Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Vanessa Loney]

Vanessa said:

Tommy, why do you think Oswald went inside to get his lunch after the shots? Sorry, I've probably missed a lot.

I find it incredibly coincidental that Oswald said he had his lunch out on the steps with Shelley and lo and behold, there is an Oswald-type lunch left on the steps right next to where PM was standing.

Who else on the TSBD steps actually said they ate their lunch on the steps that day? Maybe Molina? IIRC all the rest claimed they ate before or after being on the steps.

I think it's not unreasonable to assume that whoever left that lunch on the steps actually ate out there. Otherwise it's an odd spot for someone to leave their rubbish if they'd eaten their lunch elsewhere. Why not dump it in the building's rubbish bin if they were going back inside?

I know I've got a bee in my bonnet about the lunch but it's one of those dot-connecting things that I think forms part of the whole picture and tends to confirm that Oswald is PM.

I totally agree with you, Vanessa! It's just a little more than coincidental that we find that pop bottle and some sort of napkin or wrapper there on the steps where PM /LHO was standing! What appeared to me at first to be crinkled napkin around the bottle, i suddenly realized had the look, not of an opaque white napkin, but of the grayish semi-transparent look of crinkled waxed paper with it's charactestic white lines where the crinkles are! Low and behold one of the items confiscated from Beckley i think it was, was some brand of waxed paper - apparently this was pre-Saran wrap days and he usually wrapped his sandwhich in waxed paper. So I'm convinced that's his lunchtime garbage that he had to leave there when all hell broke loose.

Just a reminder from someone born in '56, of what crumpled waxed paper looks like - I've actually met some young people who don't know what waxed paper is or what it looks like!

Hi Linda - apologies, I meant to get back to you earlier than this.

There are actually much better Allen photos back on SM's thread where the item beside the bottle looks a lot more like a paper bag. If I have time tomorrow I'll have a look and see if I can find the page number.

[Vanessa Loney]

Robert, I've bounced all over the place on what - if anything he is holding. I have always had some doubt he ever owned the IR. Camera doesn't have to be an IR - if it is a camera at all.

Agreed, Greg. Nowhere has it been shown that Oswald possessed an Imperial reflex.

For somebody like Oswald, allegedly interested in photography, he wouldn't have chosen such a cheap camera, anyway.

Agreed, Ray. One has only to look at one of the other cameras he owned, or at least were found in his possessions at the Paine residence, to grasp the full meaning of your statement.

Pictured above is a Stereo Realist camera, manufactured by the David White Company from 1947 to 1971.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereo_Realist

This camera exposed two images on 35 mm film, from slightly different angles, and allowed a person to view his photos in three dimensions in a stereoscopic viewer. Wouldn't Oswald have much preferred to view himself in the BYP's in 3D?

Of course, then there is the expensive Minolta "spy" camera found at the Paine's by the DPD, with the serial number that made it only available in Europe at the time of the assassination. It magically morphed into a Minolta light meter when it got into the hands of the FBI.

Dumb question but, why would someone with a cheap Imperial Reflex camera be in need of a Minolta light meter?

That's a good question Bob - they wouldn't.

All of these cameras look incredibly clunky to me. Surely if PM was holding one of these monsters we would be able to see more of it in this latest gif.

[Thomas Graves]

Robert, I've bounced all over the place on what - if anything he is holding. I have always had some doubt he ever owned the IR. Camera doesn't have to be an IR - if it is a camera at all.

Agreed, Greg. Nowhere has it been shown that Oswald possessed an Imperial reflex.

For somebody like Oswald, allegedly interested in photography, he wouldn't have chosen such a cheap camera, anyway.

Agreed, Ray. One has only to look at one of the other cameras he owned, or at least were found in his possessions at the Paine residence, to grasp the full meaning of your statement.

Pictured above is a Stereo Realist camera, manufactured by the David White Company from 1947 to 1971.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereo_Realist

This camera exposed two images on 35 mm film, from slightly different angles, and allowed a person to view his photos in three dimensions in a stereoscopic viewer. Wouldn't Oswald have much preferred to view himself in the BYP's in 3D?

Of course, then there is the expensive Minolta "spy" camera found at the Paine's by the DPD, with the serial number that made it only available in Europe at the time of the assassination. It magically morphed into a Minolta light meter when it got into the hands of the FBI.

Dumb question but, why would someone with a cheap Imperial Reflex camera be in need of a Minolta light meter?

That's a good question Bob - they wouldn't.

All of these cameras look incredibly clunky to me. Surely if PM was holding one of these monsters we would be able to see more of it in this latest gif.

My "Dog In The Manger" response:

You're absolutely right. It's impossible to "prove" that Oswald owned an Imperial Reflex 620 camera. But by the same token, how can it be "proved" that Oswald owned anything except "the clothes he was wearing" when he was arrested? Isn't everything that was found in Ruth Paine's house / garage, or in Lee's boarding house room (did he even live there?), or which was brought forward by Robert Oswald months after the assassination kinda suspect? Don't we have to rely on a preponderance (or lack of) circumstantial evidence to try to prove (or disprove) just about anything in this case?

Okay. Now that I've gotten that "out of my system," I will proceed to argue both sides to a certain extent.

Robert Oswald said Lee bought the IR in 1957, that he left it with Robert when he went to Russia, and that he retrieved it from Robert when he returned in 1962, Robert said that on December 8, 1963, the Imperial Reflex (sans film) was in a box of Lee's possessions which Robert took home with him on that date (12/08/63).

What bothers me about that is that the Imperial Reflex, in this scenario, went basically unnoticed at Ruth's place for about two weeks.

In a February 19, 1964, FBI report, Irving police detective John A. McCabe is reported to have said that on 11/23/63 he had found "a light gray box camera" inside a box containing Oswald's books and photographs in Ruth Paine's garage. A month later, in a March 23,1964, FBI report, McCabe went into greater detail and advised that he had found "a square, reflex type" camera "in a box of books and photographs" in the garage, but hadn't taken this camera in as evidence because "it appeared to be in such poor condition as to be unable to take photographs," or words to that effect. Which sounds fishy to me. How can a camera, if it is intact and not obviously broken, "look inoperable"? It sounds to me as though McCabe was prevaricating (lying) here, and that it's much more likely that he, just like the four DPD detectives (Adamcik, Stovall, Rose, and Moore) did not see the light grey Imperial Reflex at Paine's house on 11/22 or 11/23.

The funny thing is that Adamcik, Stovall, Rose, and Moore said in March, 1964, that they didn't see any cameras in Mrs. Paine's garage.

Question: Where were Oswald's "Stereo-Realist," his Russian-made "Cuera 2," and the "small German camera" found? In Paine's house, or in her garage? And where was the dresser that McCabe said he put the camera on while he looked through the other contents of the box? Was Ruth storing / using a dresser in her garage, or was the dresser McCabe put the "square, reflex type" camera on for a few minutes inside her house, indicating that McCabe found the box of books and photographs there instead of in the garage?

What it boils down to is that of the five police detectives who searched Ruth Paine's place on 11/22 and 11/23, only one, John A. McCabe of the Irving, Texas, Police Department, said in March, 1964, that he had seen "a light grey box camera" at Ruth Paine's place a day or two after the assassination, and not only did he not report it (because "he didn't think it had any evidentiary value"), but is on record as having steered other detectives away from it by telling them that he had already searched that particular box.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2557.pdf

Things taken in as evidence from Ruth Paine's residence by DPD detectives:

1 ) By detectives Moore, Rose, and Stovall on 11/23/63: http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/16/1647-001.gif

2 ) By detectives Rose, Stovall, and Adamcik on an unspecified date; two pages: http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/16/1649-001.gif http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/16/1649-002.gif

3 ) By detectives Stovall and Rose on 11/22/63: http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/16/1651-001.gif

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

The first one in green is the one with various cameras, including a mysterious "small German camera and black case on chain" (the Minox?)

So what's with the March 23, 1964, FBI report that says that none of the DPD detectives recalled seeing any camera in Paine's garage? Was it because they found them inside her house, instead?

-Tommy sun

PS Robert Prudhomme wrote: "Dumb question but, why would someone with a cheap Imperial Reflex camera be in need of a Minolta light meter?"

