Jump to content
The Education Forum

Oswald Leaving TSBD?


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:


Unfortunately, these all could have occurred after the alleged 2nd floor Baker/Oswald encounter. And also after Oswald allegedly shot the president. (Two things I don't believe happened, but others do..)

Because even though the Pierce Allman report states, "in the moments immediately after President Kennedy was shot," it also states, "Just minutes earlier, Oswald shot the president from the sixth floor corner window of the building." Allman apparently accepted that as fact. Therefore the term "immediately" was used very loosely.

Like you I don't believe the second floor encounter took place, as believe that Baker and Truly actually went up on the elevator. . For one, Baker's first day affidavit says nothing about the second floor and he says he saw a man walking away from the stairs. This morphs into the second floor encounter after Oswald was dead.

And this is an interesting little tit bit. from Williams to the W.C. being interviewed by Ball.

"Mr. BALL. Now, when you were questioned by the FBI agents, talking to Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, they reported in writing here that while you were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth floor and left the floor. Did you see anything like that? 
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I was up there I saw a motorcycle policeman. He came up. And the only thing I saw of him was his white helmet. 
Mr. BALL. What did he [do]
Mr. WILLIAMS. He just came around, and around to the elevator. 
Mr. BALL. Which elevator? 
Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was the east elevator. 

 

Who the hell  was this policeman, who came up in the elevator, if it wasn't Baker?

Edited by Ray Mitcham
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 3.5k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Ray, as with everything in this case, I think this confusion could be a part of the muddled conjecture caused by imprecise questioning and lack of follow through on ALL levels of the investigation by certain individuals.  In my opinion (and it is only that), Mr. Williams is saying the officer came onto the floor, looked around and went around to the elevator.  This fits with Truly and Baker's testimony that they got on the elevator on the 5th floor and AVOIDED going to the 6th floor by taking it up to the 7th floor (how convenient).  If I am mistaken, please excuse me as I haven't read Mr. Williams' testimony or deposition, just what you posted.  As a side note, Thank you for your comments on earlier posts/questions/comments I have made.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"A police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth floor and left the floor."


Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody with him? 
Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not. 
Mr. BALL. You were only able to see the top of his helmet? 
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. You could only see the top of his helmet 
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is the only thing I saw about it.

Williams didn't see Truly come up with Baker, which if they had appeared together, onto the fifth floor from the stairs, he would have.

Seems that Williams saw Baker's helmet when he poked his head out of the elevator and didn't see Truly.

 

Richard, love it when others join in and put other ideas in. It's only by all working together that we will eventually  complete the jigsaw puzzle.

Edited by Ray Mitcham
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Like you I don't believe the second floor encounter took place, as believe that Baker and Truly actually went up on the elevator. . For one, Baker's first day affidavit says nothing about the second floor and he says he saw a man walking away from the stairs. This morphs into the second floor encounter after Oswald was dead.

And this is an interesting little tit bit. from Williams to the W.C. being interviewed by Ball.

"Mr. BALL. Now, when you were questioned by the FBI agents, talking to Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, they reported in writing here that while you were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth floor and left the floor. Did you see anything like that? 
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I was up there I saw a motorcycle policeman. He came up. And the only thing I saw of him was his white helmet. 
Mr. BALL. What did he [do]
Mr. WILLIAMS. He just came around, and around to the elevator. 
Mr. BALL. Which elevator? 
Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was the east elevator. 

 

Who the hell  was this policeman, who came up in the elevator, if it wasn't Baker?

What a great find!

