Robin Unger Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 9 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said: Sometimes when I look at that image I am convinced that Prayer Man is putting something in his shirt pocket. Sometimes I am convinced that he is using his right hand to open a bottle he is holding in his left hand. Sometimes I'm convinced that that 'left hand' isn't a hand at all and it is actually the radiator behind the door. Sometimes I am comvinced that it is not the radiator but is actually a 'reflective door strip'. Sometimes I am convinced that Prayer Man is actually standing with his arms crossed. Sometimes I think he is standing straight up. Sometimes I think he is leaning on the wall... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair Briggs Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Cheers Robin. From that I am now convinced that the 'white blob'/'left hand' can not be the reflective strips as 1) they would be highly unlikely to make such a 'reflection' and 2) they go much further across the door... Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Logan Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 2 hours ago, Henrik Fendt said: yes, I think you are absolutely right.. In 1963 people did not carry or put on or take off a bottle cap. Twist off caps were not on these bottles. You get a bottle of coke/dr. pepper/7up whatever and remove the cap in the bottle cap remover which was in the vending machine. The cap would drop into a well inside the door of the machine to be removed and emptied by the guy who filled the machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) On 1/3/2017 at 7:07 PM, Bill Miller said: Good post, Paul. It's interesting that some people here will say that the statements taken by the FBI and DPD must be suspect and yet like you pointed out - Fritz didn't bother to audio record his interview of Oswald and yet those same people embrace those notes without finding them suspect as well. Bill, Thanks for the recognition. It is ironic that so many CTers still uncritically accept the words of Captain Will Fritz as forced into the mouth of LHO. We do best to doubt everything that Will Fritz claimed about LHO, and that includes the folks who were with Will Fritz when LHO was being interrogated for so many days, without formal notes. It is bizarre that the FBI and Secret Service would attend these same interrogations of LHO and then later rely upon the notes that Captain Will Fritz wrote WEEKS LATER. They didn't keep their own notes?? This was patently criminal. Yet CTers continue to accept that "Oswald said he walked out the front door." It's true irony. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited January 5, 2017 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said: Bill, Thanks for the recognition. It is ironic that so many CTers still uncritically accept the words of Captain Will Fritz as forced into the mouth of LHO. We do best to doubt everything that Will Fritz claimed about LHO, and that includes the folks who were with Will Fritz when LHO was being interrogated for so many days, without formal notes. It is bizarre that the FBI and Secret Service would attend these same interrogations of LHO and then later rely upon the notes that Captain Will Fritz wrote WEEKS LATER. They didn't keep their own notes?? This was patently criminal. Yet CTers continue to accept that "Oswald said he walked out the front door." It's true irony. Regards, --Paul Trejo Paul, I stopped giving interviews unless they were being recorded because a writer would then put together an article by piecing together a story based on those bits and pieces. Depending on how the in-betweens were given - various versions of what I had said could be given. Once I told of myself and a fellow investigator as having gone 60 yards down a hill looking for evidence. From our elevation to the bottom was close to 1/2 of a mile or so and yet the writer wrote that we traveled down a 60 yard hill. If that was taken from the writers notes, then the write wasn't jotting down exactly what I had said. One might think this is a rare thing that happens, but it is not. It has happened so much that I and several people who are sought for interviews will not given them with them being recorded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 3 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said: Cheers Robin. From that I am now convinced that the 'white blob'/'left hand' can not be the reflective strips as 1) they would be highly unlikely to make such a 'reflection' and 2) they go much further across the door... Regards Alistair, I saved this post you made as I thought it was a really good job of analyzing Fritz's quizzes. I have pasted it here for those who may have forgotten it or missed it. Again - nice job! Bill 5 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said: After he returned to the TSBD he (Shelley) never went anywhere near the front door, so how could Oswald have been with him after the shooting. Therefore, he must have been with Shelley before the shooting. Alternatively Oswald was making up the 'standing with Bill Shelley' part. Slight aside, here is an extract from Bugliosi's book 4 days in November... when Fritz was talking with Oswald from 3:40pm onwards... "What part of the building were you in at the time the president was shot?" Fritz quizzes. "I was having lunch about that time on the first floor," Oswald says dryly. "We broke for lunch about noon and I came down and ate." "Where were you when the officer stopped you?" Fritz asks, referring to the story that Roy Truly, the building manager, had told him earlier. "I was on the second floor drinking a Coke when an officer came in," Oswald replies. "There's a soda machine in the lunchroom there. I went up to get a Coke." "Then what did you do?" Fritz prompts. "I left," Oswald says, like it's nothing...... *a short time later..... "Why did you leave the Depository after the shooting?" Fritz asks, returning suddenly to the present. The questions are coming from all angles now, but Oswald handles the changeups with ease. "I went out front and was standing with Bill Shelley," Oswalds tells him, "and after hearing what happened, with all the confusion, I figured there wouldn't be any more work done the