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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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19 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

One might conclude a lot of things, if one merely skims over the evidence, as you have apparently done here.

You do realize that both Shelley and Lovelady testified to the WC that neither of them left the steps of the TSBD until Gloria Calvery had returned to these steps and engaged these men in conversation, don't you?

 I have cited bother their testimonies and explained how they related to the Darnell film. I certainly didn't skim over anything if you read my responses. That alone should have been a clue that I was aware of what they had said.

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Then how do you reconcile that part of their WC testimonies in which they both state they did not leave the TSBD steps until Gloria Calvery returned to the TSBD steps and engaged them in conversation?

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1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

Shelley had just told the order of events and how he and Lovelady saw Calvery running towards them - that they crossed over to the divider - that when they looked back that they saw Truly and Baker at the top step on their way into the building - and how they remained on the divider for about a minute before walking on towards the RR Yard. One might conclude from the timeline Shelley gave for he and Lovelady returning to the building three minutes later that Shelley simply misspoke about seeing Calvery minutes later following the shooting.

LOL, oh please. Shelley was asked how long it was from the shooting till the time when Baker and Truly went inside. Shelley obviously was thinking that they had to have gotten there after Gloria Calvery did, because he used the timetable of her arrival to judge when Baker and Truly arrived. And you want us to believe that, in that line of thinking, he confused Calvery's timetable with how long it took for him to go back inside from the RR yard? Talk about DVP-style apologetics!

I will grant you this Bill... had Shelley's testimony  been coached, then yes he could have made such a bizarre error. Amateur actors do mess up their lines like that!

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

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2 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Then how do you reconcile that part of their WC testimonies in which they both state they did not leave the TSBD steps until Gloria Calvery returned to the TSBD steps and engaged them in conversation?

That was already explained with a detailed breakdown of their statements and how they played out with the Darnell film.

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15 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

James you now also confirmed that you are not up to date with all the material either.

Why do people in here do not ask questions about the material instead of stating their opinion based on the partial evidence they only are aware of.......and with questions I mean the ones that have not been asked/discussed before. The search system on this forum is one of the best around!

The second floor encounter fugezi is all the more telling for placing Oswald away from the 1st floor where Oswald stated he was.

 

Bart,

 

I am making my way through this book. I know the book is called “Prayerman: out of the shadows and into the light.” However it could very easily have been titled “What Sean Murphy said.”

 

I do not know if you are involved in the slagging-off that is currently going on in ROKC and the members there. It says a great deal about the character of those members but more important the extent ROKC and the membership will go to when they notice someone criticising an issue they hold to be important to them. I can understand the abuse that Bill Miller and I have received. But I am appalled that just because Robin Unger commented that he did not believe Prayerman was Oswald a whole page in their current web of abuse directed at EF membership has been devoted to unseemly abuse directed solely at Robin. I say shame on ROKC and shame on those members who participated in this kind of criticism. I do hope you are not a party to this behaviour for although I disagree with you on this issue I have found you to be an honourable person.  

 

And now to respond to the second floor encounter. It has become clear to me that this is a critical issue - and one the supporters of this theory cannot allow to stand. 

 

There is a very telling moment in Chapter 2. Stan quotes Sean Murphy reflecting that if the encounter with Baker took place at the second floor lunchroom then Prayerman is unlikely to be Oswald. Throughout the book it becomes very clear that the second floor lunchroom meeting becomes a crucial part of the narrative. If it can be questioned and undermined then it will support Prayerman being Oswald and - if it cannot be questioned - the second floor meeting will destroy the idea that Prayerman is Oswald.

 

Aware of the damage if this meeting could be established as factual Sean muses that even if Oswald/Prayerman is in his position outside and sees Baker rushing into the building there was still time for him to leave his position rush upstairs to the second floor grab a Coke and be there in time for the meeting. This scenario goes nowhere because it is quickly realised just how ridiculous it is. 

 

However - ridiculous though this idea is - it underlined just how critical the second floor meeting is and how if not dealt with it could explode the idea that Prayerman was Oswald.

 

And this has raised a thought. Throughout the book we are told this person lied, this did not happen, this testimony is false. I am now wondering whether this is all gamesmanship to protect Oswald being Prayerman rather than the fruits of research.

