Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Robin Unger]

Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.

 

Mr. BALL - Now, did the police come into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast.
Mr. BALL - Did you go with them any place?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.
Mr. BALL - Did you go up on the sixth floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Were you there when they found anything up there?
Mr. SHELLEY - I was, I believe I was on the sixth floor when they found the gun but we were searching all parts of that floor.

[Sandy Larsen]

6 minutes ago, Robin Unger said:

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

 

So Shelley said that Calvery was down watching the motorcade and 3-4 minutes later she came running up to the TSBD  steps ?

Yes, that's what Shelley said. And he said (in the same testimony, above) that that's when Truly and Baker went into the building... three to four minutes after the shooting. Which is odd given that Baker officially ran into the building 20 or 30 seconds after the shots. Not 3 or 4 minutes.

 

[Robin Unger]

3 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Yes Sandy another contradiction in the Testimony.

 

And here is Shelley contradicting Bookhouts statement

Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald to go home?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell anybody to go home?
Mr. SHELLEY. No.
Mr. BALL. You didn't tell anybody to leave the building at all?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Curiouser and curiouser.

[Sandy Larsen]

This is the reason I put most my trust in first-day statements.

Unfortunately, first-day statements can leave out a lot of detail. So when a story later appears to change, it could be completely innocent, with the changes being details not contained in the first-day statement.

But with regard to the Shelley/Lovelady/Baker triad of testimony, some of the discrepancies are so mind boggling ridiculous that I'm convinced that there's some prevarication going on.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hi Sandy

As I just pointed out in another thread, everyone seems intent on finding the real Gloria Calvery, after discovering the Calvery ID'ed just east of the Stemmons sign looks nothing like the real Calvery.

What everyone forgets is that, between March 19-20, 1964, Gloria Calvery, Karen Westbrook, Karan Hicks and Carol Reed all gave statements to the FBI in which each of them stated they were standing in a group with the other three. We know Calvery was misidentified but we have no way of knowing if the other three really are Westbrook, Hicks and Reed.

However, the chances of all four being the wrong people are quite slim, and one of the few possibilities remaining are that the FBI statements are fraudulent.

For some bizarre unknown reason, someone (or a group of someones) found it necessary to have Gloria Calvery on the north side of Elm St., just east of the Stemmons Freeway sign.

Who was this other woman, and where was the real Gloria Calvery?

[Sandy Larsen]

33 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Hi Sandy

As I just pointed out in another thread, everyone seems intent on finding the real Gloria Calvery, after discovering the Calvery ID'ed just east of the Stemmons sign looks nothing like the real Calvery.

What everyone forgets is that, between March 19-20, 1964, Gloria Calvery, Karen Westbrook, Karan Hicks and Carol Reed all gave statements to the FBI in which each of them stated they were standing in a group with the other three. We know Calvery was misidentified but we have no way of knowing if the other three really are Westbrook, Hicks and Reed.

However, the chances of all four being the wrong people are quite slim, and one of the few possibilities remaining are that the FBI statements are fraudulent.

For some bizarre unknown reason, someone (or a group of someones) found it necessary to have Gloria Calvery on the north side of Elm St., just east of the Stemmons Freeway sign.

Who was this other woman, and where was the real Gloria Calvery?

Robert,

Thanks for 1) reminding me that Lovelady may actually be in Darnell, bending down as though talking to the woman in front of him on the steps, and 2) for pointing out that the testimony of the three women with Gloria Calvary (which I did recall were nearly identical) might have been designed to create a false reality. (I need to look at that Darnell film again and see if I can still see Lovelady.)

I have a question for you... what makes us think that the four women identified nearest the Stemmons sign are Karan Hicks, Carol Reed, etc.? I mean, those numbers above each person are identifications determined by assassination researchers, I assume, and could be wrong. Should we be looking for a different group of four women? Or can we have confidence in the identification of those women? Three out of four of them, that is.

[Robert Prudhomme]

21 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Robert,

Thanks for 1) reminding me that Lovelady may actually be in Darnell, bending down as though talking to the woman in front of him on the steps, and 2) for pointing out that the testimony of the three women with Gloria Calvary (which I did recall were nearly identical) might have been designed to create a false reality. (I need to look at that Darnell film again and see if I can still see Lovelady.)

I have a question for you... what makes us think that the four women identified nearest the Stemmons sign are Karan Hicks, Carol Reed, etc.? I mean, those numbers above each person are identifications determined by assassination researchers, I assume, and could be wrong. Should we be looking for a different group of four women? Or can we have confidence in the identification of those women? Three out of four of them, that is.

Good question. To be quite honest, although we know what Gloria Calvery looks like, we have no idea if the women ID'ed as Hicks, Westbrook, Reed and Dishong really are these women. he only way we know they were the first group of five women east of the Stemmons sign is that is what the carbon copy FBI statements tell us.

In short, we really don't know much of anything but I'll tell you this much. I'm slowly beginning to appreciate just how thoroughly we've been had, and that the perpetrators of this cover up wove such an intricate web of deceit, we may never fully unravel it. The thing I don't get, though, is why go to such trouble just to falsely place Gloria Calvery 30 feet from the limo at the first shot?

I guess all we can do is try to produce high school photos of Karen Westbrook, Karan Hicks and Carol Reed. Luckily, they don't appear too old and a couple of them would not have been out of high school long.

[Bill Miller]

12 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

While it may be that no one, including Buell Wesley Frazier, recalls seeing LHO on the top step of the TSBD entrance, there is something here that I find very strange. The film clearly shows Frazier standing on the top step looking toward the corner where Prayer Man was standing, yet I am not certain Frazier has ever admitted to even seeing anyone there.