rest of the day, so I went home. The company's not that particular about our hours. We don't even punch a clock.! It may be important to look at what Oswald didn't say here as much as it is to look at what he did say. At the time of the shots, Oswald didn't say he was having lunch with anyone, but did say he was having it on the first floor. Oswald did not say he was standing on the front steps, he also did not say he was standing with Shelley at this time. He did say he then went up to the second floor to buy a Coke, thus he couldn't have had the Coke before that point, he does say that after that he left the building. Oswald says before he left he was standing out front with Bill Shelley and implies that it was from talking to Shelley that he made the decision to leave... What is also of interest in this is that Oswald says he was having lunch at the time of the shots, and he also says they broke for lunch about noon. From what other's have said about the breaking for lunch it is reasonable to say that 'about noon' means some time approaching 12 and not after it. This means that Oswald is claiming that he was on the first floor eating lunch from that point until the shots a period of 30+ minutes, during which time he didn't go up and get the Coke, but only after the shots did he do that (per his words). ... Ray, I'm not seeing a contradiction in what Shelley is saying in the two bits you posted there (in your most recent post), 5 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said: Shelley “Lee Harvey Oswald worked under my supervision. He was at work when I arrived for work on November 22, 1963 at about 8 a.m. I specifically recall seeing Oswald on the first floor at about 11.50 a.m. This day. He was going about his regular duties filling orders at that time. I did not see Oswald again after this until I saw him at the Dallas police Dept.” The 'I did not see Oswald again after this' is in reference to the seeing him on the first floor at about 11:50am. The line about 'regular duties', 'at that time', whilst worded somewhat awkwardly is in reference to what Oswald had been doing from getting to work in the morning until the time he must have gone down for lunch. So when Shelley then said what you quote... 5 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said: Mr. BALL - Did you see him from time to time during that day? Mr. SHELLEY - I am sure I did. I do remember seeing him when I came down to. eat lunch about 10 to 12. There is no contradiction there. Both times he is saying that the last time he saw Oswald was on the first floor at 11:50am. All things considered then, the question that springs to mind is why would Oswald claim to have been out front with Shelley? If it did happen then surely there would be some verification for it from other people. If it didn't happen why would Oswald take the risk in saying it? An interesting angle to look in to at some point in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Mitcham Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bill Miller said: Alistair, I saved this post you made as I thought it was a really good job of analyzing Fritz's quizzes. I have pasted it here for those who may have forgotten it or missed it. Again - nice job! Bill Alternatively Oswald was making up the 'standing with Bill Shelley' part. Slight aside, here is an extract from Bugliosi's book 4 days in November... when Fritz was talking with Oswald from 3:40pm onwards... "What part of the building were you in at the time the president was shot?" Fritz quizzes. "I was having lunch about that time on the first floor," Oswald says dryly. "We broke for lunch about noon and I came down and ate." "Where were you when the officer stopped you?" Fritz asks, referring to the story that Roy Truly, the building manager, had told him earlier. "I was on the second floor drinking a Coke when an officer came in," Oswald replies. "There's a soda machine in the lunchroom there. I went up to get a Coke." "Then what did you do?" Fritz prompts. "I left," Oswald says, like it's nothing...... *a short time later..... "Why did you leave the Depository after the shooting?" Fritz asks, returning suddenly to the present. The questions are coming from all angles now, but Oswald handles the changeups with ease. "I went out front and was standing with Bill Shelley," Oswalds tells him, "and after hearing what happened, with all the confusion, I figured there wouldn't be any more work done the rest of the day, so I went home. The company's not that particular about our hours. We don't even punch a clock.! It may be important to look at what Oswald didn't say here as much as it is to look at what he did say. At the time of the shots, Oswald didn't say he was having lunch with anyone, but did say he was having it on the first floor. Oswald did not say he was standing on the front steps, he also did not say he was standing with Shelley at this time. He did say he then went up to the second floor to buy a Coke, thus he couldn't have had the Coke before that point, he does say that after that he left the building. Oswald says before he left he was standing out front with Bill Shelley and implies that it was from talking to Shelley that he made the decision to leave... What is also of interest in this is that Oswald says he was having lunch at the time of the shots, and he also says they broke for lunch about noon. From what other's have said about the breaking for lunch it is reasonable to say that 'about noon' means some time approaching 12 and not after it. This means that Oswald is claiming that he was on the first floor eating lunch from that point until the shots a period of 30+ minutes, during which time he didn't go up and get the Coke, but only after the shots did he do that (per his words). ... Ray, I'm not seeing a contradiction in what Shelley is saying in the two bits you posted there (in your most recent post), The 'I did not see Oswald again after this' is in reference to the seeing him on the first floor at about 11:50am. The line about 'regular duties', 'at that time', whilst worded somewhat awkwardly is in reference to what Oswald had been doing from getting to work in the morning until the time he must have gone down for lunch. So when Shelley then said what you quote... There is no contradiction