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4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

LOL, oh please. Shelley was asked how long it was from the shooting till the time when Baker and Truly went inside. Shelley obviously was thinking that they had to have gotten there after Gloria Calvery did, because he used the timetable of her arrival to judge when Baker and Truly arrived. And you want us to believe that, in that line of thinking, he confused Calvery's timetable with how long it took for him to go back inside from the RR yard? Talk about DVP-style apologetics!

I will grant you this Bill... had Shelley's testimony  been coached, then yes he could have made such a bizarre error. Amateur actors do mess up their lines like that!

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

So either Shelley got it right when he gave the chronological order of these events or he misspoke later on. He, nor Mr. Ball seemed to have caught it.  Here once again for your convenience is what Shelley said about the order in which the event unfolded immediately following the shooting .....

Mr. BALL - Did you see the motorcade pass?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - What did you hear?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together. (Note: What script was Shelley reading from when he mentioned the pause and the other two shots coming close together ... certainly not the official scripted version as some would call it. Sounds like the same version so many other witnesses heard, including SS Agent Kellerman when he testified the last two shots came very close to one another. When responding to Mr. Ford - Kellerman described the last two shots as being one over the top of the other  Kellerman said they sounded like a "plane breaking the sound barrier, bang, bang?  That is it." )


Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.


Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west.    (Note:  Shelley doesn't place the sound of the shots as coming from inside the building, but instead to the west of it towards the RR Yard. Hardly appears to be following the official script as some claim he did.)
.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

very%20slow%20darnell%20edited_bm1_zpsiz

Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mr. SHELLEY - That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street.
Mr. BALL - It dead ends?
Mr. SHELLEY - There's concrete between the two streets.

DarnellCropedSlow5_zpsxmsu1dvz.gif

Using a measurement of distance those most people are familiar with ... it is 60feet from home plate to the pitchers mound at a baseball field. It is 90feet from home plate to first base. Shelley and Lovelady could have easily seen their co-worker coming  towards them crying and visibly upset to which they left the stairs and started towards her. The Darnell film shows two individuals meeting a running woman at a distance of around 3 car lengths from the stairs leading up to the entrance of the building. I have added a couple of photographs to offer a better snese as to just how close that meeting took place. At the same time - both men would be correct to say they had not yet left the front of the TSBD. But even if they had not been clear or left out that they started towards her - it would not take away from the timing of their meeting with co-worker Gloria Calvery. If it is truly Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady seen in the Darnell film (which seems probable), then the response given later in Shelley's testimony of it being three to four minutes having passed before encountering Gloria is simply a misstatement rather than some smoking gun. Three to four minutes was the total estimate of how long the two men were out in the Plaza before returning to the building. The notion that this was a slip-up from a script hardly by an actor seems rather absurd to me when Shelley had said several things that was in conflict with the official version of Lee being the assassin.

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Bakers location of parked cycle.jpg

Edited by Bill Miller
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51 minutes ago, James R Gordon said:

Aware of the damage if this meeting could be established as factual Sean muses that even if Oswald/Prayerman is in his position outside and sees Baker rushing into the building there was still time for him to leave his position rush upstairs to the second floor grab a Coke and be there in time for the meeting. This scenario goes nowhere because it is quickly realized just how ridiculous it is. 

 

 

However - ridiculous though this idea is - it underlined just how critical the second floor meeting is and how if not dealt with it could explode the idea that Prayerman was Oswald.

 

And this has raised a thought. Throughout the book we are told this person lied, this did not happen, this testimony is false. I am now wondering whether this is all gamesmanship to protect Oswald being Prayerman rather than the fruits of research.

How many times have we seen claims made that needed to have so many witnesses lying to make a theory seem plausible ... I lost count over the years. You do however seem to hit the nail on the head as to why the second floor room encounter by Officer Baker is so troublesome to the concept that Oswald is Prayer-Man. Buell Frazier was asked to recall who he recognized and remembered being with him before, during, and immediately after the shooting. To both the WC and at the Shaw trial ... Frazier could not say that Lee was out front with him. Buell was even asked when he saw Lee that day and if he ever saw him after the shooting took place to which he replied that he had not see Lee the rest of that day. Buell could talk about how good Lee was with children or how the package Lee brought to work wasn't long enough to be the rifle the WC was wanting to establish, but if he is not willing to say that Lee was standing a couple of feet away from him - then Frazier is part of a plot to conspire to frame Oswald. Perhaps Prayer Man was someone else who Buell didn't particularly know. After all, the lady next to him he described as a heavy set woman named Sarah something. I think Buell only mentioned four or five people who was out front of the building with him, thus he obviously didn't know all of the employees as well as some want to believe he did.

Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.

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7 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

One might conclude a lot of things, if one merely skims over the evidence, as you have apparently done here.

You do realize that both Shelley and Lovelady testified to the WC that neither of them left the steps of the TSBD until Gloria Calvery had returned to these steps and engaged these men in conversation, don't you?

The engaging in conversation from what was reported to have been said would have taken less than a few seconds.

So let me ask you a question .... Whether Gloria met Lovelady and Shelley while they still had their feet on the steps or had merely just started walking away from the steps ... tell me what difference would that point make in the grand scheme of things that would make that a deliberate sinister point concerning the event in question when we have it on film. You keep alluding to it as if these two men entered into some plot to deceive someone over the timing of when Gloria came running up to them. What would be the possible motive for that meeting being moved just a few seconds either way? I cannot see without there being something to gain from it that anyone would see the exact moment of meeting Calvery anything other than an innocent timing recollection. Hopefully you can enlighten me and others by explaining yourself.

Mr. LOVELADY - I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.
Mr. BALL - Who was this girl?
Mr. LOVELADY - Gloria Calvary.
Mr. BALL - Gloria Calvary?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where does she work?
Mr. LOVELADY - Southwestern Publishing Co.
Mr. BALL - Where was the direction of the sound?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right there around that concrete little deal on that knoll.
Mr. BALL - That's where it sounded to you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; to my right. I was standing as you are going down the steps, I was standing on the right, sounded like it was in that area.
Mr. BALL - From the underpass area?
Mr. LOVELADY - Between the underpass and the building right on that knoll.
Mr. BALL - I have got a picture here, Commission Exhibit 369. Are you on that picture?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are.
Mr. LOVELADY - Where I thought the shots are?
Mr. BALL - No; you in the picture.
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, here (indicating).
Mr. BALL - Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were you when the picture was taken?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the the step, would be here (indicating).
Mr. BALL - You were standing on which step?
Mr. LOVELADY - It would be your top level.
Mr. BALL - The top step you were standing there?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.
Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.
Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anything there?
Mr. LOVELADY - No, sir; well, just people running.
Mr. BALL - That's all?
Mr. LOVELADY - And hollerin.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to go down there?
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess---
Mr. BALL - They were running from that way or toward that way?
Mr. LOVELADY - Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction.
Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL - How many steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.
Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk.
Mr. BALL - A fast walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked.
Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you go in the ordinary Small door?
Mr. LOVELADY - You know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a little door.
Mr. BALL - That is where you went in, that little door?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north end of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - That would be the west end, wouldn't it?
Mr. BALL - Is it the one right off Houston Street?
Mr. LOVELADY - No; you are thinking about another dock.
Mr. BALL - I am?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes; we have two.
Mr. BALL - Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it from the south side.
Mr. BALL - Now, the south side---
Mr. LOVELADY - Elm Street is that little dead-end street.
Mr. BALL - That's south.
Mr. LOVELADY - I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this direction; that would have to be west.
Mr. BALL - You came into the building from the west side?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Through that, those raised-up doors.
Mr. BALL - Through the raised-up doors?
Mr. LOVELADY - Through that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it.
Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie?
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.
Mr. BALL - What is her full name?
Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know.
Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams?
Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so.
Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw?
Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear.
Mr. BALL - Where was the girl?
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what.
Mr. BALL - Did you see any other people on the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys had come in.
Mr. BALL - And you stayed on the first floor then?
Mr. LOVELADY - I would say 30 minutes. And one of the policemen asked me would I take them up on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - Did you take them up there?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; I sure did.
Mr. BALL - Mr. Lovelady, your testimony will be written up and it can be submitted to you for your signature if you wish and you can make any changes, or you can waive signature and we will make this your final---
Mr. LOVELADY - I want this to be the final one.
Mr. BALL - All right; you waive signature?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Thanks very much.

Edited by Bill Miller
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On 31/12/2016 at 7:44 AM, Bill Miller said:

That was already explained with a detailed breakdown of their statements and how they played out with the Darnell film.

I'm sorry but, I must have missed that memo. Would you mind terribly explaining how you reconciled their first day statements with their WC testimonies again?

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Bill Miller said:

" Using a measurement of distance those most people are familiar with ... it is 60feet from home plate to the pitchers mound at a baseball field. It is 90feet from home plate to first base. Shelley and Lovelady could have easily seen their co-worker coming  towards them crying and visibly upset to which they left the stairs and started towards her. The Darnell film shows two individuals meeting a running woman at a distance of around 3 car lengths from the stairs leading up to the entrance of the building. I have added a couple of photographs to offer a better snese as to just how close that meeting took place. At the same time - both men would be correct to say they had not yet left the front of the TSBD. But even if they had not been clear or left out that they started towards her - it would not take away from the timing of their meeting with co-worker Gloria Calvery. If it is truly Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady seen in the Darnell film (which seems probable), then the response given later in Shelley's testimony of it being three to four minutes having passed before encountering Gloria is simply a misstatement rather than some smoking gun. Three to four minutes was the total estimate of how long the two men were out in the Plaza before returning to the building. The notion that this was a slip-up from a script hardly by an actor seems rather absurd to me when Shelley had said several things that was in conflict with the official version of Lee being the assassin"

I'm sorry, Bill, but your theory does not work unless you completely ignore Bill Lovelady's testimony.

" Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say. 
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time. 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could. 
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps. 
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. "

Lovelady is quite clear about not leaving the steps until he and Shelley conversed with Gloria Calvery.

I do not see how you can interpret being on the steps with being in front of the TSBD.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme
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22 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

The engaging in conversation from what was reported to have been said would have taken less than a few seconds.

So let me ask you a question .... Whether Gloria met Lovelady and Shelley while they still had their feet on the steps or had merely just started walking away from the steps ... tell me what difference would that point make in the grand scheme of things that would make that a deliberate sinister point concerning the event in question when we have it on film. You keep alluding to it as if these two men entered into some plot to deceive someone over the timing of when Gloria came running up to them. What would be the possible motive for that meeting being moved just a few seconds either way? I cannot see without there being something to gain from it that anyone would see the exact moment of meeting Calvery anything other than an innocent timing recollection. Hopefully you can enlighten me and others by explaining yourself.

Mr. LOVELADY - I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.
Mr. BALL - Who was this girl?
Mr. LOVELADY - Gloria Calvary.
Mr. BALL - Gloria Calvary?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where does she work?
Mr. LOVELADY - Southwestern Publishing Co.
Mr. BALL - Where was the direction of the sound?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right there around that concrete little deal on that knoll.
Mr. BALL - That's where it sounded to you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; to my right. I was standing as you are going down the steps, I was standing on the right, sounded like it was in that area.
Mr. BALL - From the underpass area?
Mr. LOVELADY - Between the underpass and the building right on that knoll.
Mr. BALL - I have got a picture here, Commission Exhibit 369. Are you on that picture?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are.
Mr. LOVELADY - Where I thought the shots are?
Mr. BALL - No; you in the picture.
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, here (indicating).
Mr. BALL - Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were you when the picture was taken?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the the step, would be here (indicating).
Mr. BALL - You were standing on which step?
Mr. LOVELADY - It would be your top level.
Mr. BALL - The top step you were standing there?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.
Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.
Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anything there?
Mr. LOVELADY - No, sir; well, just people running.
Mr. BALL - That's all?
Mr. LOVELADY - And hollerin.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to go down there?
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess---
Mr. BALL - They were running from that way or toward that way?
Mr. LOVELADY - Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction.
Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL - How many steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.
Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk.
Mr. BALL - A fast walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked.
Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you go in the ordinary Small door?
Mr. LOVELADY - You know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a little door.
Mr. BALL - That is where you went in, that little door?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north end of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - That would be the west end, wouldn't it?
Mr. BALL - Is it the one right off Houston Street?
Mr. LOVELADY - No; you are thinking about another dock.
Mr. BALL - I am?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes; we have two.
Mr. BALL - Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it from the south side.
Mr. BALL - Now, the south side---
Mr. LOVELADY - Elm Street is that little dead-end street.
Mr. BALL - That's south.
Mr. LOVELADY - I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this direction; that would have to be west.
Mr. BALL - You came into the building from the west side?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Through that, those raised-up doors.
Mr. BALL - Through the raised-up doors?
Mr. LOVELADY - Through that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it.
Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie?
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.
Mr. BALL - What is her full name?
Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know.
Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams?
Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so.
Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw?
Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear.
Mr. BALL - Where was the girl?
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what.
Mr. BALL - Did you see any other people on the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys had come in.
Mr. BALL - And you stayed on the first floor then?
Mr. LOVELADY - I would say 30 minutes. And one of the policemen asked me would I take them up on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - Did you take them up there?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; I sure did.
Mr. BALL - Mr. Lovelady, your testimony will be written up and it can be submitted to you for your signature if you wish and you can make any changes, or you can waive signature and we will make this your final---
Mr. LOVELADY - I want this to be the final one.
Mr. BALL - All right; you waive signature?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Thanks very much.

It's quite simple, Bill.

Baker was on Houston St. when he heard the first shot. By the time he revved his motorcycle to make his dash to the TSBD, he had already heard the 2nd and 3rd shots. It is estimated, if you believe his testimony, it took no longer than twenty seconds for him to begin the dash until he was going through the front door of the TSBD. 

This means that, if you believe Lovelady's and Shelley's testimonies, there is only twenty seconds for Gloria Calvery, short as she was, to make her way from where she witnessed JFK being shot, down near the Stemmons sign, to the front steps of the TSBD. Still within this twenty seconds, she must tell S&L about the assassination PLUS answer a couple of their questions. STILL within this twenty seconds, S&L must then leave the steps of the TSBD and be 15-25 steps down the Elm St. extension when they looked back and saw Truly and Baker entering the TSBD together.

There simply just is not enough time for all of this to occur before Baker entered the building.

Capiche?

Edited by Robert Prudhomme
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37 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

I'm sorry but, I must have missed that memo. Would you mind terribly explaining how you reconciled their first day statements with their WC testimonies again?

just go back a few pages and you will find it in probably more than one post

 

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To be quite honest with you, Bill, I have been reading all of your posts and have not forgotten anything you have said. I just don't agree with anything you have said.

As I stated on another thread, your theories will only work if we completely ignore a good portion of the testimonies of Lovelady and Shelley. I simply cannot accept these methods as being sound.

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1 hour ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

It's quite simple, Bill.

Baker was on Houston St. when he heard the first shot. By the time he revved his motorcycle to make his dash to the TSBD, he had already heard the 2nd and 3rd shots. It is estimated, if you believe his testimony, it took no longer than twenty seconds for him to begin the dash until he was going through the front door of the TSBD. 

Your version seems to be edited down a bit from the real one. As I said in an earlier post - Baker was on Houson when the shots were fired. Using the Zapruder and Wiegman films as a clock - the President's car had just entered the underpass about 9.6 seconds after the last shot. At the time Wiegman starts filming and leaps from the car - Patrolman Baker's cycle has not make it to the point where it was parked yet. As Wiegman is running down Elm Street towards the knoll, Baker has reached the place where he parked his bike. He dismounts and places the kickstand down so the bike would remain standing. Baker said he paused and looked down the street to see people laying on the ground and people running everywhere. He also said he heard the radio call about getting men up in the RR yard before starting his run to the building.

At this time I would like for you to quote where Baker said it took him 20 seconds to get to the entrance of the TSBD?  Here is the link to his testimony for your convenience:   http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/baker_m1.htm

This means that, if you believe Lovelady's and Shelley's testimonies, there is only twenty seconds for Gloria Calvery, short as she was, to make her way from where she witnessed JFK being shot, down near the Stemmons sign, to the front steps of the TSBD. Still within this twenty seconds, she must tell S&L about the assassination PLUS answer a couple of their questions. STILL within this twenty seconds, S&L must then leave the steps of the TSBD and be 15-25 steps down the Elm St. extension when they looked back and saw Truly and Baker entering the TSBD together.

Calvery, depending on which woman she was, she only looked near the Steemon's road sign from the angle Zapruder had filmed her.  Below is the Bronson photo and woman "K" is just visible beyond the pillar on the right side of the photo. The dark complected woman someone mislabeled as Calvery is much further from the Stemmons Freeway sign than hos she appeared in Zapruder's film.

 

 

 

Bronson photo.jpeg

Edited by Bill Miller
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13 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

To be quite honest with you, Bill, I have been reading all of your posts and have not forgotten anything you have said. I just don't agree with anything you have said.

So this was just a 'filler' response?  

Prudhomme:  "I'm sorry but, I must have missed that memo. Would you mind terribly explaining how you reconciled their first day statements with their WC testimonies again?"

Edited by Bill Miller
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