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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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On 12/17/2016 at 1:51 AM, Bill Miller said:

 

[...]

1 - shots were heard

2 - Shelly and Lovelady leave the steps after Calgary runs back to the steps and relays what she has just witnessed.

3 - Patrolman Baker pulls his cycle to the curb and dismounts

 

 

Dear Bill,

A few years ago, someone who is held in high esteem on this forum (Robin Unger?, Chris Davidson?) determined that Marion Baker reached the steps about 20 seconds after the final shot, iirc.  Now, if what that member said is true (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), then "your" Shelley and Lovelady should, according to their testimony (which you seem to swallow hook line and sinker), be visible on the steps in Couch / Darnell, waiting for Gloria Calvery to run up to them and tell them that Kennedy had been shot.

Gloria Calvery must have been fairly close to the limousine (because she evidently saw JFK get shot), and close enough to the TSBD to be able to reach it about 20 seconds later.  (Or do you think she started running away right after the "throat shot," aka Altgens 6, giving her another seven seconds or so?)

When we look at all of these things "taken together," we encounter a contradiction of major proportions, IMHO.

Never mind the fact that neither Shelly nor Lovelady are to be seen in Couch / Darnell, you know, waiting for Calvery to run up to them.

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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12 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Dear Bill,

A few years ago, someone who is held in high esteem on this forum (Robin Unger?, Chris Davidson?) determined that Marion Baker reached the steps about 20 seconds after the final shot, iirc.  Now, if what that photographic expert said is true (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), then "your" Shelley and Lovelady should, according to their testimony (which you seem to swallow hook line and sinker), be visible on the steps in Couch / Darnell, waiting for Gloria Calvery to run up to them and tell them that Kennedy had been shot.

(But they aren't there.)

All of which means that Calvery must have been fairly close to the limousine (because she evidently saw JFK get shot), and close enough to the TSBD to be able to reach it about 20 seconds later.

Which is a contradiction of major proportions, IMHO.

--  Tommy :sun

 

I also hold Robin and Chris in high regard as researchers of the assassination (not sure that makes them anymore of a photo expert as I am) and I would be most interested in how they time stamped Bakers run against the time of the shooting as I was quite active back in the days that cross referencing films and photos was going on. And while I don't want to take away from the high esteem they deserve - I will remind you that there are those who hold Fetzer in high esteem and yet Moorman was not in the street when she took her famous Polaroid .... just addressing that "high esteem" is not relevant here.

Now let me point out a few things that I considered that you have not even mentioned. To start with, I do not have to rely on the premise that Calvery 'must have been pretty close to the limousine' when JFK was hit as she is the third woman to the left of the Stemmons Freeway Sign in the Zapruder film. So seeing blood as she put it didn't call for her being close because Bill Newman who was further away than she was saw blood as soon as the shooting started. At that time - Officer Baker was still on Houston Street. 

So let us assume for arguments sake that Lovelady and Shelly were both independently wrong as to where they were located in the Plaza when they saw Baker's run from the divider to the front of the TSBD, but they did say that they looked back to see Truly and Baker going up the steps, and the camera doesn't lie as those men were not on the steps when Baker made it to the other side of the street, so where were they? Perhaps they were where they said they were, so now its all down a timing problem with them meeting Calvery based on what you have said. I felt the same way, but I read that Calvery came running back up to the depository building. So let us consider that Calvery did run from her position on Elm Street to the steps of the TSBD. Using Patrolman Baker as a time-clock - it took him around 2 to 2.5 seconds to cross the street. During that run there is a woman (wearing a light colored top and dark skirt) seen in Darnell's film that is running towards Truly's location who appears to be running at a steeper angle to the steps than Baker and every bit as fast as Baker, if not slightly faster. Just counting the time off in my head has Baker crossing the Elm Street extension in 3 seconds. Calvery ran from a position between the two roadway signs (Stemmons and Thorton) to the steps. Once there she said, 'They shot the President!' - reply: 'Are you certain?' - 'I saw the blood ....!' It took 10 seconds from the time of the kill shot to JFK before the limo went through the underpass. That is about the time needed to run from Calvery's location to the TSBD steps. A few more seconds to have the quick exchange before Shelly and Lovelady trot over to the divider on the other side of the street where they then look back and see Patrolman Baker and Truly going up the steps.In the end - there was plenty of time for Calvery to run to the steps - have a quick exchange that the president had been shot - and Lovelady and Shelly to have reached the island as Baker and truly were going up the steps to the TSBD.

Edited by Bill Miller
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24 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

[Calvery] is the third woman to the left of the Stemmons Freeway Sign in the Zapruder film.

Dear Bill,

That woman (who I agree is probably Gloria Calvery) was captured on film after the assassination, standing on the grass (iirc) and walking up the Elm Street sidewalk with the two gals who were with her by the Stemmon's sign.  So if it was Calvery, she started running only during the final part of her journey to the TSBD.

The problem remains:  If Shelley and Lovelady stayed on the steps until she got there, why aren't they visible in Couch / Darnell some 20 - 25 seconds after the assassination?

