Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Chris Davidson]

http://www45.zippyshare.com/v/vwjJU2G5/file.html

Oswald, Lovelady and ? in the interrogation room together.

chris

[Greg Parker]

I wonder of Sangers may have been inserted as a replacement for DPD Special Services offices or City Hall?

[Vanessa Loney]

Very, very good points Lee.

[Brad Milch]

I can foresee Darnell's TSBD entrance film being added to the list of suspected visual victims of alteration. It looks like he may have captured something in regards to Officer Baker & PM that was cut out of his film. That possibility, in itself, will add fuel to the fire that the assassination was being directed by 'Conspiracy Central' personnel; why would Dallas local or national TV news directors monkey around with news film footage of a police officer & spectators responding to the shooting immediately after the crime occurred?

One answer is Double Jeopardy: one can't broadcast on TV images of a person innocently standing at the TSBD entrance while also broadcasting accusations that the same person is at the same time a Presidential shooter 6 floors above the same building . Not even Scotty or Spock could beam someone that fast.

Initial & subsequent TV broadcasts of Darnell's film might tell us more; it might even produce what was spliced out.

I also see the seeds being planted as to why Oswald left the TSBD & armed himself. For those who don't see it yet, here's a hint:

(for the sake of argument, PM = LHO). LHO either knows something about the ambush or doesn't. After the shots are fired, a motorcycle officer runs towards him at the TSBD entrance with the officer's gun drawn. LHO believes he is about to be shot. LHO ducks inside the TSBD & Baker/Truly pursue him. LHO evades both & gets out of Dodge & arms himself, believing the police want to kill him.

I'm open to a lot of possibilities of what actually happened at the TSBD entrance following the ambush, who was there, who did what in regards to Officer Baker & Truly & how each entered the TSBD. The official WC story smells.

BM

Edited March 24, 2015 by Brad Milch

[Robert Prudhomme]

I think a lot hinges on whether or not Baker actually even entered the TSBD by the front entrance. The maddening thing about the Couch film is that, just as Baker gets within a few feet of the steps, Couch is distracted and swings his camera back over to Elm St.

We ASSUME Baker then runs up the stairs and is followed by Roy Truly, who magically knows somehow that Baker is looking for a way to the roof, but we don't actually see this happening. However, we are told by the WC this happened and, like so many other facets of this case, the initial brainwashing was done so well, we still cling to their story. Oddly enough, there does not seem to be anyone on the steps who saw this Baker enter the TSB, either.

As I stated in the other thread, Lee, let us by all means get the proper photo analysis done to establish PM's ID PLUS the ID of everyone else on the steps. In the meantime, though, let us keep looking down the rabbit hole, as I believe Richard Nixon was correct when he said the coverup was the greatest hoax of the 20th Century.

[Chris Davidson]

Chris,

If I didn't know better - - I'd say that was the elusive JOE MOLINA. Only it cannot be JOE MOLINA because at this point it time MOLINA was at SANGERS meeting EDDIE PIPER.

Unless, of course, MOLINA served up a complete crock. Which, let's face it - - is LIKELY.

It could be someone from City Hall but based upon the photograph from the DMN it certainly looks like MOLINA to me.

If it is then I don't know what the hell is going on. It's far too early in the morning here to even digest this as a possibility.

After a couple of cups of coffee I'd like to state that I'm stopping the guessing games name now.

They lead nowhere and just create more and more confusion around an already complicated issue.

It's time to DEFINITIVELY ANSWER THE QUESTION and END THIS.

Lee,

My intent was not to create more confusion.

I know from other versions of this same footage, this gentleman is cropped out.

Same concept as the Weigman frame I posted, compared to Groden's version, everything to Lovelady's left has been cropped out.

No need to speculate, just file it in the cabinet, possibly for future reference.