That's an excellent question, actually, Robert.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Greg Parker]

Robert Oswald said Lee bought the IR in 1957, that he left it with Robert when he went to Russia, and that he retrieved it from Robert when he returned in 1962, Robert said that on December 8, 1963, the Imperial Reflex (sans film) was in a box of Lee's possessions which Robert took home with him on that date (12/08/63).

This sounds like more BS. Robert is not supposed to have known Lee was going to the SU. IIRC, he told his mother that he was going to New Orleans to work in the import/export field. That being the case, why would Lee not want to take his camera to New Orleans? Wouldn't it seem at least mildly odd that he left it behind?

Edited August 10, 2015 by Greg Parker

[Robert Prudhomme]

Oswald's Russian made Cuera-2 camera.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

Robert Oswald said Lee bought the IR in 1957, that he left it with Robert when he went to Russia, and that he retrieved it from Robert when he returned in 1962, Robert said that on December 8, 1963, the Imperial Reflex (sans film) was in a box of Lee's possessions which Robert took home with him on that date (12/08/63).

This sounds like more BS. Robert is not supposed to have known Lee was going to the SU. IIRC, he told his mother that he was going to New Orleans to work in the import/export field. That being the case, why would Lee not want to take his camera to New Orleans? Wouldn't it seem at least mildly odd that he left it behind?

Greg,

It seems to me that Lee could have left the IR with Robert and not told him he was moving to the Soviet Union. Maybe Robert thought Lee was going to Switzerland, or was going to New Orleans to work in the import-export business. After the assassination, it's natural that Robert would refer that period of time as the time Lee was in "Russia."

I'm trying to find out if Oswald could have bought film for the Russian-made Smena-2 / Cuera-2 in the U.S. Ruth Paine seemed to say in her WC testimony that Oswald claimed he couldn't.

But if he could buy film for it, maybe he took that camera with him to New Orleans (if he took any) instead of the IR, or maybe even that mysterious little "German camera with the black case and chain."

--Tommy

PS By the way, was it ever determined what kind of camera took the infamous photographs of Walker's house?

Edited August 11, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Greg Parker]

Robert Oswald said Lee bought the IR in 1957, that he left it with Robert when he went to Russia, and that he retrieved it from Robert when he returned in 1962, Robert said that on December 8, 1963, the Imperial Reflex (sans film) was in a box of Lee's possessions which Robert took home with him on that date (12/08/63).

This sounds like more BS. Robert is not supposed to have known Lee was going to the SU. IIRC, he told his mother that he was going to New Orleans to work in the import/export field. That being the case, why would Lee not want to take his camera to New Orleans? Wouldn't it seem at least mildly odd that he left it behind?

Greg,

It seems to me that Lee could have left the IR with Robert and not told him he was moving to the Soviet Union. Maybe Robert thought Lee was going to Switzerland, or was going to New Orleans to work in the import-export business. After the assassination, it's natural that Robert would refer that period of time as the time Lee was in "Russia."

I'm trying to find out if Oswald could have bought film for the Russian-made Smena-2 / Cuera-2 in the U.S. Ruth Paine seemed to say in her WC testimony that Oswald claimed he couldn't.

But if he could buy film for it, maybe he took that camera with him to New Orleans (if he took any) instead of the IR, or maybe even that mysterious little "German camera with the black case and chain."

--Tommy

PS By the way, was it ever determined what kind of camera took the infamous photographs of Walker's house?

Tommy, I don't think he had the Soviet camera prior to going to the SU.

I'g going from memory again but I believe only one Walker photo was tied to that camera. Maybe someone can correct that if it's wrong.

[Thomas Graves]

Robert Oswald said Lee bought the IR in 1957, that he left it with Robert when he went to Russia, and that he retrieved it from Robert when he returned in 1962, Robert said that on December 8, 1963, the Imperial Reflex (sans film) was in a box of Lee's possessions which Robert took home with him on that date (12/08/63).

This sounds like more BS. Robert is not supposed to have known Lee was going to the SU. IIRC, he told his mother that he was going to New Orleans to work in the import/export field. That being the case, why would Lee not want to take his camera to New Orleans? Wouldn't it seem at least mildly odd that he left it behind?

