Darren Hastings Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Yes, you posted as I was typing. Sorry. If PM is 3ft further back than Lovelady then we still have a perspective issue. I'm sure someone with a mathematics background can explain it better than I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 But, as I pointed out, PM was not plastered against the glass door. He had his back almost up against the western side of the entrance, and that would rob a great deal of the three feet landing distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Youy're quite right Darren. A lot od dimensions are knowable including the location of the camera and therefore simple projections should give the proper heights of persons, with an error margin of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanessa Loney Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Now Bob, no need to get tetchy. I'm obviously at a disadvantage here because I can't see the GIF we're talking about. Let me have a think and a ponder and I'll get back to you asap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Hastings Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) Further thoughts on the perspective differences making PM appear shorter than Lovelady. I request forum members look at a flat surface (I used the top of a refrigerator as it is 2ft deep) and place their head 4ft below(1) the top of it and position yourself say 30ft away. Because you are looking up at it you have to agree that even with the difference of 2ft that the back of the refrigerator appears considerably shorter than the front despite the fact we KNOW they are the same height. Hope that helps people visualise what I am trying to explain. (1) - The 4ft is chosen as it is the MINIMUM difference between the height of the camera (max 6ft....most likely lower) versus Loveladys head (4ft of steps + 5'8" of Lovelady) Edited April 7, 2015 by Darren Hastings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Lloyd Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I suspect that PM was standing a step down from the top landing. Could PM be William Shelley? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Lloyd Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Is he?... Mr. SHELLEY - In my office next to Mr. Truly's and 1 ate part of it which I do usually and finish up later on in the day but I went outside then to the front,Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the front?Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them.Mr. BALL - And who was out there?Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.Mr. BALL - You were standing where?Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance? Mr. SHELLEY - yes. Whilst I accept that possibly contradicts what I said, it's possible that he could have moved down a step to get a better look down Elm Street? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanessa Loney Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Thanks for your comments Ian. PM can't be Shelley. Shelley is clearly pictured in films/photos from that day wearing a white business shirt and a tie and suit pants and sometimes his suit jacket. PM is wearing a darkish coloured shirt and no tie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Lloyd Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Hi Vanessa, I didn't realise that Shelley had been definitively identified in photographs. Just wondering if he really would have been wearing shirt & tie, etc... Mr. BALL - Where had you been working?Mr. SHELLEY - I had been on the sixth floor with the boys laying that floor that morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanessa Loney Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Hi Ian Just google 'Bill Shelley' and click on images. He's the one in the suit being escorted by the police. There's also plenty of other photos of him on that page in just shirt and tie. Shelley was a supervisor so I'd be surprised if he was helping in the physical work of laying the floor and he certainly wasn't dressed for it that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Lloyd Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Hi Vanessa, Yes, I recall many people speculating regarding Shelly being depicted in that photograph but I didn't realise it had been definitively concluded that it was him. I cannot find anything absolutely conclusive in the Google images that the photograph you refer to actually depicts Shelley. Yes, he was a supervisor so may well have been wearing a shirt & tie etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Hi Vanessa, I didn't realise that Shelley had been definitively identified in photographs. Just wondering if he really would have been wearing shirt & tie, etc... Mr. BALL - Where had you been working? Mr. SHELLEY - I had been on the sixth floor with the boys laying that floor that morning. Ian, at least one other was quoted as saying he came up periodically to check, and that they took smoke breaks when he wasn't around. To be honest, I don't recall which one of them said it, and under what circumstances it was said, but maybe someone else can jump in and provide those details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Hi Vanessa, I didn't realise that Shelley had been definitively identified in photographs. Just wondering if he really would have been wearing shirt & tie, etc... Mr. BALL - Where had you been working? Mr. SHELLEY - I had been on the sixth floor with the boys laying that floor that morning. Ian, at least one other was quoted as saying he came up periodically to check, and that they took smoke breaks when he wasn't around. To be honest, I don't recall which one of them said it, and under what circumstances it was said, but maybe someone else can jump in and provide those details. I think someone also suggested he had moved from the steps before the shots were taken. I can't vouch for how firmly that was established though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Considering the top step was only three feet wide, there sure seems to have been a lot of people standing up there. So far, we have Joe Molina, Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley testifying to being on the top step, along with several other people. Then we are able to see in film that PM and Wesley Frazier are standing on the top step, even though Frazier testified to standing one step down from the top step. How did so many people fit on the narrow top step? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Now Bob, no need to get tetchy. I'm obviously at a disadvantage here because I can't see the GIF we're talking about. Let me have a think and a ponder and I'll get back to you asap. Hi Vanessa, See if you can download it from this site. http://www.filedropper.com/pm chris P.S. Nothing personal, but I'd rather stick to uploading to one file hosting site. ZippyShare appears to work fine for the majority here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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