I've always been in favor of obtaining the most original material possible, so I do support the effort.

chris

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hi Chris

The photo from the DMN you speak of, is that the one I posted that was taken 25 years after the assassination?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Classic overkill included in original questioning of Joe Molina:

"On November 22, 1963 Mr. Molina got to work about 7:00 am. He went to his office on the Second Floor. He stayed there until around 11:45 am. HE DID NOT SEE OSWALD. He ate his lunch in the coffee room on the third floor and then went outside and stood on the first step of the Commerce Street entrance. This was about 12:15 pm. He states that heard three shots; he did not know where they came from. Mr. Molina then went down the embankment toward Commerce Street, saw officers closing the gate to the parking lot to the west of the School Book Depository building. Mr. Truly then went back into the building and stayed on the first floor. HE STILL DID NOT SEE OSWALD. Mr. Molina states he was on the steps with Mr. Shelly [sic], Mrs. Stanton, Mr. Reed, Mr. Sanders and EDDIE PIPER."

Why was it necessary to get Molina to reiterate that "HE STILL DID NOT SEE OSWALD" after talking about Mr. Truly going back in the building?

From memory didn't they get Truly himself to say the same thing? That he "STILL DID NOT SEE OSWALD" when he went back inside the front doors?

http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190275/m1/1/sizes/m/?q=joe%20molina

Hi Lee

Are you as suspicious as I am of these FBI "reports", written in the 3rd person and God only knows if the subject signed or even saw these reports? I sincerely hope these are not admissible as evidence in an American court room, as I'm sure our judges in Canada would not take a second look at them, and would tell the investigators to get a proper signed statement from the witness.

[Chris Davidson]

Hi Chris

The photo from the DMN you speak of, is that the one I posted that was taken 25 years after the assassination?

Robert,

Lee referred to the DMN photo of Molina.

You'll have to get a clarification from him.

chris

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hi Chris

The photo from the DMN you speak of, is that the one I posted that was taken 25 years after the assassination?

That's the one I was referencing.

Pity, I thought you'd found another photo of Mr. Molina.

[Mark Knight]

OK...so if the Sixth Floor Museum controls the original of the films in question...and forum member Gary Mack is still in a position of authority at the Museum...

...then maybe it's time to petition Mr. Mack to allow a qualified team of professionals--and I'm NOT one--to examine the originals, under highly controlled conditions, and do as Lee Farley has suggested to see if we can positively identify the Prayer Man figure and put the question to rest, if that's possible.

I know Gary Mack reads the threads here. I'm appealing to Mr. Mack to help in the search for truth. If Prayer man can be positively be identified as someone other than Oswald--to a reasonabe certainty--then of course no harm will come th the Sixth Floor Museum's position. And if Prayer Man can be positively identified as Oswald, the Sixth Floor Museum grabs the glory as having brought the truth to light.

That's a win/win position, Mr. Mack. I appeal to your sense of decency to not stand in the way of the search for truth. The truth sets us all free...whether Prayer Man is Oswald or not.

[Brad Milch]

An admirable & honorable request, Mark. However, when it comes to GM, some view him as a person who wouldn't respond to such a petition.

Darnell & Couch, if still alive, could tell us more. They surely shared their assassination experiences with people they knew. They shot the films we are analyzing, they would know what's real, what's not & what's missing. Family, friends & associates might know some of their story.

I do respect GM's right to opinions (as I do all EF members). He seems to push 'Oswald did it' in the TV documentaries & YouTube videos. Like me, he wasn't there.

BM

Edited March 27, 2015 by Brad Milch

[Gene Kelly]

Brad:

To add some fuel to this fire, I'm reminded that Officer Baker allegedly arrived very quickly at the TSBD steps. A world record for diagnosing the roots of a crime and responding. I've read some speculation that he was, in fact, dispatched to kill the patsy. It certyainly is a plausible explanation for why Oswald subsequently left the TSBD & armed himself.

Along with Westbrook and Hill, Baker now becomes another DPD person of interest for me. I wonder what became of him, and whether he prospered in the aftermath?

Gene

[Darren Hastings]

Hi all,

I've been lurking here for years as a guest and only recently signed up as previously no new members were being accepted.

I've had email correspondence with Gary Mack in the past regarding a trip I took to Dallas recently. Anyway, I emailed him and directed him to the requests made by Lee, Mark et al above. He replied and requested I post his reply. Here it is in full.

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Hello Darren,

Please accept my apology for not getting back to you ahead of your Dallas visit....the last few months have been very difficult and I remain on disability leave. Too bad about the weather, but I hope you and your wife still enjoyed your visit.

