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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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Shelley is eliminated by his testimony

Shelley's testimony is suspect on many counts, but I don't think he's Prayer Man because of the clothing differences.

It seems you can barely make out Prayer Man's t-shirt or bare chest under his dark shirt.

Shelley was wearing a suit and tie that day.

--Tommy :sun

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Considering the top step was only three feet wide, there sure seems to have been a lot of people standing up there. So far, we have Joe Molina, Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley testifying to being on the top step, along with several other people. Then we are able to see in film that PM and Wesley Frazier are standing on the top step, even though Frazier testified to standing one step down from the top step.

How did so many people fit on the narrow top step?

Maybe it's a case of "Top step" vs. "Landing," and different people referring to them in different ways

--Tommy :sun

Then it would be even more crowded, as that step would only be a foot wide.

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Look folks, there is something definitely wrong here. Look at this photo again:

willis10crop.jpg

From what I am being told about the gif. of Lovelady and PM, PM looks shorter because he is backed up against the glass of the entrance, and Lovelady is out toward the front edge of the landing. Perspective makes PM appear shorter than he really is, right?

So, if Wesley Frazier is six feet tall, and appears to be close to the glass, too, in the photo above, can perspective make him look almost a foot taller than PM, if PM is Oswald and supposedly 5'9" tall?

Just a few posts back, we were using Frazier's obvious height to identify him in this photo. Funny how quickly things change.

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Considering the top step was only three feet wide, there sure seems to have been a lot of people standing up there. So far, we have Joe Molina, Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley testifying to being on the top step, along with several other people. Then we are able to see in film that PM and Wesley Frazier are standing on the top step, even though Frazier testified to standing one step down from the top step.

How did so many people fit on the narrow top step?

Maybe it's a case of "Top step" vs. "Landing," and different people referring to them in different ways

--Tommy :sun

Then it would be even more crowded, as that step would only be a foot wide.

When some people said they were standing on the "top step," maybe they were standing on the landing, instead. Whereas when others said they were standing on the "top step," maybe they really were standing on the top step (which was, by definition, just below the landing).

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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The sharper Wiegman frame posted by Chris is the online version

It is cropped at the sides.

From the Weisberg Archive

Gary Mack quote:
NBC owns the original Wiegman film but when producers of JFK: Death in Dealey Plaza asked them for it 12 years ago (at my request), NBC could only locate a 1960s-era video tape of it. We wound up using, I think, a 1963/1964 theatrical newsreel version held by UCLA.

Wiegman%20scancrop.jpg

Weisberg%2BArchive%2Bsmall%2Bversion.jpg

Edited by Robin Unger
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God, this is frustrating. PM looks so close in these photos, I just want to reach out and grab him by the scruff of the neck and ask him, "Who the h*ll are you??"

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Madie_Reese.jpg

Madie_Reese.jpg

Thanks for posting this photo Robin. In the photo where Maddie Reese and others are coming out of the TSBD and the door is being held open by the police officer we can see a number of things.

I think we can see here that the police officer who is opening the door is having to stand on the step down from the top landing to do it and his other foot seems to be resting behind him. Also we can see that when the door is opened it reaches all the way out to the edge of the landing.

We can also see that anyone going in and out the TSBD door is in close proximity to where PM would have been standing. He would have been clearly visible to them. Perhaps even in the way a bit.

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Yes Vanessa

If the top landing was approx 1-meter deep

i think that the end of the glass door when open, would probably just miss hitting the grab rail

Looking at all the William Allen photo's

the top landing looks just wide enough to take two people ( when one of them is standing just behind the other )

mURI_temp_ffd872dd.jpg

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Is it just me, or does PM disappear from some of these visuals, only to reappear in others?

Also, wasn't LHO supposed to be dressed in a t-shirt when he was seen after the shooting by a woman TSBD office worker? PM is not dressed in a t-shirt in the Wiegman, Darnell, Couch films.

BM

Edited by Brad Milch
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Yes Vanessa

If the top landing was approx 1-meter deep

i think that the end of the glass door when open, would probably just miss hitting the grab rail

Looking at all the William Allen photo's

the top landing looks just wide enough to take two people ( when one of them is standing just behind the other )

mURI_temp_ffd872dd.jpg

Thanks Robin. I think it was a tight fit to get in the door if you were going up the left side of the steps. There is not enough room to stand on the top landing and open the door towards you. No wonder they modified the entrance and made it deeper. I don't think it would meet modern OH&S. :)

Maybe it's the angle the photo was taken at but in the Madie Reese photo the police officer is blocking our view of the radiator inside the TSBD. We can see this radiator behind PM in Weigman. It looks as though PM was closer to the wall than the police officer even though the PO looks pretty close but is it also possible PM was 2 steps down from the top landing thus giving us a better view of the radiator?

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Is it just me, or does PM disappear from some of these visuals, only to reappear in others?

Also, wasn't LHO supposed to be dressed in a t-shirt when he was seen after the shooting by a woman TSBD office worker? PM is not dressed in a t-shirt in the Wiegman, Darnell, Couch films.

BM

That was Mrs Reid. I believe she got on board with her boss, Mr Truly (who penciled her name in the margin of his statement) by changing the time she had seen Oswald to corroborate the 2nd floor myth.

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Howdy Greg:

With the research work put into this thread & also at ROKC, I'm beginning to wonder if LHO even went to work at the TSBD on Friday, Nov 22 1963. His own words on TV tell me he was there, but much, if not all of what's been fed to the public about LHO's Friday activities pre-arrest appears to a host of researchers to have been fabricated. It wouldn't surprise me if LHO was sent out to the Texas Theatre on a 'popcorn & Good 'n Plenty candy run' & his employers simply told DPD to bust him at the theatre.

I do remember another forum that sank doing some face matching of LHO out in the street crowd. This was before Sean Murphy & Bill Kelly spotted PM. The LHO those folks were searching for was dressed in a white T-shirt (based on now suspect statements). Someone thought they spotted LHO in the Cooper or Cook films talking to a 3-wheeler DPD officer positioned near the TSBD entrance.

BM

edited to better express what I was thinking at the time

Edited by Brad Milch
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Howdy Greg:

Don't read me wrong, please.

Those who have travelled this entire thread have questions. Questions eventually lead to answers. Ignorance vs. education = knowledge. It may come as a surprise to some, but the first humans to wear high heels were wealthy men.

What I proposed is to help, not hamper.

BM

Brad, I didn't mean to indicate in any way shape or form your question was out of line or inappropriate. My reply was merely my opinion -- tho fwiw, I think it may be one shared with a some others, including Sean M. In fact, it may well have been Sean's suggestion to start with. In any case, there are a 2 or 3 reasons to doubt her, including who saw her/who didn't see her/who she failed to see during the relevant time-frame.

Edited by Greg Parker
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