Greg,

It seems to me that Lee could have left the IR with Robert and not told him he was moving to the Soviet Union. Maybe Robert thought Lee was going to Switzerland, or was going to New Orleans to work in the import-export business. After the assassination, it's natural that Robert would refer that period of time as the time Lee was in "Russia."

I'm trying to find out if Oswald could have bought film for the Russian-made Smena-2 / Cuera-2 in the U.S. Ruth Paine seemed to say in her WC testimony that Oswald claimed he couldn't.

But if he could buy film for it, maybe he took that camera with him to New Orleans (if he took any) instead of the IR, or maybe even that mysterious little "German camera with the black case and chain."

--Tommy

PS By the way, was it ever determined what kind of camera took the infamous photographs of Walker's house?

Tommy, I don't think he had the Soviet camera prior to going to the SU.

I'g going from memory again but I believe only one Walker photo was tied to that camera. Maybe someone can correct that if it's wrong.

Greg,

Sorry if I confused you, but when I wrote "IR" in my post, I wasn't talking about the Soviet 35mm "Smena-2" aka "Cuera-2" camera which Lee bought in Russia. I was talking about the U.S. made Imperial Reflex 620 (called that because of the "620" film it used) twin lens reflex camera that Robert claimed Lee bought about the time he went into the Marines (1957) and then later on left it with Robert when he departed for "Switzerland," eventually retrieving it from Robert when he returned to the U.S. in 1962.

In my post I was wondering if Lee might have taken the photo of Walker's house with his Russian made Smena-2 35mm camera instead of the alleged Imperial Reflex 620, and along that line of thought I was wondering if Lee could have even bought 35mm film for that Russian camera in the United States when he came back. Despite what Marina and Ruth Paine told the WC, I think it was possible for Lee to buy film for the Smena-2 in the U.S. because I've found a youtube video which shows some guys in Poland loading (incorrectly at first -- they put the film in upside down -- LOL) some Fujicolor film into their old Smena-2 camera.

--Tommy

PS -- "Smena" means "youth" in Russian.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Greg Parker]

Tommy,

this is what I was responding to: But if he could buy film for it (The Russian camera), maybe he took that camera with him to New Orleans (if he took any) instead of the IR, or maybe even that mysterious little "German camera with the black case and chain."

I presumed the trip to NO being referenced was the one preceding his trip to Europe in 1959.

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy,

this is what I was responding to: But if he could buy film for it (The Russian camera), maybe he took that camera with him to New Orleans (if he took any) instead of the IR, or maybe even that mysterious little "German camera with the black case and chain."

I presumed the trip to NO being referenced was the one preceding his trip to Europe in 1959.

Greg,

I C.

I was thinking of when he moved from Dallas to New Orleans on April 24, 1963. He had allegedly shot at Walker a couple of weeks before that.

I'm up in the air as to whether or not he shot at Walker.

What do you think?

--Tommy

PS I don't know if Oswald's "Stereo Realist" camera could have caused the reflection / glow that we see in the Prayer Man footage, but's it's interesting to speculate that Oswald took it to work with him that day to take some very special photographs of a very special occasion and that Frazier sneaked it (or the IR or the Smena-2) back to Ruth Paine's place later that day.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Greg Parker]

I'm up in the air as to whether or not he shot at Walker.

What do you think?

I'm 100% with Bill and Jeff. It was a publicity stunt,

And a very theatrical one at that... brushing debris from his hair when reporters turned up...

[Thomas Graves]

I'm up in the air as to whether or not he shot at Walker.

What do you think?

I'm 100% with Bill and Jeff. It was a publicity stunt,

And a very theatrical one at that... brushing debris from his hair when reporters turned up...

Greg,

What about the 14-year-old neighborhood kid who said he saw two guys get into two different cars (a 1950 Ford and 1958 Chevrolet) right after the shot?

He said the guy who quickly got into the Ford (that was sitting in the church parking lot, pointed towards the exit onto Turtle Creek Boulevard with its motor running and its headlights on) and drove it away was about 19 years old, 5' 10" tall, 130 pounds, and had a big nose.

That sounds like Wesley Buell Frazier to me. He was 19, skinny, and had a big nose.

