Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Bill Miller]

5 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Well, Bill, it's a shame you only read part of Billy Lovelady's testimony. If you had read the entire thing, you would know that Lovelady testified he and Shelley were still on the steps of the TSBD at the time Baker was allegedly running up those same steps.

Would you like me to show everyone the part of Lovelady's testimony you skipped over, or would you like to share with us?

I cannot help but notice you don't paste the text that you are citing - you should in case you have a different Warren Commission testimony than I have read. Both Lovelady and Shelly said they left the steps and went to the area across the side street in front of the steps near the stoplight to what Billy called an "island" and Shelly called a "Divider".  They are in the crowd somewhere near the light when they saw the white helmet wearing patrolman running towards the TSBD.  When you have the chance, perhaps you will take time to refresh your memory. Below is taken from Lovelady's and Shelly's statements to the Warren Commission ....

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street.

Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mr. SHELLEY - That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

12 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

So you trust the WCR? The goal of which was to remove Oswald from being near the front entrance when the shots took place?

The only things I trust in the WCR are those that aren't necessary for the official story.

I don't trust the Warren Commission because as an Investigator of more than a quarter of a century on this case I was able to see how the Commission did their questioning which was many times all over the place in my view, thus making it hard to follow what the witness's testimony was trying to convey. I do however trust the witnesses in question, especially when several of them reported seeing the same event around the same time. And while I understand that several people can see the same occurrence take place and from each persons recollection can come some independent variances in their collective recollections, I understand how that can be expected. However, I do not believe the witnesses concerning Patrolman Baker conspired to mislead anyone. What I do believe is there are some people who start with the theory that everything is a fabrication, which at times allows their bias to interfere with rationally evaluating the evidence. I think some are so effected in this way that they could walk over a fresh fallen snow and look back seeing what is obviously the footsteps they have just made and somehow automatically think someone must be following them! No better example of is the going on right now when someone basically says they only trust those that aren't necessary for the official story. The witnesses who were there are part of the official story. The same goes for the cameras that recorded the events as they unfolded are also part of the official story. So when several witnesses report an event independent of one another that is also supported by several cameras, then the basics that the witnesses have relayed pertaining to their own observations is for the most part sincere with possibly of the exception how each person perceived it based on their memory. Just last night I viewed a slowed down version of the combined Couch and Darnell films showing Officer Baker's run and I saw that the camera actually picks him up on the grass between the three lane Elm Street and the extension that runs within several feet of the TSBD building. Shelly and Lovelady referred to as the "Island". Up until I then I assumed Baker left his motorcycle and ran straight for the TSBD even though he had mentioned pausing to see down Elm Street in the direction of the knoll. And as I told Prudomme, Baker and Truly's entering the TSBD and immediately starting their search that led to Baker's seeing Lee in the lunchroom was a benefit to Oswald - not to the official version. From a defense lawyer's standpoint - this would be seen as a plus for LOH.  Someone with a sole need to contradict the official version at all cost might miss this altogether.

I hope that my explaining my view has given you pause to think.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

 

14 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

So you trust the WCR? The goal of which was to remove Oswald from being near the front entrance when the shots took place?

The only things I trust in the WCR are those that aren't necessary for the official story.

....However, I do not believe the witnesses concerning Patrolman Baker conspired to mislead anyone. What I do believe is there are some people who start with the theory that everything is a fabrication, which at times allows their bias to interfere with rationally evaluating the evidence.

 

I take it then that you believe Baker was honest in his WC testimony? That he actually had that encounter with Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom, as reported in the WCR?

[Bill Miller]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I take it then that you believe Baker was honest in his WC testimony? That he actually had that encounter with Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom, as reported in the WCR?

Yes because like I have repeatedly said - that meeting would have been helpful to anyone defending Oswald as a suspect. Then there is Truly coming back down to where Lee and Baker was and letting Baker know that Lee was an  employee.

[Sandy Larsen]

40 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

 

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Posted 6 hours ago · Report post

8 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

 

20 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

So you trust the WCR? The goal of which was to remove Oswald from being near the front entrance when the shots took place?

