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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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10 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Bart, I would like for those two guys to be Shelly and Lovelady, but without the contrast being bumped way up to give the appearance of a plaid shirt on one man is a man-made image - the coat is not plaid. It is quite a bit lower in the back to which the shirt of Loverlady's was not tailored that way. The manipulation of that image from its raw state has given a similar false plaid design to other peoples clothing too.

 

LL1.jpg

LL2.jpg

Lovelady-from-vid-640x4802.jpg

Lovelady-and-shelley-in-couch-okt-2016-BK-ROKC.jpg

 

Bill if you cannot see this obvious fact that it is Shelley and Lovelady, alongside with all the paper as mentioned in the link, then that is your loss.

The main image i show is a print repro of the Couch film, the .ittle squared versions are various sharpening techniques. Which even show Lovelady's bald patch.

Case closed.

Your deep state of denial is duly noted, but do not expect me get dragged in further.

I am of the opinion that this thread is going backwards and not forwards at all. All this stuff has been debated up to the hilt in there already and in other posts on this forum.

Bill may I suggest you read this entire thread first!

 

Edited by Bart Kamp
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Bart,

With respect this is not "Case Closed.” Bill Miller is a highly respected JFK assassination researcher. Photographic analysis is one of his skills. I agree one of the pillars of the Prayerman argument is whether these two individuals are Lovelady and Shelley. From what I can see all Bill is saying there is not the evidence in that image to conclusively argue to for it to be Lovelady or Shelley.

I am well aware that Parayerman - Bart - is an important issue to you and I understand the work and effort you have put into this issue. I am well aware of the comments that are flying about at the ROKC site about this thread and - particularly - Bill's intrusion into the debate - something from what I can see you have not involved yourself in.

There is a weakness in an argument when you suggest that if Bill cannot appreciate your point of view then it is his loss. 

I - and indeed the EF - have waited a long time for two serious minded researchers to extensively debate this issue - and that is what we now have.

May i ask that you take this opportunity to debate this issue with Bill. I believe you are the most skilled proponent of the Prayerman issue. If you can convince Bill of your position then I do believe it may well be "Case Closed."Bill Miller is only raising the kinds of question any serious researcher would be expected to ask and - to be fair - would surely have a right to expect an answer.

James

 

 

 

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i want to know who thought this woman was Gloria Calvery as it is not her at all. So someone tell me where is Calvery post shooting in any films or photos that prevent her from having ran back to the steps of the TSBD as Shelley and Lovelady stated?

 

 

3-women.jpg

Edited by Bill Miller
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James,

with respect as well.

Anyone can interpret a photo, as we already know, even Brian Doyle can and look at the mess he has created during his short stay.That doesn't make it right.

Furthermore and more importantly is the fact that Bill has not gone through this entire thread (something that was hinted/pointed out at by other members already), nor the many related threads posted this past year.

By the looks of it. Instead he just barged in and posted partial statements which have already been dealt with or have been debunked years ago. That is taking a step back...........there is nothing new to be learned from the last 3 pages inside this thread.

There is no weakness in my argument at all as a matter of fact I present several strong arguments and present better quality scans than anyone else has been trying to show that those two are Shelley and Lovelady, something Gerda did in 2012 initially. 

The only thing people have put up against it is they don't believe it. Not one real counter argument, supported by any real evidence, coming that has not been squashed yet already. Just observations.

Not has anyone produced any photographs of alternative Shelley's and Lovelady's.

Like Prayer Man many opponents have trouble believing the Shelley/Lovelady walk, simply coz it doesn't fit in their picture of the assassination and its aftermath. 

Bill should read my essay, already pointed out a page or so ago.

And the same goes for the article regarding Shelley and Lovelady alongside w the pic.

Then put evidence forward why my 'observations' are wrong.

The ball is in his court, not mine.

Have a great week!

 

 

 

 

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I watched a video of yours saying that this Lovelady/Shelley find was in 2013. Do I need to read an entire thread to point out what was wrong in that premise as I did that in just a couple of pages of testimony.

 

Perhaps Shelley and Lovelady met Calvery on the other side of the street or on their way there - I can accept that and why Shelley and Lovelady were able to look back and see Truly going up the stairs. But I do not believe they independently lied about meeting Calvery.

 

 

 

Edited by Bill Miller
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Bill,

I have just read through the entire thread - a point that Bart suggested.

It is such a jumbled thread - which moves in all sorts of directions - you come away somewhat confused.

Bart suggests that having read the complete thread the member would fully understand the theory and argument for Prayerman.

Well I am not sure anyone is more informed having read the complete thread. From what I can see there is no summary post or starter document as there is in Prayer person.

