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Oswald Leaving TSBD?

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3 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Not exactly on the concrete island. I wonder if they returned to the concrete island before turning back to see Baker and Truly "fixin' to get ready" to go up the stairs?

More like where the 00s are.

The concrete island is just jibber-jabber. Ball asked if they went straight across the street and Shelley said more to the right. And again they passed Calvery, if she is running woman, and were very  close to the curb on the south side of the extension. A few steps more and they are on the island in time to look back and see truly and baker at the top of the steps and about ready to enter the TSBD.


Edited by Bill Miller
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On 31/12/2016 at 1:54 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Ignore the undeletable message above this.

You have completely lost the ability to make a rational comment, Bill. This discussion is going nowhere, if you refuse to see reality for what it is. Therefore, I am going to place you on my Ignore List. Have a nice life!

Edited by Robert Prudhomme
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16 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

And through their WC testimony. In that same testimony it was said they went from the stairs to the Island near the concrete -  Shelley:  "Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute."

 ..... the concrete between Elm street and the Elm Street extension, Mr Ball asked - Shelley:  " That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street  

So there should be no confusion to where on the Island did Shelley say the two men went ...    Shelly:  " Yes, where they split. "   Shelley:  " We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly "

Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.


The time out in the Plaza was given by Shelley in two time periods. The first time period was while on the Island/divider for 2 minutes on the high end.  Those time estimates are in bold underlined blue text.     The second time period was while out in the RR Yard at the end of the Elm Street Extension and was given at 1.5 minutes on the high end. That makes a total high end time of 3.5 minutes.  No estimate was sought for the walk from their position at the concrete to the RR Yard ... or the walk back to the TSBD west side entrances. If a guess could be made for the distance traveled from point A to point B, then one could reasonably add another 30 seconds of travel time to the mix which brings the total time to 4 minutes on the high end.

Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider.
Mr. BALL - Between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out?
MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay very long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, it wasn't very long.
Mr. BALL - How long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Maybe a minute or two.
Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh,

Mr. BALL - Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first railroad track?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - That's about what distance?
Mr. SHELLEY - Approximately 100 yards.
Mr. BALL - Did you trot, run or walk?
Mr. SHELLEY - We were walking but it was a pretty fast walk.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay there any length of time?
Mr. SHELLEY - Not very long.
Mr. BALL - How long would you say?
Mr. SHELLEY - I wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back to the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

The only time period to see Calvery - Truly - and Patrolman Baker that has the Darnell film in support of it is when Shelley and Lovelady arrived on the Island in time to look back and see Truly and Baker on the move and about to enter the TSBD. I do not see how the latter WC testimony can be viewed as anything other than a misspeak in light of this. This will be a point that will not go away and the critics will not miss.







None of this matters really.

Why not?


1/Calvery has not been IDed, period!

2/The Wiegman, Couch and Darnel films show that Shelley and Lovelady started to make a move to descend the steps before the last shot was fired (before Wiegman went out and felt the force of the 3rd shot in his face!).

3/Again the primary DPD/FBI statements by Lovelady and Shelley confirm their movements of the steps.

4/FBI report March 18th, even though he states that they accompanied the police officers to the railroad yard, he still mentions Lovelady and him left IMMEDIATELY!


Now then what is it all about?

It's about ticking off the individuals who were on the steps and left subsequently while Prayer Man is still standing there. It kills off any possibility that either Shelley or Lovelady is PM.

Plus it shows how Shelley and Lovelady lied to the WC about their presence on the steps from a timing perspective.

Lied about seeing Baker go in, unless Baler went in much later than officially admitted, which we know is bollox since Truly yapped with Brennan!

Their sighting of Victoria Adams on the 1st floor from a timing p.o.v. was a lie to discredit her as a witness,.

What difference does Calvery make? Besides that Shelley was best man at her wedding.

Calvery makes as much difference as JVB.


I am with Bob here, Bill Miller you add nothing to the convo as hard as you have tried these past two weeks.