there. Both times he is saying that the last time he saw Oswald was on the first floor at 11:50am. All things considered then, the question that springs to mind is why would Oswald claim to have been out front with Shelley? If it did happen then surely there would be some verification for it from other people. If it didn't happen why would Oswald take the risk in saying it? An interesting angle to look in to at some point in the future. Oswald said he was having lunch in the lunch room when the two black guys entered the back of the TSBD. He then went up to the second floor for a coke before going down to join Shelley et al at the entrance. I agree it would be a silly thing to say if it didn't happen. As for Oswald not being noticed. remember he was a relatively new employee, kept himself to himself, and was a pretty innocuous guy. Re the last part if you read my reply to Sandy you will see I have already admitted I was incorrect in saying there was a contradiction. Edited January 5, 2017 by Ray Mitcham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Ray Mitcham said: Oswald said he was having lunch in the lunch room when the two black guys entered the back of the TSBD. He then went up to the second floor for a coke before going down to join Shelley et al at the entrance. I agree it would be a silly thing to say if it didn't happen... Ray, There is no proof that Oswald said any such thing -- only the claim by Captain Will Fritz and his guys that Oswald said it. I don't believe Fritz for a second. Regards, --Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 On 1/3/2017 at 7:10 AM, Bart Kamp said: 4/FBI report March 18th, even though he states that they accompanied the police officers to the railroad yard, he still mentions Lovelady and him left IMMEDIATELY! Bart, I thought I saw that FBI report recently posted, but now I can't find it. Can you post it or tell me where to find it? I'd like to address it in my "Shelley and Lovelady not lying" thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) Edited January 5, 2017 by Bart Kamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) Thanks to Bart Kamp for posting Bill Shelley's WC affidavit. I find no reason to doubt any word of this affidavit, and every reason to accept its basic honesty. Again -- this points to the theory that LHO left the TSBD by a rear exit. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited January 5, 2017 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Ray Mitcham said: Oswald said he was having lunch in the lunch room when the two black guys entered the back of the TSBD. He then went up to the second floor for a coke before going down to join Shelley et al at the entrance. I agree it would be a silly thing to say if it didn't happen. As for Oswald not being noticed. remember he was a relatively new employee, kept himself to himself, and was a pretty innocuous guy. Re the last part if you read my reply to Sandy you will see I have already admitted I was incorrect in saying there was a contradiction. Hi Ray! My post was not to address the debate, but to merely state that I was impressed with the way Alistair sorted through and assessed the evidence in such a thorough manner. In other words I thought his technique was quite professional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Shelley states he saw Oswald last at ten to 12 on the first floor near the telephone after he had gone down for lunch, yet Lovelady said he came down in the elevator at ten to 12 to wash up and have lunch, and hears Oswald allegedly calling down the lift shaft while they are going down for them to send the elevator back up. Homicide detective C. W. Brown is taking an affidavit from Book Depository foreman Bill Shelley in a small interrogation room inside the Homicide and Robbery office when the arresting officers bring Oswald in. Mr. Shelley looks up at the man in custody and remarks to Detective Brown, "He works for us. I'm his supervisor. " Shelley also said to Jack Edwin Dougherty that he saw Oswald with a large package, according to his WC testimony (page 9). But this is more than likely a falsehood. Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I didn’t, but some of the fellows said they did. Mr. BALL. Who said that? Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairly good-sized package. Mr. BALL. When did Shelley tell you that? Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, it was-the day after it happened. Which cannot be possible as Oswald was already there according to his own WC testimony (page 2). Nor does he make any mention of it during that very same testimony! Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, did you see him come to work that morning? Mr. SHELLEY. No, he was at work when I got there already tilling orders.). Shelley, Lovelady,Sanders, Reid and Truly handed Lee Oswald on a silver platter and they all lied their arses off. What else is new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said: Thanks for posting that Bart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 (edited) On 1/2/2017 at 11:53 PM, Robert Prudhomme said: Wait a minute Bill. Now we have to ignore the first day statement where Shelley ran across to the island and talked to Gloria Calvery there. Will you please make up your mind which piece of evidence you plan to go with, as they all seem to contradict each other? You can't simply cherry pick whatever evidence happens to work with your current theory. I plan on going with the witness testimony as a whole and attempting to not get hung up on a single word or phrase. Too many times I have heard someone explain an occurrence at various times to different people and never using the same word(s) twice. Because of the use of a different word or phrase .... the statement could have been interpreted as different from a past one, when I knew that was not what the witness was trying to do. It's a shame that we do not have the location that Lovelady pointed out for Mr. Ball as even the tree is slightly to the right depending on how one chooses to look at it. Billy Lovelady said that he took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute. Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there? Edited January 6, 2017 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts