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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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1 hour ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Oswald said he was having lunch in the lunch room when the two black guys entered the back of the TSBD. He then went up to the second floor for a coke before going down to join Shelley et al at the entrance. I agree it would be a silly thing to say if it didn't happen. As for Oswald not being noticed. remember he was a relatively new employee, kept himself to himself, and was a pretty innocuous guy.

 

Re the last part if you read my reply to Sandy you will see I have already admitted I was incorrect in saying there was a contradiction.

Hi Ray!

My post was not to address the debate, but to merely state that I was impressed with the way Alistair sorted through and assessed the evidence in such a thorough manner. In other words I thought his technique was quite professional.

 

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  • Shelley states he saw Oswald last at ten to 12 on the first floor near the telephone after he had gone down for lunch, yet Lovelady said he came down in the elevator at ten to 12 to wash up and have lunch, and hears  Oswald allegedly calling down the lift shaft while they are going down for them to send the elevator back up.
  • Homicide detective C. W. Brown is taking an affidavit from Book Depository foreman Bill Shelley in a small interrogation room inside the Homicide and Robbery office when the arresting officers bring Oswald in. Mr. Shelley looks up at the man in custody and remarks to Detective Brown, "He works for us. I'm his supervisor. "
  • Shelley also said to Jack Edwin Dougherty that he saw Oswald with a large package, according to his WC testimony (page 9). But this is more than likely a falsehood.

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I didn’t, but some of the fellows said they did.
Mr. BALL. Who said that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairly good-sized package.
Mr. BALL. When did Shelley tell you that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, it was-the day after it happened.

Which cannot be possible as Oswald was already there according to his own WC testimony (page 2). Nor does he make any mention of it during that very same testimony!

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, did you see him come to work that morning?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, he was at work when I got there already tilling orders.).

 

Shelley, Lovelady,Sanders, Reid and Truly handed Lee Oswald on a silver platter and they all lied their arses off.

What else is new.

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On 1/2/2017 at 11:53 PM, Robert Prudhomme said:

 

Wait a minute Bill. Now we have to ignore the first day statement where Shelley ran across to the island and talked to Gloria Calvery there.

Will you please make up your mind which piece of evidence you plan to go with, as they all seem to contradict each other?

You can't simply cherry pick whatever evidence happens to work with your current theory.

I plan on going with the witness testimony as a whole and attempting to not get hung up on a single word or phrase. Too many times I have heard someone explain an occurrence at various times to different people and never using the same word(s) twice.  Because of the use of a different word or phrase .... the statement could have been interpreted as different from a past one, when I knew that was not what the witness was trying to do.

It's a shame that we do not have the location that Lovelady pointed out for Mr. Ball as even the tree is slightly to the right depending on how one chooses to look at it.

Billy Lovelady said that he took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?

Edited by Bill Miller
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Mr. HOLMES. There was a commotion outside, which he [Oswald] later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.

But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.

He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."

Then another man [Pierce Allman see below] rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."

And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."

[If you take the words in bold out of Holmes report then it ties up perfectly with the story from Pierce Allman.]

 

Pierce Allman was a rookie reporter when he accidentally ran into Lee Harvey Oswald in the moments immediately after President Kennedy was shot.

'He didn't appear stressed in any way,' Allman said of Oswald. 

Allman was in the crowd when shots were fired at the President's motorcade, and he saw people leaning out the fifth-floor windows of the Texas School Book Depository and looking up to the level above. 

'There were three guys in the fifth floor window. And they were literally hanging out of the window and looking up and pointing up,' Allman told CBS.

'I thought, "I need to get to a phone and call." So I ran down the sidewalk and up the steps and into the doorway of the depository building.'

As soon as he got into the building, he realized that he needed help finding a phone in the building so he could file the report. 

'There was a guy standing in the doorway, and I said, "Where's the phone?" And he jerked his thumb and said, "In there!" And I said, "Thank you,"’ he told CBS.

The moment was so fleeting that even though Oswald's picture was splashed across the papers and television news programs in the coming days, Allman did not realize that Oswald was the man he spoke to until three weeks later. 

 

 

If Allman met Oswald immediately after the shooting, Oswald couldn't have got down there in time if he had been on the sixth floor.

 

 

 

Plus these comments about the first floor

 

Ken Biffle, Dallas morning News reporter overheard Truly telling Fritz that he saw Oswald near the storage room on the first floor. (There is a small storage room alongside the main entrance of the TSBD)

 

Occhus Campbell, Vice President of the TSBD, was quoted by the New York Herald Tribune, 23/11/63, as stating “Shortly after the shooting, we raced back into the bulding. We saw Oswald in a small storage room on the ground floor.