The only things I trust in the WCR are those that aren't necessary for the official story.

....I do not believe the witnesses concerning Patrolman Baker conspired to mislead anyone. What I do believe is there are some people who start with the theory that everything is a fabrication, which at times allows their bias to interfere with rationally evaluating the evidence.

 

I take it then that you believe Baker was honest in his WC testimony? That he actually had that encounter with Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom, as reported in the WCR?

Yes because like I have repeatedly said - that meeting would have been helpful to anyone defending Oswald as a suspect.

Not if the truth was that Oswald was on the first floor near the front door during the shooting.

Are you aware that Officer Baker's WC testimony is significantly different from his first-day affidavit?

Officer Baker said in his WC testimony that he encountered Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom:

Mr. BAKER - As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.
Mr. DULLES - Where was he coming from, do you know?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from me.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?
Mr. BAKER - I ran on over there
Representative BOGGS -You mean where he was?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I could see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do?
Mr. BAKER - I hollered at him at that time and said, "Come here." He turned and walked right straight back to me.
Mr. BELIN - Where were you at the time you hollered?
Mr. BAKER - I was standing in the hallway between this door and the second door, right at the edge of the second door.
....
Mr. BELIN - All right. Were you carrying anything in either of your hands?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. BELIN - What were you carrying?
Mr. BAKER - I had my revolver out.
Mr. BELIN - When did you take your revolver out?
Mr. BAKER - AS I was starting up the stairway.
....
Representative BOGGS -Right. What did you say to him?
Mr. BAKER - I didn't get anything out of him. Mr. Truly had come up to my side here, and I turned to Mr. Truly and I says, "Do you know this man, does he work here?" And he said yes, and I turned immediately and went on out up the stairs.
Mr. BELIN - Then you continued up the stairway?

But for his 11/22/63 affidavit, Baker claimed to have encountered a man -- not matching Oswald's description -- several floors up:

"As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket."

[Bill Miller]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

But for his 11/22/63 affidavit, Baker claimed to have encountered a man -- not matching Oswald's description -- several floors up:

"As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket."

I find your evaluation to be about as weak as a newborn's handshake.     The physical description of Oswald could fit him quite easily. As far as the clothing ... I will leave that up for those who wish to read what Baker said. The read lettering makes the event easy to follow .... hope you find it useful.

Unless Officer Baker had been familiar with the layout of the Depository building - which obviously did not ... I have no problem with him misstating which floor he was on when he encountered Oswald on 11/22/63. He was so unfamiliar with the layout of the building that Truly had to guide him where to go so to get to the top floor. The important thing is he describes the door with a window in it that led to the lunchroom and that dictates where the meeting took place. And if that still leaves one wondering where the encounter took place - there is Truly to clarify the location. And by the way, there was no such door and/or lunchroom on the third or fourth floor.

Mr. BELIN - What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the building?
Mr. BAKER - As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type.
As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door.
 

Mr. BAKER - We finally backed up and got through that little swinging door there and we kind of all ran, not real fast but, you know, a good trot, to the back of the Building, I was following him.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER - And he was trying to get that service elevator down there.
Mr. BELIN - All right. What did you see Mr. Truly do?
Mr. BAKER - He ran over there and pushed the button to get it down.
Mr. BELIN - Did the elevator come down after he pushed the button?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir; it didn't.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did he do?
Mr. BAKER - He hollered for it, said, "Bring that elevator down here."
Mr. BELIN - How many times did he holler, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. BAKER - It seemed like he did it twice.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Then what did he do?
Mr. BAKER - I said let's take the stairs.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Then what did you do?
Mr. BAKER - He said, "Okay" and so he immediately turned around, which the stairs is just to the, would be to the, well, the west of this elevator.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - And we went up them.

Mr. BELIN - When you started up the stairs what was your intention at that--
Mr. BAKER - My intention was to go all the way to the top where I thought the shots had come from, to see if I could find something there, you know, to indicate that.

Mr. BAKER - As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.
Mr. DULLES - Where was he coming from, do you know?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from me.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?
Mr. BAKER - I ran on over there
Representative BOGGS -You mean where he was?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I could. see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom.