This thread was started by William Kelly wondering whether the Prayer man  is actually Oswald leaving the TSBD.The term Prayer Man was created by Sean Murphy - whose contributes in the early pages of the thread - because the figure William Kelly thinks may be Oswald has his hands and arms are positioned in a way that makes it looks like the person is at prayer. 

James

 

 

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On 12/17/2016 at 9:18 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Have you read this thread, yet, William?  Maybe the answers you're demanding from me are hidden in it.

--  Tommy :sun

Here's a Jack Martin frame, from Duncan's website, which I posted on the  "Did Gloria Calvery Almost Catch Up With Marion Baker?" thread, this forum, way, way back in the day.

whoiswhomartinfilmdca7hjhi.jpg

 

Gloria Calvery, Karan (sic) Hicks, and Carol Reed  worked together (iirc) and all said they stood together during the shooting.  It would be nice if someone could find photos of Hicks and/or Arnold taken before or after 11/22/63 for comparison purposes.

 

Edited for Bill Miller.

I'm not talking about photos of "Hicks" and / or "Arnold" that were taken on 11/22/63.  I'm talking about verified (i.e. high school, college, newspaper, etc) photos of Hicks or Arnold that were taken on other days.

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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The recreation was shot with a 16mm camera (24fps) by Underwood.

The two gentlemen on the stairs are approx two seconds apart, so someone starting at the landing, walking down the stairs and someone near the middle step will end up approx where you see them after (86 progressive frames/5.6seconds). 

How far West would they end up in 15-20 seconds?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OWlo5Q3FxdDRaU1U/view?usp=sharing

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6 hours ago, James R Gordon said:

snip

The problems with that statement are:-

a)    The two identified as Shelly and Lovelady are east of the TSBD entrance and are walking west towards the entrance.

B)   These two people - whoever they are - are returning.

c)    If they are Shelly and Lovelady, they have been somewhere and are now returning back to the TSBD.

 

snip

 

James.

 

"East of the entrance"? You sure, James?

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I believe so Ray.

Unless I have misunderstood the the image, it appears to me that the entrance to the TSBD is in front of them.

I understood that - if you take the Houston Elm Street crossing then:

a) to go from the TSBT to Main Street is to go South.

to go from the crossing - on up Houston street - is to go North.

Therefore I believe if the two are walking towards the TSBD entrance they are actually walking west.

I believe that is correct. Please correct me if I am wrong.

James.

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9 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Gloria Calvery, Karan (sic) Hicks, and Carolyn Reed  worked together (iirc) and all said they stood together during the shooting.  It would be nice if someone could find photos of Hicks and/or Arnold taken before or after 11/22/63 for comparison purposes.

--  Tommy :sun

I believe 'they' (four women in total so far) said they went out together to see the parade and took a position along Elm Street.

Calvery11.jpg

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18 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Then put evidence forward why my 'observations' are wrong.

The ball is in his court, not mine.

Have a great week

The ball was hit back to your court and you didn't explain how if what you say is Lovelady's plaid shirt, then why is it no longer a uniformed length all the way around his body? All you did was say something irrelevant and not a very on point answer to my question ..... Kamp:  "Bill if you cannot see this obvious fact that it is Shelley and Lovelady, alongside with all the paper as mentioned in the link, then that is your loss."  When did Lovelady get a shirt that is longer in the back so to show his pants in the front all the way to the belt-line .... much like the guy to out right of the steps by what looks like a mailbox. One could Billy slipped on a jacket, but then it wouldn't be plaid like his shirt. So have you a solution?

Lovelady-from-vid-640x4802.jpg

not lovelady.jpg

lovelady shirt length.jpeg

Image5~1b.jpg

Edited by Bill Miller
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LL1.jpg

 

Take a real close look at this image!

Now the blackness supposedly shows that Lovelady's shirt was longer down at the back than in the front. YES?

Really? Take another look!!!

Still don't see it?

Now look inside the red circle, that blackness goes further to the right than Lovelady does it not?

Could it be that this is an object/person in front of Lovelady?

Well why don't we have a look at Gerda's GIF especially the first half a dozen or so frames where Lovelady is the most visible....

The so called shirt in conjunction with the dark object changes shape every damn frame and the black object even stays behind while Lovelady walks on with Shelley.

Indeed James, case closed.

 

Lovelady and Shelley both lied in their WC testimony about them staying behind on the steps and seeing Vicky Adams on the first floor. FACT

Both their first statements paint a very different picture. FACT

Calvery was nowhere near the steps encountered by Shelley, nor Lovelady FACT

 

Game, set and match!

 

 

 

 

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