Robert Prudhomme Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) Interesting. I just searched online in the Dallas White Pages for Joseph R. Molina. The first thing that popped up was a listing for a Joseph R. Molina, Jr., aged 65. I tried the number just a few minutes ago. No one answered so I left a message. Joseph Molina was in the service during WW II, which would make him just a bit older than my father, who turned 16 in 1945. As I am now 59, it is perfectly logical for Joe Molina to have a son 65 years old. I sincerely hope he is able to assist us, and can provide us with a photo of his father from 1963, if he is indeed the son of our Joe Molina. Edited March 23, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanessa Loney Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Hi Bob - I think any further clarification of who was where on the steps can only be a good thing so I would be interested to know how you go. Having said that, I agree with Lee that the important step now is to seek clarification of the relevant films so we can get a definitive answer one way or the other. I would support anything that can be done to make that happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Boylan Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Maybe James Richards has a photo of Molina circa 1963. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 It is not "thin evidence", Bob. It's an educated guess. Like I said in my post where I made the "educated guess", Molina was a "bookkeeper" at the TSBD. A professional. A white collar worker. Therefore, I cannot believe he would turn up at work wearing a sports shirt. In 1963 he would have been wearing a shirt and tie. No question about it. It was an expectation. Now, do WE KNOW FOR CERTAIN that he WAS NOT wearing a sports shirt? No. Do WE KNOW FOR CERTAIN he WAS wearing a shirt and tie? No. For all WE KNOW he may have been wearing a cocktail dress. What we do know for certain is there are UNIDENTIFIED people on those steps who appear in Altgens and who are wearing shirts and ties. He was allegedly stood next to Otis Williams, his best work bud, who would have also been wearing a shirt and tie. However... COULD Joe Molina be PRAYERMAN. YES. Is it LIKELY that Joe Molina is Prayerman. NO. How will we ever know who Prayerman is? Get 4K scans of the original Darnell, Weigman and Towner films. Then we'll know. Lee In his Warren Commission testimony, Joe Molina states he was standing next to Otis Williams. "Mr. BALL. Did you go out on the street to see the motorcade? Mr. MOLINA. Yes. I was standing on the front steps. Mr. BALL. With whom? Mr. MOLINA. Right next left of me was Mr. Williams and close to there was Mrs. Sanders. Mr. BALL. Pauline Sanders. Mr. MOLINA. Yes. Mr. BALL. Did you see Roy Truly? Mr. MOLINA. Yes; he was standing with Mr. Campbell; they were going out to lunch. Mr. BALL. They were in front of you were they? Mr. MOLINA. Yes." Unfortunately, Otis Williams did not testify to the WC. He did, though, swear a statement on March 19, 1964, which can be found here: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0357a.htm In that statement, he cannot recall who was standing to either side of him but, he does recall standing on the top step. I both Williams and Molina were standing on the top step, would they be visible in the shadows of the entrance seen in Altgens 6, especially Molina? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hocking Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Do we know who the individual is to BWF's left in the following frame - one step down from the top? My money would be it is the same guy stood behind Billy Lovelady in Altgens 6 whose face is partially obscured by shadow (who is wearing a shirt and tie) Lee, There were very likely three men in suit and tie on the entrance steps when the Limo passed the TSBD: BookKeeper Supervisor Otis Williams Credit Manager Joe Molina TSBD Manager William Shelley A few other notes: Otis Williams and Pauline Sanders testimony places them on the East side of the entrance steps. Joe Molina testified he was standing with them. We know Shelley is gone from the steps by the time this photo was taken, so the two remaining candidates should be Williams or Molina. It should also be noted that Shirley Martin wrote a letter to Harold Weisberg dated July 8, 1967 revealing Molina claimed to be wearing a suit that day he was on the steps. My url to that letter is corrupted, but it is in the jfk.hood.edu collection that contains the Weisberg material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hocking Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Thanks for the url, Lee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) Found this on Fetzer's site: "By Texas standards,Molina is a very short and portly man, perhaps barely five feet tall. His work attire as Credit Manager consisted of a dress shirt and tie. Molina “took up a positionon the top step of the entrance of the TSBD for the purpose of watching the Presidential Motorcade” (CE1381, pg 66). He also testified before the Warren Commission on 4/7/64, and 25 years later was interviewed by the Dallas Morning News on 11/20/88 in observance of the 25th anniversary of the assassination. He has never been interviewed or spoken in public since." If PM and Frazier are both standing on the top step, as both testified Molina and Frazier testified to being, PM is obviously a foot shorter than Frazier. As Frazier testified to being six feet tall, this would make PM five feet tall; exactly the height Fetzer claims Molina was. Edited March 23, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Mitcham Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Found this on Fetzer's site: "By Texas standards,Molina is a very short and portly man, perhaps barely five feet tall. His work attire as Credit Manager consisted of a dress shirt and tie. Molina “took up a positionon the top step of the entrance of the TSBD for the purpose of watching the Presidential Motorcade” (CE1381, pg 66). He also testified before the Warren Commission on 4/7/64, and 25 years later was interviewed by the