Marrion Baker identified Oswald in a lineup 11/22?

[Sean Murphy]

Sean,

You're elevating the "Dougherty/Elevator" episode to absurd levels of perceived importance.

Fact is: I don't know with 100% certainty how the elevator got down from the fifth floor shortly after the assassination took place. Nor do you.

But whether it was Dougherty or wasn't Dougherty on that elevator, the movement of that elevator doesn't suddenly eliminate all of the evidence that indicates Lee Harvey Oswald murdered two people in Dallas on 11/22/63.

On the contrary, David, if it wasn't Dougherty who brought that elevator down at that time then your Lone Nut Theory is in deep trouble.

You disagree? Fine. Give us the name of another TSBD worker it could have been.

You can't, can you?

[David Von Pein]

How does the movement of an elevator on the FIFTH floor in any way affect the "Lone Nut Theory" that has Oswald shooting JFK from the SIXTH floor?

The two things aren't in any way related. Not even the same floor.

Edited July 18, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Sean Murphy]

How does the movement of an elevator on the FIFTH floor in any way affect the "Lone Nut Theory" that has Oswald shooting JFK from the SIXTH floor?

The two things aren't in any way related. Not even the same floor.

David, can you give us the name of a TSBD worker other than Jack Dougherty who could have brought down that elevator at that time? Yes or no?

[David Von Pein]

And if I can't name the person who used an elevator on the fifth floor it means that Oswald is innocent and the LN scenario goes sliding down the tubes? Is that it?

You'd better start over, Sean. Because this elevator thing goes nowhere and you know it (even if it wasn't Dougherty who used it).

[Sean Murphy]

And if I can't name the person who used an elevator on the fifth floor it means that Oswald is innocent and the LN scenario goes sliding down the tubes? Is that it?

You'd better start over, Sean. Because this elevator thing goes nowhere and you know it (even if it wasn't Dougherty who used it).

David, it's evident you can't offer the name of another TSBD worker who might have taken that elevator off the fifth floor at that time.

Okay. Where does that leave us?

Unless it was Dougherty, or unless there is some mysterious other TSBD worker whose name has somehow disappeared from the record, then it must have been someone who didn't work at the TSBD.

You disagree? Kindly explain where I've gone wrong.

[David Von Pein]

You think a conspirator was stationed on the FIFTH floor for some purpose, do you Sean? What for?

[Sean Murphy]

You think a conspirator was stationed on the FIFTH floor for some purpose, do you Sean? What for?

David, you've made it clear that you don't think it's safe to say that Jack Dougherty was the person who took that elevator off the fifth floor at that time.

The furthest you've been willing to go on that score is that it's merely a "possibility".

Now here's your problem:

Either it was Dougherty or else it must have been someone who didn't work at the TSBD.

Why? Because all other TSBD workers are accounted for at that time.

Unless of course you've suddenly thought of a hitherto unknown TSBD worker who it could have been?

If so, then we're all ears.

If not, then we need to talk about why someone who didn't work in the building might have been up there at that precise time.

[William Kelly]

You think a conspirator was stationed on the FIFTH floor for some purpose, do you Sean? What for?

David, you've made it clear that you don't think it's safe to say that Jack Dougherty was the person who took that elevator off the fifth floor at that time.

The furthest you've been willing to go on that score is that it's merely a "possibility".

Now here's your problem:

Either it was Dougherty or else it must have been someone who didn't work at the TSBD.

Why? Because all other TSBD workers are accounted for at that time.

Unless of course you've suddenly thought of a hitherto unknown TSBD worker who it could have been?

If so, then we're all ears.

If not, then we need to talk about why someone who didn't work in the building might have been up there at that precise time.

There were a lot of TSBD workers not accounted for besides Oswald and Giviens, especially those salesmen, secretaries and managers among the contractors who worked for the book companies who leased offices space on the second, third and fourth floors - among them Bobbs-Merrill, who William Harvey worked for.

Then there were truck drivers and those who had access to the rear doors and access to the first and second floor lunch rooms and restrooms, one of whom did a Sixth Floor Oral History, and described how easy it was for delivery people to drop off and pick up books from the rear delivery area.