--  Tommy :sun

 

 

Edited by Thomas Graves
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8 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Bart, I would like for those two guys to be Shelly and Lovelady, but without the contrast being bumped way up to give the appearance of a plaid shirt on one man is a man-made image - the coat is not plaid. It is quite a bit lower in the back to which the shirt of Loverlady's was not tailored that way. The manipulation of that image from its raw state has given a similar false plaid design to other peoples clothing too.

 

LL1.jpg

LL2.jpg

Lovelady-from-vid-640x4802.jpg

Lovelady-and-shelley-in-couch-okt-2016-BK-ROKC.jpg

Edited by Bill Miller
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16 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Bill,

That woman (who I agree is probably Gloria Calvery) was captured on film after the assassination, standing on the grass (iirc) and walking up the Elm Street sidewalk with the two gals who were with her by the Stemmon's sign.

Source???

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8 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

Bart, I would like for those two guys to be Shelly and Lovelady, but without the contrast being bumped way up to give the appearance of a plaid shirt on one man is a man-made image - the coat is not plaid. It is quite a bit lower in the back to which the shirt of Loverlady's was not tailored that way. The manipulation of that image from its raw state has given a similar false plaid design to other peoples clothing too.

LL1.jpg

LL1.jpg

LL2.jpg

Lovelady-from-vid-640x4802.jpg

Dear Bill,

How the heck could the contrast be "bumped up" in such a way as to create such a regular pattern of right-angled white stripes on the shirt proper, and that white stripe that goes down the entire length of his sleeve?

You should also take into consideration the fact that Lovelady's distinctive bald spot is visible in a few frames upon a close, slow-motion viewing of the film when it is enlarged.

--  Tommy :sun

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9 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

Source???

Dear Bill,

I gotta do all the work for you?

LOL

Bob Prudhomme and I went through all of this some time ago.

That's what you get for being away so long.

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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1 minute ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Bill,

I gotta do all the work for you?

LOL

Bob Prudhome and I went through all of this some time ago.

That's what you get for being away so long.

--  Tommy :sun

Work - I have posted far more source material since discussing this with either one of you than both of you put together.

Now I ask again - what is the source for the image you spoke of. Do you not remember if it was a film or a photo or who took it?

 

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4 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

Work - I have posted far more source material since discussing this with either one of you than both of you put together.

Now I ask again - what is the source for the image you spoke of. Do you not remember if it was a film or a photo or who took it?

 

Dear Bill,

BFD, and Don't jump to conclusions.

How long have you been discussing this with us?  Couple of days?  LOL

Now that you've aggravated me, maybe I'll just let you stew for awhile.

(While I frantically search for those posts on that old thread so that I can please you, William.)

--  Tommy :sun

 

Edited by Thomas Graves
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10 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Bill,

How the heck could the contrast be "bumped up" in such a way as to create such a regular pattern of right-angled white stripes on the shirt proper, and that white stripe that goes down the entire length of his sleeve?

Several things .... the how isn't as important as seeing that effect show up on other peoples clothing giving a similar appearance. How did those plaid designs show up - were they there in the raw image ... of course they were not! And from that distance and on such a poor quality image - no white stripes should even be visible --- especially as large as they appear to be. The same with the dark squares. I am just not impressed with your casual less than thorough examination of these points.

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6 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Bill,

BFD, and Don't jump to conclusions.

How long have you been discussing this with us?  Couple of days?  LOL

Now that you've aggravated me, maybe I'll just let you stew for awhile.

(While I frantically search for those posts on that old thread so that I can please you, William.)

--  Tommy :sun

 

Have you read this thread, yet, William?  Maybe the answers you're demanding from me are hidden in it.

--  Tommy :sun

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6 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Bill,

BFD, and Don't jump to conclusions.

How long have you been discussing this with us?  Couple of days?  LOL

Now that you've aggravated me, maybe I'll just let you stew for awhile.

(While I frantically search for those posts on that old thread so that I can please you, William.)

--  Tommy :sun

 

Even the name of the thread would be good and I could do a search. By the way ... would you like for me to copy and paste the information I have posted since posting back and forth with you compared to what you responded with - I really don't mind backing up what I say. That is the beauty of forum discussions for the data remains in place.

 

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1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Bill,

BFD, and Don't jump to conclusions.

How long have you been discussing this with us?  Couple of days?  LOL

Now that you've aggravated me, maybe I'll just let you stew for awhile.

(While I frantically search for those posts on that old thread or threads so that I can please you, William.)

--  Tommy :sun

 

Have you read this thread, yet, William?  Maybe the answers you're demanding from me are hidden in it.

--  Tommy :sun

Here's a Jack Martin frame, from Duncan's website, which I posted on the  "Did Gloria Calvery Almost Catch Up With Marion Baker?" thread, this forum, way, way back in the day.

whoiswhomartinfilmdca7hjhi.jpg

Edited by Thomas Graves
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1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

 

LL1.jpg

 

The alleged Bill Shelley is wearing what appears to be a jacket, given how full it is. (Compare its girth to the shirt worn by alleged Lovelady.) Notice the geometric pattern of the jacket's fabric.

Are there any photos of Shelley wearing a patterned jacket that day.

 

 

 

 

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