Dallas Morning News on 11/20/88 in observance of the 25th anniversary of the assassination. He has never been interviewed or spoken in public since." If PM and Frazier are both standing on the top step, as both testified Molina and Frazier testified to being, PM is obviously a foot shorter than Frazier. As Frazier testified to being six feet tall, this would make PM five feet tall; exactly the height Fetzer claims Molina was. Is Prayerman dressed in a dress shirt and tie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 This comes as a bit of a surprise but, it may very well be that Joe Molina is still alive. This is entirely possible, as my sources tell me that he was 39 at the time of the assassination, which would make him either 91 or 92 today. While a search of the Dallas White Pages quickly turned up a Joseph R. Molina, Jr., aged 65, further looking revealed a Joe R. Molina, Sr., aged 65+. I know it may be hoping too much to expect these are the people we are looking for but, one never knows. I tried phoning both numbers, but only got an answering machine. I composed a letter to the younger Molina, which I shall post this afternoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Hi Lee, http://www67.zippyshare.com/v/qrSuecED/file.html This is from a different source than the Groden DVD. Brought this to Sean M's attention back in 2007, but at that time, he, along with a few others, were working on a film syncing project. In the past, I've made comments to the effect that the arm position would appear to be of one holding a camera, just couldn't quite tell from "lack of quality" if that was the object indeed. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 CE 2036 (7/20/64) provides the following information for Joseph Rodriguez Molina: Sex: Male Race: White Age: 40 Years Born: June 18, 1924, at Dallas, Texas Height: 5' 71/2" Weight: 164 pounds Eyes: Brown Hair: Brown, graying, balding in front Build: Stocky Complexion: Fair Marks and Scars: Large mole in left eyebrow Wife: Soledad Molina Children: Joe Molina, Jr., aged 17; John Molina, aged 10; Linda Molina, aged 14; and adopted daughter Sylvia, aged 14 Education: Crozier Technical High School, Dallas Military Service: U. S. Navy, 1943-46, NSN 1891658 Residence: 4306 Brown, Dallas, Texas That cinches it. On the listing I found for Joe R. Molina, Sr., it also listed a Soledad P., who now turns out to be his wife. Odd that his height is listed as 5' 7 1/2", while his weight is only given as 164 lbs. From all accounts, he was rather portly, yet 164 lbs. is not really an excessive weight for a man that tall. I wonder where Fetzer got the idea he was only five feet tall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hume Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) Post deleted. Edited March 24, 2015 by Tom Hume Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanessa Loney Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Hi Bob Firstly, can I thank you for raising the importance of Bill Kelly's PM thread and giving it some prominence on here. I think it's vital we finally get some resolution on who PM is. My question in regards to PM being Joe Molina (or anyone other than Oswald) is, why didn't any of his co-workers identify him? Not one. This complete blank on the part of the employees heading back into the building, who can clearly see PM, is telling. If it was Joe Molina why not say so? The thing that sticks out to me like a sore thumb about PM is that no-one saw him at all that day. And no-one saw a TSBD employee standing there either. These two facts together indicate to me that we are not even meant to think about going there. And there must be a very good reason for that. If even one TSBD employee had said "Yeah there was some guy in the corner but he wasn't from the TSBD" then I would say that we would have a more normal set of witnesses to deal with. But no-one.....? Anyway, I think at this point that the only way to know for certain is to get the films examined. I'd appreciate your views Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Hi Bob Firstly, can I thank you for raising the importance of Bill Kelly's PM thread and giving it some prominence on here. I think it's vital we finally get some resolution on who PM is. My question in regards to PM being Joe Molina (or anyone other than Oswald) is, why didn't any of his co-workers identify him? Not one. This complete blank on the part of the employees heading back into the building, who can clearly see PM, is telling. If it was Joe Molina why not say so? The thing that sticks out to me like a sore thumb about PM is that no-one saw him at all that day. And no-one saw a TSBD employee standing there either. These two facts together indicate to me that we are not even meant to think about going there. And there must be a very good reason for that. If even one TSBD employee had said "Yeah there was some guy in the corner but he wasn't from the TSBD" then I would say that we would have a more normal set of witnesses to deal with. But no-one.....? Anyway, I think at this point that the only way to know for certain is to get the films examined. I'd appreciate your views Bob. Hi Vanessa It gets even worse than that. Neither Frazier or Molina saw Baker, a motorcycle cop in a white helmet, run up the stairs and enter the TSBD. In fact, the only witness I can find, outside of Lovelady and Shelley (who changed their story every time they told it), who saw anyone with Roy Truly was Eddie Piper, and he said the man could have been an FBI agent. Do you see how bizarre this whole thing is? No one saw PM, and no one saw Baker. What really happened on the steps that day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanessa Loney Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Hi Bob Yes, it's definitely bizarre - that's for sure. My own 2 cents is that the mystery explaining the deafening silence around these witnesses is that they saw Baker speak to Oswald - maybe even on the steps themselves - and that's when Truly vouched for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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