The kid, Kirk Coleman, had to stand up on a bicycle that was leaning against a fence at the time to get a better view of what was going on. Since Kirk's head was up high, I think it was difficult for him to judge the height of the guys, but he did get the impression that the guy who got into the Ford was real skinny.

I think I've read somewhere that Wesley Buell Frazier was 6'1" , and we all know that he was skinny. I think it's possible that the guy who Coleman thought was 5' 10" and 130 pounds was really 6' 1" and 150 pounds or so.

If it was Frazier, then it's conceivable that Buell had "borrowed" Oswald's Imperial Reflex camera from Mrs. Paine's garage and taken the photo of Walker's back yard with it.

Just thinking out loud here...

If I'm right, and if the FBI or the Dallas Police found out that it was Frazier, then terrific pressure could have been put on Frazier regarding the framing of Oswald for the assassination. Just like lots of pressure might have been put on Oswald for his highly probable killing of Private Martin Schrand while they were stationed in the Philippines.

It's important to bear in mind that after the assassination, when Coleman was shown photos of Oswald, he said that he was neither of the guys he saw in the church parking lot on the night of April 10, 1963.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/coleman.txt

--Tommy

Edited August 21, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Greg Parker]

I'm up in the air as to whether or not he shot at Walker.

What do you think?

I'm 100% with Bill and Jeff. It was a publicity stunt,

And a very theatrical one at that... brushing debris from his hair when reporters turned up...

Greg,

What about the 14-year-old neighborhood kid who said he saw two guys get into two different cars (a 1950 Ford and 1958 Chevrolet) right after the shot?

He said the guy who got into the Ford and drove it away was about 19 years old, 5' 10" tall, 130 pounds, and had a big nose.

That sounds like Wesley Buell Frazier to me. He was 19, skinny, and had a big nose.

The kid, Kirk Coleman, had to stand up on a bicycle that was leaning against a fence at the time to get a better view of what was going on. Since Kirk's head was up so high, I think it was difficult for him to judge the height of the guys, but he did get the impression that the guy who got into the Ford was real skinny. I think I've read somewhere that Wesley Buell Frazier was 6'1" , and we all know that he was skinny. I think it's possible that the guy who Coleman thought was 5' 10" and 130 pounds was really 6' 1" and 150 pounds or so.

If it was Frazier, then it's conceivable that Buell "borrowed" Oswald's Imperial Reflex camera from Mrs. Paine's garage and took the photo of Walker's back yard with it.

Just thinking out loud here...

If I'm right, and if the FBI or the Dallas Police found out that it was Frazier, then terrific pressure could have been put on Frazier regarding the framing of Oswald for the assassination.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/coleman.txt

--Tommy

Frazier was still living in Huntsville and is about 6' tall (yes, he could have traveled to Dallas to take the potshot and went back to Huntsville, but that doesn't sound very realistic to me. Don't forget that Walker had a small army of student followers... and in any case Coleman's evidence was never tested under cross examination.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Greg Parker

[Greg Parker]

Let's pause for a second and smell the roses:

This is the google ranking on a search under "prayer man" "sean murphy"

----------------------

1. assassinationjfk.net

2. Ed Forum

3. Google Groups

4. McRae's house of horrors

5. DeepFoo

6. Hasan Yusuf's blog (YAY!)

7. Old ROKC (YAY!)

8. JFKFacts

9. JFK Essentials

10. New ROKC (YAY!!!)

(results may vary where you are)

-------------------------

So.... the one that doesn't allow discussion on it and conflates it with Cinque's bilgewater, gets top billing?

Never mind. We Shall Overcome!

[Robert Prudhomme]

The frame is from the Malcolm Couch film, and not the Jimmy Darnell film.

The man is not Oswald as Baker has not even reached the entrance of the TSBD at this point in the film.

Finally, this man has been discussed many many times at http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/board,2.0.html and many enhancements have been made there and are still available for viewing.

Still waiting for this guy to produce the "many discussions" and "many enhancements" he claims to have occurred over at his forum. (sounds like BS to me) I checked the link out and it amounts to nothing.

Why not post some of that stuff here, Dunc?