Representative BOGGS -Right. What did you say to him?
Mr. BAKER - I didn't get anything out of him. Mr. Truly had come up to my side here, and I turned to Mr. Truly and I says, "Do you know this man, does he work here?" And he said yes, and I turned immediately and went on out up the stairs.

Representative BOGGS -When you saw him, was he out of breath, did he appear to have been running or what?
Mr. BAKER - It didn't appear that to me. He appeared normal you know.

Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker, first of all, handing you what the court reporter has marked as Exhibit 498, I would like you to state if you know whether or not this appears to be the door leading from the second floor hallway into the vestibule going into the lunchroom.
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. BELIN - Is this the door through which you glanced as you came around the stairs coming up from the first floor?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - What did you see that caused you to turn away from going up to the third floor?
Mr. BAKER - As I came out of that stairway running, Mr. Truly had already gone on around, see, and I don't know, as I come around----
Mr. DULLES - Gone on around and up?
Mr. BAKER - He had already started around the bend to come to the next elevation going up, I was coming out this one on the second floor, and I don't know, I was kind of sweeping this area as I come up, I was looking from right to left and as I got to this door here I caught a glimpse of this man, just, you know, a sudden glimpse, that is all it was now, and it looked to me like he was going away from me.

Mr. BAKER - At the upper portion of this stairway leading to the second floor, I was just stepping out on to the second floor when I caught this glimpse of this man through this doorway.

Mr. BELIN - What about when you saw him in the School Book Depository Building, does this look familiar as anything he was wearing, if you know?
Mr. BAKER - I couldn't say whether that was--it seemed to me it was a light-colored brown but I couldn't say it was that or not.
Mr. DULLES - Lighter brown did you say, I am just asking what you said. I couldn't quite hear.
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; all I can remember it was in my recollection of it it was a light brown jacket.
Mr. BELIN - Are you referring to this Exhibit 150 as being similar to the jacket or similar to the shirt that you saw or, if not, similar to either one?
Mr. BAKER - Well, it would be similar in color to it--I assume it was a jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I was looking at his face and I wasn't really paying any attention. After Mr. Truly said he knew him, so I didn't pay any attention to him, so I just turned and went on.
Mr. BELIN - Now, you did see him later at the police station, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Was he wearing anything that looked like Exhibit 150 at the police station?
Mr. BAKER - He did have a brown-type shirt on that was out.
Mr. BELIN - Did it appear to be similar to any clothing you had seen when you saw him at the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. BAKER - I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say.

 

Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 501?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 501 for identification.)

Mr. BELIN. All right. Number 23, the arrow points to the door that has the glass in it.
Now, as you raced around, how far did you start up the stairs towards the third floor there?
Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.
Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.
Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?
Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.
Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?
Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door.

Mr. TRULY. This picture is part of the lunchroom. And I would say the camera must be facing northeast.
Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 502?
Mr. TRULY. This is the lunchroom looking west. Northwest, I would say.
Mr. BELIN. Is this door clear to the left of the picture, the door in which you saw Officer Baker standing when he was talking to Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Thomas Graves]

53 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

[...]

Oh God.  Here we go again.

The truth:  Oswald on the left; Lovelady on the right.

--  Tommy

 

[Sandy Larsen]

45 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

The physical description of Oswald could fit him quite easily.

Yeah, right. Only off by 30 lb for the obviously scrawny Oswald. And can't tell the difference between second floor and fourth.

Yours are typical LN-style excuses.

Anyway, Baker's testimony problems are only the tip of the iceberg. The second floor encounter has been thoroughly debunked.

[Bill Miller]

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Yeah, right. Only off by 30 lb for the obviously scrawny Oswald. And can't tell the difference between second floor and fourth.

Yours are typical LN-style excuses.

Anyway, Baker's testimony problems are only the tip of the iceberg. The second floor encounter has been thoroughly debunked.