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On 1/2/2017 at 9:23 AM, Robert Prudhomme said:
On 12/31/2016 at 6:54 AM, Sandy Larsen said:



you seem to have had a similar problem to what I experienced, you try to quote something new and the previous thing you quoted keeps popping up, I solved it by logging out, closing my browser completely and coming back in, if that doesn't work then try cleaning your cookies too, I think the forum software copies what you want to quote to your clipboard or at least it seems that way and it's not refreshing(layman's speak). All the best regardless.

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Statements are generalizations written out by someone other than the witness. They seldom cover any one detail with more than a sentence or two. Why do you think there is a more detailed questioning if witnesses at trials.       :)

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Given the large number of TSBD workers who testified for the WC, who were standing at the TSBD doorway when the shots rang out, and for several minutes afterward...

Given the agreement of DPD officer Marrion Baker and TSBD supervisor Roy Truly that they met LHO on the 2nd floor only 90 seconds after the JFK shots...

The likelihood that LHO left the TSBD going by the front door and unnoticed by any TSBD employee is virtually impossible.

The greater likelihood, then, is that LHO left the TSBD by one of the rear exits.

The only testimony we have that LHO left the TSBD by the front door is the testimony of Captain Will Fritz, who was not an eye-witness, but did keep LHO for interrogation for DAYS AT A TIME, and kept no records of the interrogations. 

The greater likelihood, then, is that Captain Will Fritz was not a reliable witness -- but rather, was part of a Dallas plot to frame LHO for the JFK assassination.  (Every word that Will Fritz put into the mouth of LHO was obviously coordinated over several months' time with James Hosty, Forrest Sorrels and James Humes). 

If so, then seeking of photographs of LHO leaving the TSBD by the front door is unlikely to bear fruit. 

Why would LHO leave by the back door?  Why would LHO leave the TSBD at all? 

The notion that LHO left by the front door is fueled, IMHO, by the theory that LHO was not only innocent of the JFK shooting, but also clueless about it.

In my theory, LHO was indeed innocent of the JFK shooting, but he wasn't clueless -- LHO knew the principals involved -- including Gerry Patrick Hemming and Loran Hall.  LHO did not shoot JFK -- but LHO knew something was up, so he went home to get his pistol.  Yet LHO would have seen a lot of familiar people at the front door, so he more likely took one of the rear exits.

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

The only testimony we have that LHO left the TSBD by the front door is the testimony of Captain Will Fritz, who was not an eye-witness, but did keep LHO for interrogation for DAYS AT A TIME, and kept no records of the interrogations.

--Paul Trejo

Good post, Paul.  It's interesting that some people here will say that the statements taken by the FBI and DPD must be suspect and yet like you pointed out - Fritz didn't bother to audio record his interview of Oswald and yet those same people embrace those notes without finding them suspect as well.

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On 8/22/2013 at 7:29 PM, Sean Murphy said:

Excellent work, Richard, it's good to get these listed systematically like this.

Just a couple of small additions to copperfasten your points:

-Billy Lovelady is even more definitively ruled out as Prayer Man for the simple reason that the two show up right beside each other in the Wiegman footage:


-Buell Wesley Frazier testified that he saw the President as he went past the building but that his view of the limo was blocked by spectators lining Elm Street as the limo proceeded in the direction of the underpass. Whereas Prayer Man's view would have been blocked not by human bodies but by bricks and mortar (of the TSBD entrance's west wall).

So far no-one has suggested that Prayer Man is anyone other than a TSBD employee.

We've had a parade of candidates offered up for consideration (Lovelady, Shelley, Frazier, Williams, Molina, Lewis, Jones) but all have been eliminated with ease.

Now unless someone is going to come forward and tell us that Prayer Man is actually a rather butch woman, we're still stuck with the mother of all questions:

Is Prayer Man none other than Lee Oswald, coke bottle in hand?


Could it really be that simple? You bet your life it could.

hi guys, this is my very first post on the forum. 

My apologies in advance for quoting an old post in this thread, but I have been wondering for quite some time about what Prayer Man is doing with his hands in this GIF.

To me it looks like he is in a hurry to button his shirt. Is it just me?

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