Frazier was asked who did he recall being out on the steps as he waited for the parade to arrive. He said he had been out there since 12:00pm and remained there until the President' passed by. He even mentioned seeing Shelley and Lovelady heading across the Elm Street extension.

Mr. BALL - What time did you knock off for lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER - 12.
Mr. BALL - Did you eat your lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many chances to see the President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did and I stood there until he come by.
Mr. BALL - You went out there after you quit work?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right, for lunch.
Mr. BALL - About 12 o'clock?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - Who did you go out there with?
Mr. FRAZIER - I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all.

Mr. BALL - Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there.
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.
Mr. BALL - Were you near the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there.
Mr. BALL - One step down from the top of the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here.
Mr. BALL - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Did you stand there for 30 minutes or--tell us how long you stayed there?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I stood there until the parade come by.
Mr. BALL - Did you see the President go by?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL - You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the sound?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - But you stood right there, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Stood right where I was.
Mr. BALL - And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And also Billy Lovelady?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.

Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.

Mr. BALL - Before you left, did you look for Oswald to see about taking him home?
Mr. FRAZIER - No; I didn't, sir.
Mr. BALL - Was there some reason why you didn't?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did. Because like I told you, he was going home to get the curtain rods and I asked him at the time, the same time, it would be about that, would he be going home with me Friday afternoon like he had been doing, he said no. So naturally when they let us go I took on off because I thought maybe they had already dismissed him and he went on home.
 

 

At the Shaw trial:

Q: Did you ever see Lee Harvey Oswald during that time that you were on the steps in front of the Texas School Book Depository?
A: No, sir, I did not.
Q: Did you go back into the building after the presidential motorcade went under the triple underpass? Did you go back into the Texas School Book Depository?
A: After the shots were fired?
Q: Right.
Q: Yes. I stayed there at first and talked to several of the people who worked there in the building. Then some of them started going back inside so I went back inside with some of the others.
Q: Prior to you going back inside, did you see where any of the crowd that was viewing the presidential motorcade may have gone at the time the shots were fired?
A: Quite a few people ran down, like I stated, in the direction of the triple underpass.
Q: Did you see any policemen there?
A: At the triple underpass, yes, sir, there were some just like regular policemen. At that time, when I said previously people were running and screaming and hollering, some were running in that direction towards where the President's motorcade was.
Q: After going back into the Texas School Book Depository Building did you have occasion to see Lee Harvey Oswald?
A: No, sir, I did not.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

5 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

Yes Sandy another contradiction in the Testimony.

Shelley had just told the order of events and how he and Lovelady saw Calvery running towards them - that they crossed over to the divider - that when they looked back that they saw Truly and Baker at the top step on their way into the building - and how they remained on the divider for about a minute before walking on towards the RR Yard. One might conclude from the timeline Shelley gave for he and Lovelady returning to the building three minutes later that Shelley simply misspoke about seeing Calvery minutes later following the shooting.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Robert Prudhomme]

21 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Shelley had just told the order of events and how he and Lovelady saw Calvery running towards them - that they crossed over to the divider - that when they looked back that they saw Truly and Baker at the top step on their way into the building - and how they remained on the divider for about a minute before walking on towards the RR Yard. One might conclude from the timeline Shelley gave for he and Lovelady returning to the building three minutes later that Shelley simply misspoke about seeing Calvery minutes later following the shooting.

One might conclude a lot of things, if one merely skims over the evidence, as you have apparently done here.

You do realize that both Shelley and Lovelady testified to the WC that neither of them left the steps of the TSBD until Gloria Calvery had returned to these steps and engaged these men in conversation, don't you?

[Bill Miller]

19 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

One might conclude a lot of things, if one merely skims over the evidence, as you have apparently done here.

You do realize that both Shelley and Lovelady testified to the WC that neither of them left the steps of the TSBD until Gloria Calvery had returned to these steps and engaged these men in conversation, don't you?

 I have cited bother their testimonies and explained how they related to the Darnell film. I certainly didn't skim over anything if you read my responses. That alone should have been a clue that I was aware of what they had said.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Then how do you reconcile that part of their WC testimonies in which they both state they did not leave the TSBD steps until Gloria Calvery returned to the TSBD steps and engaged them in conversation?

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

Shelley had just told the order of events and how he and Lovelady saw Calvery running towards them - that they crossed over to the divider - that when they looked back that they saw Truly and Baker at the top step on their way into the building - and how they remained on the divider for about a minute before walking on towards the RR Yard. One might conclude from the timeline Shelley gave for he and Lovelady returning to the building three minutes later that Shelley simply misspoke about seeing Calvery minutes later following the shooting.

LOL, oh please. Shelley was asked how long it was from the shooting till the time when Baker and Truly went inside. Shelley obviously was thinking that they had to have gotten there after Gloria Calvery did, because he used the timetable of her arrival to judge when Baker and Truly arrived. And you want us to believe that, in that line of thinking, he confused Calvery's timetable with how long it took for him to go back inside from the RR yard? Talk about DVP-style apologetics!

I will grant you this Bill... had Shelley's testimony  been coached, then yes he could have made such a bizarre error. Amateur actors do mess up their lines like that!

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

[Bill Miller]

2 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Then how do you reconcile that part of their WC testimonies in which they both state they did not leave the TSBD steps until Gloria Calvery returned to the TSBD steps and engaged them in conversation?

That was already explained with a detailed breakdown of their statements and how they played out with the Darnell film.