The "Sniper's Nest" was not constructed by Oswald or the Sixth Floor Sniper, but by the floor laying crew.

It is curious that the window of opportunity for the assassin to use the Sixth Floor Sniper's Nest was limited to the forty five minute lunch break, as if the motorcade came by anytime before or after those forty-five minutes, the floor work crew and book detailers like Oswald would have had to be back to work.

If the Sixth Floor Sniper and his spotter did not work at TSBD or one of its contractors, I suspect they were Dallas law enforcement officers who merely waited around and joined in the hunt for the planted evidence and the Patsy.

BK

[Sean Murphy]

You think a conspirator was stationed on the FIFTH floor for some purpose, do you Sean? What for?

David, you've made it clear that you don't think it's safe to say that Jack Dougherty was the person who took that elevator off the fifth floor at that time.

The furthest you've been willing to go on that score is that it's merely a "possibility".

Now here's your problem:

Either it was Dougherty or else it must have been someone who didn't work at the TSBD.

Why? Because all other TSBD workers are accounted for at that time.

Unless of course you've suddenly thought of a hitherto unknown TSBD worker who it could have been?

If so, then we're all ears.

If not, then we need to talk about why someone who didn't work in the building might have been up there at that precise time.

There were a lot of TSBD workers not accounted for besides Oswald and Giviens, especially those salesmen, secretaries and managers among the contractors who worked for the book companies who leased offices space on the second, third and fourth floors - among them Bobbs-Merrill, who William Harvey worked for.

Then there were truck drivers and those who had access to the rear doors and access to the first and second floor lunch rooms and restrooms, one of whom did a Sixth Floor Oral History, and described how easy it was for delivery people to drop off and pick up books from the rear delivery area.

Everyone who was at work in the building that day was accounted for, Bill. And neither book company salesman/secretaries/managers nor truck drivers/deliverers would have had any business up on the fifth floor (or higher).

[David Von Pein]

Constructing Oswald's Sniper's Nest

Edited July 19, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Ian Kingsbury]

Constructing Oswald's Sniper's Nest

Carlier?

And Mr Krusch the man you ran a mile from.

How many twisted testimonies does take to put Oswald in the window?

David how did the killer get down the stairs without being seen

By ANYBODY?

Edited July 19, 2013 by Ian Kingsbury

[Sean Murphy]

David, you have made two things clear:

1. You believe that Jack Dougherty may have taken the west freight elevator off the fifth floor, but his chronic unreliability as a witness makes that no more than a mere "possibility".

2. You cannot offer the name of a single employee in that building other than Dougherty who could possibly have taken that elevator down.

So your own position leads us to the conclusion: either Dougherty took that elevator at that time or someone who didn't work in the building did so.

Can you offer us a credible scenario whereby someone who didn't work in that building would have been taking an elevator off the fifth floor immediately after the assassination of President Kennedy?

[David Von Pein]

Carlier? And Mr Krusch the man you ran a mile from

Why not just read the article I posted for the limited purpose it was written. I.E., Krusch himself is saying the Sniper's Nest was largely constructed by people other than Oswald. This makes it EASIER for Oswald to have done the things I think he did on 11/22, because an already-in-place "Nest" (to a large degree) was already there on the southeast side of the 6th Floor for him to use as a shield.

So why are you attempting to diss me in some way on this subject? ~shrug~

[David Von Pein]

Sean Murphy said:

David, you have made two things clear:

1. You believe that Jack Dougherty may have taken the west freight elevator off the fifth floor, but his chronic unreliability as a witness makes that no more than a mere "possibility".

2. You cannot offer the name of a single employee in that building other than Dougherty who could possibly have taken that elevator down.

So your own position leads us to the conclusion: either Dougherty took that elevator at that time or someone who didn't work in the building did so.

Can you offer us a credible scenario whereby someone who didn't work in that building would have been taking an elevator off the fifth floor immediately after the assassination of President Kennedy?