 

Sandy,

Before we go any further - it has been no secret to anyone who has followed my history on Lancer and the Ed Forum that I whole-heartedly believe that there was a conspiracy in JFK's assassination and that Oswald was set up to be the patsy. I have spoken in Dallas on two occasions pertaining to evidence I had discovered that pointed to someone else killing the President. So when you start referring to me as a 'lone-nutter' ... you are demonstrating a certain level of ignorance about my position in this matter and that you speak not from fact, but rather from emotion. I was invited to come and look in on the forum and have said from the beginning that I am not out to convert anyone. You asked me a question pertaining to why I feel that Baker was sincere about running into the TSBD after the shots and eventually running into Oswald in the lunchroom. I added there were three films showing Officer Baker's dash to the TSBD and four witnesses who saw him go up the steps and into the building. That is pretty good evidence in support of what Baker had said concerning his actions immediately after he heard the shots. You responded saying, "I take it then that you believe Baker was honest in his WC testimony? That he actually had that encounter with Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom, as reported in the WCR?" More than once I have detailed through Baker's and others statements that what he said was true. You ignore all that and instead want to hone in on Baker's misjudging Oswald's weight and got the floor number wrong. You offer not evidence that Baker took the time to assess Oswald's weight. He made a guess because he was asked to describe the man he had met in the lunchroom during his very brief encounter. To overlook the time element involved and Baker's state of mind as he was frantically trying to work his way to the roof of the Depository ... he actually did better at guessing Lee's weight than most anyone else could have done from memory. And who really gives a hoot if get got the floor number wrong considering the previous reasons I just gave and knowing he was not familiar with the layout of the building. I must say that your trying to make something out of that is just asinine in light of the fact Baker said the event happened in the lunchroom. As far as I know the TSBD had only one lunchroom and with Truly right there to confirm the encounter and location - Baker could have screwed up and thought for what ever reason it was the 5th floor because all a rational competent investigator needed to do to know which floor it was where the encounter took place would be to inquire as to what floor the lunch-room was on in the building. If Baker wanted to mislead anyone, then he would not have mentioned him meeting the man in the lunchroom and this is why I called your position as weak as a newborn's hand-shake.

You come across as having started with a conclusion and are sifting pepper out of scat in an effort to convince yourself Baker was not reliable. Your response is a perfect example of someone over reaching due to their extreme biases. If you would have read carefully ... you would have seen where Patrolman Baker said he saw someone moving through the little window in the door. Next he enters to confront the man and when asked if it was a brown shirt or a coat the man was wearing - Baker couldn't be certain for in those few rushed moments as he was talking to the person he saw going into the lunchroom  - he was concentrating on the man's face as he spoke to Lee. I think we can agree that Truly darn sure knew what Lee Oswald looked like. If it is your modus-operandi to just go around claiming everyone independently lied because what they said doesn't sit well with you, then that is a personal problem and certainly not one I care to try to fix.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

5 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Oh God.  Here we go again.

The truth:  Oswald on the left; Lovelady on the right.

--  Tommy

  I looked for a color image of Oswald with that shirt on to show that it fit the color description Baker had given but didn't find it, so I posted that image for most everyone has seen that shirt in a color photo. Baker while under extreme stress described the man in a way that could be said about Oswald, but Sandy is concerned that Baker was off by 30lbs and didn't get the floor number right that the lunchroom was on.  

[James R Gordon]

Here is a colour image of the shirt

james

[Bill Miller]

Thanks, James.

[James R Gordon]

[Bill Miller]

56 minutes ago, James R Gordon said:

Thanks again, James. I can see why Patrolman Baker after only briefly speaking to Oswald could not recall if Lee was wearing a shirt or a jacket over the polo shirt underneath.

[Ray Mitcham]

4 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

  I looked for a color image of Oswald with that shirt on to show that it fit the color description Baker had given but didn't find it, so I posted that image for most everyone has seen that shirt in a color photo. Baker while under extreme stress described the man in a way that could be said about Oswald, but Sandy is concerned that Baker was off by 30lbs and didn't get the floor number right that the lunchroom was on.  

Bill, do you really think that the shirt James has posted in the photo above matches the shirt worn by the doorway man in the right part of the photo you posted?

 

Really?

Edited December 15, 2016 by Ray Mitcham