 

Looks like Oswald was near the front doors after all.

 

 



 

Edited by Ray Mitcham
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1 hour ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Mr. HOLMES. There was a commotion outside, which he [Oswald] later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.

But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.

He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."

Then another man [Pierce Allman see below] rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."

And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."

[If you take the words in bold out of Holmes report then it ties up perfectly with the story from Pierce Allman.]

 

Pierce Allman was a rookie reporter when he accidentally ran into Lee Harvey Oswald in the moments immediately after President Kennedy was shot.

'He didn't appear stressed in any way,' Allman said of Oswald. 

Allman was in the crowd when shots were fired at the President's motorcade, and he saw people leaning out the fifth-floor windows of the Texas School Book Depository and looking up to the level above. 

'There were three guys in the fifth floor window. And they were literally hanging out of the window and looking up and pointing up,' Allman told CBS.

'I thought, "I need to get to a phone and call." So I ran down the sidewalk and up the steps and into the doorway of the depository building.'

As soon as he got into the building, he realized that he needed help finding a phone in the building so he could file the report. 

'There was a guy standing in the doorway, and I said, "Where's the phone?" And he jerked his thumb and said, "In there!" And I said, "Thank you,"’ he told CBS.

The moment was so fleeting that even though Oswald's picture was splashed across the papers and television news programs in the coming days, Allman did not realize that Oswald was the man he spoke to until three weeks later. 

 

 

If Allman met Oswald immediately after the shooting, Oswald couldn't have got down there in time if he had been on the sixth floor.
 

Ray,

I have no major issue with Pierce Allman's story.  It is within the realm of possibility.  The only fishy thing is that he didn't realize that LHO was the man he saw at the TSBD door until THREE WEEKS LATER.  That could smack of a case of mistaken identity.

Too many people claim to have seen LHO in this or that context -- most of them just mistaken about it (e.g. the guy at the gun store, installing a scope for an "Oswald" who didn't even look like LHO).

Or -- it could be an actual memory.  It really and truly could have been LHO in that scene, LHO was not one of the JFK shooters. 

LHO was, however, stupid enough to hand over his rifle to the JFK shooters that morning -- so LHO did know that something was wrong immediately after the shots were fired -- and that he had to go home to get his pistol, and that he might have to shoot somebody with it.

LHO was not the JFK shooter.  Yet, LHO knew who the shooters were, and LHO kept their identities secret from the Press -- likely hoping they would come to "give him legal assistance."  The demand for New York attorney John Abt, BTW, was very likely a secret code message to the conspirators.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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So many assumptions in your post, Paul.

PaulTrejo

"I have no major issue with Pierce Allman's story.  It is within the realm of possibility.  The only fishy thing is that he didn't realize that LHO was the man he saw at the TSBD door until THREE WEEKS LATER.  That could smack of a case of mistaken identity."

Another coincidence that Allman's story dovetails with Oswald's alleged comments?

 

"Too many people claim to have seen LHO in this or that context -- most of them just mistaken about it (e.g. the guy at the gun store, installing a scope for an "Oswald" who didn't even look like LHO)."

The guy in the gun shop said he fixed a scope for a guy called Oswald and had the ticket to prove it.

"LHO was, however, stupid enough to hand over his rifle to the JFK shooters that morning -- so LHO did know that something was wrong immediately after the shots were fired -- and that he had to go home to get his pistol, and that he might have to shoot somebody with it."

"LHO was not the JFK shooter.  Yet, LHO knew who the shooters were, and LHO kept their identities secret from the Press -- likely hoping they would come to "give him legal assistance."  The demand for New York attorney John Abt, BTW, was very likely a secret code message to the conspirators."

Wow, you are a mind reader,  as well?

 

Edited by Ray Mitcham
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14 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

 The guy in the gun shop said he fixed a scope for a guy called Oswald and had the ticket to prove it. 

As if there was only one person in Dallas named Oswald, who had a rifle.

Besides, Klein's shipped a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle with a scope already on it.  

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Ray Mitcham your latest contribution to the PM saga is outstanding. We (!) applaud the notion of  Oswald coming out of the TSBD after the shooting as he's getting ready to leave and seeing Shelley doesn't sequence with the actual timing of events. Because Shelley had already left!

It also means that he spoke with Shelley after he returned, as per Bookhout's statement, meaning Oswald stayed at the TSBD much longer than the WC 3 minutes version. Which then begs the question whether those initial police reports of Oswald last seen at 12:45 at the TSBD 

"Out With Bill Shelley In Front" has been given a much more concise meaning now. Another notch for Oswald to be Prayer Man

Well done Ray, excellent deduction, gotta borrow this dude ;) w credit of course.

 

Edited by Bart Kamp
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Far more likely that Bookhout was lying than that LHO said anything at all about seeing Shelley, and Shelley not remembering that.

 

Edited by Paul Trejo
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No Paul, not far more likely just because you think it is,

'Next thing you are about to convey in this thread is no doubt that general Walker was standing on those steps......'

Edited by Bart Kamp
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LHO was, however, stupid enough to hand over his rifle to the JFK shooters that morning -- so LHO did know that something was wrong immediately after the shots were fired -- and that he had to go home to get his pistol, and that he might have to shoot somebody with it.

That sounds about right, Paul. Oswald, in the vestibule, with the pistol (a la Clue). And oh, don't forget, everyone, I have all of the answers on this and the Ed Walker angle.  Learn about it by buying my book :)

So, so funny.

Ray Mitchum - great post about the Allman quote.  See, there is still a good reason to come to this forum to learn something new.

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2 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

No Paul, not far more likely just because you think it is,

'Next thing you are about to convey in this thread is no doubt that general Walker was standing on those steps......'

Bart,

Actually, General Walker was in Louisiana at the moment of the JFK shooting.  

The key to remember is that the alleged last words of LHO are given only by DPD Captain Will Fritz, Dallas FBI agent James Bookhout, Dallas FBI agent James Hosty, Dallas Secret Service Agent Forrest Sorrels, and Dallas Postmaster Harry Holmes.

It amazing that CTers continue to doubt everything about the WC except the testimony of these five witnesses. 

Amazing,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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17 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Mr. HOLMES. There was a commotion outside, which he [Oswald] later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.

But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.

He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."

Then another man [Pierce Allman see below] rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."

And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."

[If you take the words in bold out of Holmes report then it ties up perfectly with the story from Pierce Allman.]

 

Pierce Allman was a rookie reporter when he accidentally ran into Lee Harvey Oswald in the moments immediately after President Kennedy was shot.

'He didn't appear stressed in any way,' Allman said of Oswald. 

Allman was in the crowd when shots were fired at the President's motorcade, and he saw people leaning out the fifth-floor windows of the Texas School Book Depository and looking up to the level above. 

'There were three guys in the fifth floor window. And they were literally hanging out of the window and looking up and pointing up,' Allman told CBS.

'I thought, "I need to get to a phone and call." So I ran down the sidewalk and up the steps and into the doorway of the depository building.'

As soon as he got into the building, he realized that he needed help finding a phone in the building so he could file the report. 

'There was a guy standing in the doorway, and I said, "Where's the phone?" And he jerked his thumb and said, "In there!" And I said, "Thank you,"’ he told CBS.

The moment was so fleeting that even though Oswald's picture was splashed across the papers and television news programs in the coming days, Allman did not realize that Oswald was the man he spoke to until three weeks later. 

 

 

If Allman met Oswald immediately after the shooting, Oswald couldn't have got down there in time if he had been on the sixth floor.

 

 

 

Plus these comments about the first floor

 

Ken Biffle, Dallas morning News reporter overheard Truly telling Fritz that he saw Oswald near the storage room on the first floor. (There is a small storage room alongside the main entrance of the TSBD)

 

Occhus Campbell, Vice President of the TSBD, was quoted by the New York Herald Tribune, 23/11/63, as stating “Shortly after the shooting, we raced back into the bulding. We saw Oswald in a small storage room on the ground floor.

 

Looks like Oswald was near the front doors after all.
 


Unfortunately, these all could have occurred after the alleged 2nd floor Baker/Oswald encounter. And also after Oswald allegedly shot the president. (Two things I don't believe happened, but others do..)

Because even though the Pierce Allman report states, "in the moments immediately after President Kennedy was shot," it also states, "Just minutes earlier, Oswald shot the president from the sixth floor corner window of the building." Allman apparently accepted that as fact. Therefore the term "immediately" was used very loosely.

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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13 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Far more likely that Bookhout was lying than that LHO said anything at all about seeing Shelley, and Shelley not remembering that.

 

I disagree, Paul. What they did was use what Oswald said to try to incriminate him by adding a few extra words to his testimony.

"There was a commotion outside, which he [Oswald] later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on."

Remove that phraseand what Oswald says meets with the situation of being at the front of the TSBD before th shooting.

 

According to the official line, Oswald casually spoke to Hines after the shooting and after being accosted by Baker and Truly. If that was so, he hardly "rushed downstairs"

 

 

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