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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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22 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Cite and quote the source for your position as that is not what I have read - and I have been quite thorough by quoting the witnesses in my response .... you should be able to extend the same courtesy.

Cite and quote it yourself, Bill. You don't give orders to people around here, do you follow me?

We have been over Shelley's and Lovelady's testimonies so many times, we have almost worn out the witness web page. I don't know what testimonies you have been reading but the ones we have all read here clearly have S&L stating they did NOT leave the steps until Gloria Calvery arrived at the steps.

What is your agenda here, Bill? The rest of us have been discussing you amongst ourselves, and the general conclusion is you seem to be here purposely wasting everyone's time. Is that what you are up to?

HAVE YOU REALLY NOT SEEN THE DOZEN OR SO TIMES I HAVE POSTED THE TESTIMONY OF S&L STATING THEY DID NOT LEAVE THE STEPS UNTIL GLORIA CALVERY ARRIVED AT THE STEPS?

Just for you, one LAST time, here is the relevant excerpt from the WC testimony of Bill Lovelady. Please read it and commit it to memory, as I will not post it again for you:

" Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say. 
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time. 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could. 
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps. 
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes."

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm

I've even posted the link for you, Bill, so you can go look things up for yourself.

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5 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Well said Bob, enough is enough.

Lovelady and Shelley lied to the WC.

 

smileyvault-cute-big-smiley-animated-013   Yes - well said. Prudhomme has Shelley and Lovelady still on the steps 3 minutes after the shots and not having left them at a time you have Shelley and Lovelady off of them and being out in the PLaza for 4 minutes before seeing Truly and Lovelady entering the building. Very Nice!

 

None of you have given a rational explanation why Shelley or Lovelady  would say they saw Baker and Truly about to enter the TSBD when they got to the Island/Divider and looked back - all before ever going to the RR Yard if they were to then say they didn't see Gloria, Baker, or Truly until 4 minutes after the shooting. To accept your position in light of your being so big on the Darnell film and what it is alleged to show - are we to believe that Baker sprinted across the street and waited four minutes before going up the stairs to enter the TSBD - is that your story?  I must mention this because while you mention the Newman's correctly other times - you mistakenly called them the Wiegman's once. Would that then be grounds to rule out a slip-up on your part and go straight to claiming you had lied .... that would seem rather baseless would it not. 

Where my criticism lies with you is that Shelley and Lovelady laid out the chain of events as they unfolded. That chain of events according to you is caught on film as Patrolman Baker crosses the Elm Street extension with the running woman seen to the left and hurrying behind, and Truly turning towards the stairs to follow Baker as the running woman passes by. Shelley and Lovelady don't say they saw Truly and Baker climbing the stairs when they reached the Island and looked back, but rather they were seen at the top of the stairs and about to enter the building. Those statements are supported by the timing of the events as caught on Darnell's film.

What you have chosen to do is then take the latter erred timing estimate of 4 minutes for seeing Baker and Truly entering the building and make that fit your theory for a late arrival for Patrolman Baker entering the building. That means that Darnell filmed Baker racing across the street within 20 seconds or so following the shooting to then wait at the stairs for almost 4 minutes before climbing them and entering the building. That rates right up there with the Greer shooting JFK claim. It's preposterous and deserves all the criticism it will surely get.

Edited by Bill Miller
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4 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm

 

I've even posted the link for you, Bill, so you can go look things up for yourself.

You have left out testimony given that addresses when Calvery met up with BL and BS in time for them to look back and see Truly and Baker at the top of the stairs and about to enter the building.

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49 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

 

smileyvault-cute-big-smiley-animated-013   Yes - well said. Prudhomme has Shelley and Lovelady still on the steps 3 minutes after the shots and not having left them at a time you have Shelley and Lovelady off of them and being out in the PLaza for 4 minutes before seeing Truly and Lovelady entering the building. Very Nice!

 

None of you have given a rational explanation why Shelley or Lovelady  would say they saw Baker and Truly about to enter the TSBD when they got to the Island/Divider and looked back - all before ever going to the RR Yard if they were to then say they didn't see Gloria, Baker, or Truly until 4 minutes after the shooting. To accept your position in light of your being so big on the Darnell film and what it is alleged to show - are we to believe that Baker sprinted across the street and waited four minutes before going up the stairs to enter the TSBD - is that your story?  I must mention this because while you mention the Newman's correctly other times - you mistakenly called them the Wiegman's once. Would that then be grounds to rule out a slip-up on your part and go straight to claiming you had lied .... that would seem rather baseless would it not. 

Where my criticism lies with you is that Shelley and Lovelady laid out the chain of events as they unfolded. That chain of events according to you is caught on film as Patrolman Baker crosses the Elm Street extension with the running woman seen to the left and hurrying behind, and Truly turning towards the stairs to follow Baker as the running woman passes by. Shelley and Lovelady don't say they saw Truly and Baker climbing the stairs when they reached the Island and looked back, but rather they were seen at the top of the stairs and about to enter the building. Those statements are supported by the timing of the events as caught on Darnell's film.

What you have chosen to do is then take the latter erred timing estimate of 4 minutes for seeing Baker and Truly entering the building and make that fit your theory for a late arrival for Patrolman Baker entering the building. That means that Darnell filmed Baker racing across the street within 20 seconds or so following the shooting to then wait at the stairs for almost 4 minutes before climbing them and entering the building. That rates right up there with the Greer shooting JFK claim. It's preposterous and deserves all the criticism it will surely get.

Had you read my essay you would understand that I do not subscribe to any of this twaddle above.

 

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14 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Had you read my essay you would understand that I do not subscribe to any of this twaddle above.

Are you speaking about the "twaddle' that Shelley and Lovelady remained on the steps for three minutes as Prudhomme as concluded  .... also derived from the same testimony that you have read that caused you to believe that is Shelley and Lovelady walking away from the steps as Baker runs across the street as seen in the Darnell film or the 'twaddle' that doesn't fit that everything a witness said that doesn't fit your theory was a lie? 

Edited by Bill Miller
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50 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

Does all of this really matter? The guy standing in the back of the entrance could be LHO. We'll never know until the TV station releases a clean copy of the film showing him standing there.

No argument there even though that is a different issue than Lovelady and Shelley being off the steps in less than 20 seconds Vs they remaining on the steps for 3 minutes before leaving them.

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I think it ought to be clear that Shelley and Lovelady left the steps backed up by the photo/film evidence of Wiegman/Couch and Darnell, and combined with their primary statements for the DPD/FBI. 

How many more times...............

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2 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

I think it ought to be clear that Shelley and Lovelady left the steps backed up by the photo/film evidence of Wiegman/Couch and Darnell, and combined with their primary statements for the DPD/FBI. 

How many more times...............

And through their WC testimony. In that same testimony it was said they went from the stairs to the Island near the concrete -  Shelley:  "Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute."

 ..... the concrete between Elm street and the Elm Street extension, Mr Ball asked - Shelley:  " That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street  

So there should be no confusion to where on the Island did Shelley say the two men went ...    Shelly:  " Yes, where they split. "   Shelley:  " We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly "

Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.

Important:

The time out in the Plaza was given by Shelley in two time periods. The first time period was while on the Island/divider for 2 minutes on the high end.  Those time estimates are in bold underlined blue text.     The second time period was while out in the RR Yard at the end of the Elm Street Extension and was given at 1.5 minutes on the high end. That makes a total high end time of 3.5 minutes.  No estimate was sought for the walk from their position at the concrete to the RR Yard ... or the walk back to the TSBD west side entrances. If a guess could be made for the distance traveled from point A to point B, then one could reasonably add another 30 seconds of travel time to the mix which brings the total time to 4 minutes on the high end.

Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider.
Mr. BALL - Between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out?
MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay very long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, it wasn't very long.
Mr. BALL - How long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Maybe a minute or two.
Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh,

Mr. BALL - Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first railroad track?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - That's about what distance?
Mr. SHELLEY - Approximately 100 yards.
Mr. BALL - Did you trot, run or walk?
Mr. SHELLEY - We were walking but it was a pretty fast walk.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay there any length of time?
Mr. SHELLEY - Not very long.
Mr. BALL - How long would you say?
Mr. SHELLEY - I wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back to the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
 

The only time period to see Calvery - Truly - and Patrolman Baker that has the Darnell film in support of it is when Shelley and Lovelady arrived on the Island in time to look back and see Truly and Baker on the move and about to enter the TSBD. I do not see how the latter WC testimony can be viewed as anything other than a misspeak in light of this. This will be a point that will not go away and the critics will not miss.

Edited by Bill Miller
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On 31/12/2016 at 1:54 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Please ignore the wording above regarding Sandy Larsen. Something is wrong with the "Quote" feature, and I cannot get rid of the above logo.

That being said, Bill, there are a few things wrong with your theory.

First, was there really enough time for Gloria Calvery to run back up from where she witnessed the assassination, for Calvery to have a fairly involved conversation with Shelley and Lovelady and for Shelley and Lovelady to be 25 steps down the Elm St. extension BEFORE Truly and Baker had even climbed the steps?

" Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in."

Please note that Shelley said "on" the island and not "near" or "close to" the island.

So, according to Shelley, they did not actually see Baker and Truly enter the building, they were only "at the first step like they were fixin' to go in." Would you call that conclusive proof, Bill, or would you sat that was merely an assumption?

Speaking of assumptions, let's talk about the Darnell film. Are you actually able to see Baker run up the steps and enter the TSBD, immediately after crossing the Elm St. extension, or do we once again have to assume that is what Baker did? I would hate to have to fight this in a court of law based on all of the assumptions you would be asking the jury to make.

One final assumption we have to make for your theory to work is to assume two fellows seen walking down the Elm St. extension are Shelley and Lovelady, and that if (and that is a big if) Darnell had stayed on them a few more seconds, we would see them turning around to witness Baker and Truly "at the first step fixin' to go in". But, there is another problem here. These two fellows are not on the concrete island. Rather, they are in the middle of the Elm St. extension between cars parked on either side. PLUS, they don't appear to have conversed with Gloria Calvery yet, if you are one of the True Believers who maintain they spoke to her on the concrete island. Now, if they had already spoken to her, would we not be able to see her somewhere in the vicinity of the concrete island? Or did she give the news to S&L, and then run into the TSBD well ahead of Baker, just so she wouldn't be captured on the Darnell film?

For a short dumpy little woman, that Gloria SURE could run. Lickety-split!

Edited by Robert Prudhomme
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On 31/12/2016 at 1:54 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Ignore the Sandy Larsen message above. It keeps popping up and I can't delete it.

Sorry, Robin, Couch gif. I can't seem to keep the two straight.

"Shelley" definitely seems to be taller than "Lovelady".

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21 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

Last location seen in Couch, of the two walking men

 

2-men.jpg

Not exactly on the concrete island. I wonder if they returned to the concrete island before turning back to see Baker and Truly "fixin' to get ready" to go up the stairs?

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