I sent PMs and an email to Lee Farley and Carmine Savastano about the films issue but never heard back. Here's what I would have told them:

Of the films in question, The Sixth Floor Museum only owns one: Towner.

NBC owns the original Wiegman film but when producers of JFK: Death in Dealey Plaza asked them for it 12 years ago (at my request), NBC could only locate a 1960s-era video tape of it. We wound up using, I think, a 1963/1964 theatrical newsreel version held by UCLA.

NBC took the original Wiegman and Darnell films from the Dallas NBC affiliate to New York following the assassination weekend. Whether the network still has the original Darnell film is unknown, but as a former employee I know the affiliate does not have it or a copy. Nor does Jimmy Darnell.

Fortunately, a first-generation 16mm copy print was made in Dallas over that weekend and it is in the Museum's collection; however, the Museum cannot do anything with it until copyright issues are resolved. It'll happen, and sooner rather than later.

A 4K, high res scan of the Towner film was made under my supervision, with Tina's permission, four years ago at the Library of Congress. Every frame of the TSBD doorway was blurred due to the panning motion of her camera. In my opinion, the film would be useless in any effort to ID Prayer Man.

So there you have it. I'm very much in favor of using technology to learn new information from films and photos and so is the Museum. In fact, that Library of Congress scanning session was set up and funded by the producers of JFK: The Lost Bullet.

The Museum's only concern was the safety of the films during the process and in transit, and also to own the rights to the resulting scans of the films it already owns.

Such a study might well be the subject of a future TV doc, and I have discussed the idea with producers in the past.

By the way, I do not get paid anything for TV appearances, for that would be a serious conflict of interest in the museum field and I would likely be terminated for doing so. And despite what others have been saying, I only have a five-figure salary and I'm far from being some kind of millionaire.

Gary Mack

P.S. After reviewing the above information, I'll ask you to consider putting it on one or more newsgroups for reference. Thanks.

[Brad Milch]

What I believe would help the researchers & other interested parties that participate in EF JFK threads or visit them is hearing directly from living witnesses or those who have first hand information about their JFK assassination experiences here at EF without intermediaries. I'm reminded of a promo I viewed at YouTube not long ago attempting to get the living witnesses, family, friends or associates involved in the C-130 flight that transported both JFK's parade car & the SS Queen Mary out of Dallas to contact several noted JFK researchers. It was a simple, homemade production & I don't know at the moment how effective it was.

Perhaps something along those lines could direct living witnesses or associates of those deceased to communicate with the global public here at EF. Not all living witnesses will want to discuss the assassination for free.

Some living witnesses seem to have put the assassination behind them. Some might still be fearful to discuss the event. Inviting those witnesses to EF may not be an easy undertaking. Some witnesses are suspicious of JFK researchers; in the Marie Tippit interview posted at the 6th Floor Museum's YouTube playlist page, Marie states she believes those who challenge the 'Oswald did it' judgment are doing so only for 'seeking publicity' purposes. Living witnesses suspicious of the intentions of JFK researchers are probably not going to discuss the assassination anywhere online.

I do know this: a topic such as 'PM is LHO' could not be discussed in High Schools I attended in the mid to late 1960's. Doing so would earn a student a lecture about supporting Communist propaganda & threats of suspension (not to mention Hoover's FBI starting a file on the student or the school; a possibility educators were fearful of at the time). I know this personally after giving oral book reports on 'Rush To Judgment' & 'Six Seconds In Dallas'. EF is miles ahead in freedom of speech compared to 'back in the day' when I was back there.

As Gene Kelly said above, there was a very real possibility that LHO was targeted to be killed at the TSBD. It would have made for a 'cleaner' story: sniper shoots JFK & entourage & is shot & killed while attempting to escape. Killer's rifle, spent shells & fingerprints found in the sniper's nest. Something along those lines.

It would appear that someone messed up big time to allow LHO the opportunity to proclaim his innocence on TV & global newspapers if he was supposed to be eliminated in the TSBD following JFK's ambush.

That might be the logical next step to take this thread from the TSBD front entrance to LHO's journey to his rooming house to arm himself.

BM

Edited March 27, 2015 by Brad Milch