Sean,

Out of all the "possibilities" available, I'd say it was probably Jack Dougherty who took that elevator down from the fifth floor between the time Baker and Truly were calling up the shaft for an elevator to be turned loose and the time B&T got up to the fifth floor and noticed that the west elevator was not there.

I'll also add this:

Dougherty said he did NOT hear anyone yelling up the elevator shaft:

Mr. BALL - How did you come downstairs?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I used that push button elevator on the west side.

Mr. BALL - Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I didn't hear anybody yell.

But we know from Roy Truly's Warren Commission testimony that Truly DID yell the words "turn loose the elevator", with Truly testifying that he said those words "real loud...loud enough that anyone could have heard me if they had not been over stacking or making a little noise". And he yelled them "two times".

Therefore, it seems fairly clear to me that Jack Dougherty was not REAL CLOSE to those freight elevators at approximately 12:31 PM, which means he would not necessarily have been in a position to see Lee Harvey Oswald coming down the stairs from the sixth floor at just about that very same time when Truly was yelling "real loud" up that elevator shaft -- a loud yell that Dougherty never heard.

Now, you can argue that maybe Dougherty was hard of hearing, and that's why he failed to hear Roy Truly's "real loud" request to turn loose the elevator. But from the available testimony, it seems pretty obvious to me that Jack Dougherty was not within earshot of Truly's yells. Which means, ergo, that Dougherty was probably somewhere else on the fifth floor, further away from the elevators/stairway, when Truly was yelling and when Oswald was descending.

But, yes, to reiterate -- it probably was Jack Dougherty who took that elevator downstairs.

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by David Von Pein

[Sean Murphy]

David, you have made two things clear:

1. You believe that Jack Dougherty may have taken the west freight elevator off the fifth floor, but his chronic unreliability as a witness makes that no more than a mere "possibility".

2. You cannot offer the name of a single employee in that building other than Dougherty who could possibly have taken that elevator down.

So your own position leads us to the conclusion: either Dougherty took that elevator at that time or someone who didn't work in the building did so.

Can you offer us a credible scenario whereby someone who didn't work in that building would have been taking an elevator off the fifth floor immediately after the assassination of President Kennedy?

Sean,

Out of all the "possibilities" available, I'd say it was probably Jack Dougherty who took that elevator down from the fifth floor between the time Baker and Truly were calling up the shaft for an elevator to be turned loose and the time B&T got up to the fifth floor and noticed that the west elevator was not there.

I'll also add this:

Dougherty said he did NOT hear anyone yelling up the elevator shaft:

Mr. BALL - How did you come downstairs?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I used that push button elevator on the west side.

Mr. BALL - Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I didn't hear anybody yell.

But we know from Roy Truly's Warren Commission testimony that Truly DID yell the words "turn loose the elevator", with Truly testifying that he said those words "real loud...loud enough that anyone could have heard me if they had not been over stacking or making a little noise". And he yelled them "two times"

.

Therefore, it seems fairly clear to me that Jack Dougherty was not REAL CLOSE to those freight elevators at approximately 12:31 PM, which means he would not necessarily have been in a position to see Lee Harvey Oswald coming down the stairs from the sixth floor at just about that very same time when Truly was yelling "real loud" up that elevator shaft -- a loud yell that Dougherty never heard.

Now, you can argue that maybe Dougherty was hard of hearing, and that's why he failed to hear Roy Truly's "real loud" request to turn loose the elevator. But from the available testimony, it seems pretty obvious to me that Jack Dougherty was not within earshot of Truly's yells. Which means, ergo, that Dougherty was probably somewhere else on the fifth floor, further away from the elevators/stairway, when Truly was yelling and when Oswald was descending.

But, yes, to reiterate -- it probably was Jack Dougherty who took that elevator downstairs.

So, having had the full implications of your trashing of Jack Dougherty's testimony spelled out, you have suddenly and arbitrarily moved away from deeming his descent in the elevator merely "possible" and started describing it as "probable". Jack's testimony, it seems, can be pretty much relied upon after all.

Predictable--and hilariously shameless--backtracking, David!