I don't know the story well enough to know if any other motorcycle cops went inside. But if there was only one motorcycle parked outside, that would be a great clue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have now gone back and done a quick search for Bonnie Ray Williams statements.  The only thing I have found so far is the typed FBI report and his handwritten affidavit for DPD which has a typewritten counterpart that is signed.  The DPD documents differ from the FBI documents in that he says "officers came up", not AN OFFICER.  He also does not say how they came up, or if they were in uniform or plainclothes.  The FBI version makes many more specific claims, but has no signature, no initials and is written from the viewpoint of the interviewer referring to what was told them (supposedly).  To me, the 1st day, 1st person, handwritten/transcribed document would appear to be the most truthful.  Taking that into account, I would say that officers, not AN OFFICER (Baker), came onto the 5th floor, possibly by the elevator.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

I disagree, Paul. What they did was use what Oswald said to try to incriminate him by adding a few extra words to his testimony.

"There was a commotion outside, which he [Oswald] later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on."

Remove that phrase and what Oswald says meets with the situation of being at the front of the TSBD before the shooting.

According to the official line, Oswald casually spoke to Hines after the shooting and after being accosted by Baker and Truly. If that was so, he hardly "rushed downstairs"

Ray,

Actually, I agree with this in principle.  It was far more convincing to attribute lies to Oswald by piecing together words that Oswald actually said with words that Captain Fritz and the conspirators wanted Oswald to say.  

They also pieced together bits of other witnesses' evidence -- forcing these words into Oswald's mouth -- as the WC attorneys themselves suspected, e.g. in the case of Harry Holmes' WC testimony.

So, Ray, despite our many disagreements, we seem to agree on this point -- that the "last words" of Oswald as handed down to us by DPD Captain Will Fritz, Dallas FBI agents James Hosty and James Bookhout, Dallas SS agent Forrest Sorrels and Dallas Postmaster Harry Holmes were twisted and turned any way they wanted to make their case.

They stepped on themselves in several places, however.  First among these was their contradiction of William Shelley -- who had no reason in the world to lie when he said he never saw Oswald at the front door of the TSBD in the minutes after the JFK assassination.

 Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The WC testimony of Dallas Postmaster Harry Holmes is very long -- given in two sessions in April, 1964.  Holmes is among the most interesting witnesses in the entire WC.  Let's take a first look:

--- BEGIN 1st EXTRACT OF WC TESTIMONY OF HARRY HOLMES ------------------

Mr. BELIN. All right, now. Let me ask you this. Just what was the occasion of your joining this interrogation? How did you happen to be there?

Mr. HOLMES. I had been in and out of Captain Fritz' office on numerous occasions during this 2 1/2-day period. On this morning I had no appointment...Captain Fritz motioned to me and said, "We are getting ready to have a last interrogation with Oswald before we transfer him to the county jail. Would you like to join us?" I said, "I would." We went into his private room and closed the door, and those present were Captain Will Fritz, of the Dallas Police Department, Forrest V. Sorrels, local agent in charge of Secret Service, and Thomas J. Kelley, inspector, Secret Service, from Washington, and also about three detectives who were not identified to me, but simply were guarding Oswald who was handcuffed and seated at Will Fritz' desk.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now. Will you state if you remember--do you have a written memorandum there of that interview?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would just let me ask you: When did you make your written memorandum?

Mr. HOLMES. On December 17, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if, using your memorandum to refresh your recollection, you would just say what was said by any of the people there and just cover the whole thing? I will take it up section by section. Just start out. This started around 9:30, is that it, on Sunday morning?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. Now, this is my impression, not what he said.

--- END 1st EXTRACT OF WC TESTIMONY OF HARRY HOLMES ------------------

I will break off here to summarize a few key points.  First, Harry Holmes was a participant in the final interview of Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) in the office of Captain Will Fritz only minutes before LHO was murdered on 11/24/1963.

Secondly, Holmes took no notes at that interview, but later wrote a "memorandum" about it THREE WEEKS LATER.

Thirdly, Holmes admits openly that his "memorandum" represents his "impression" and not what LHO actually said.

With that in mind, let's skip further down to Holmes' recollection of Oswald's description of his Mexico City episode.  Here is what Holmes testified under oath to the WC:

--- BEGIN 2nd EXTRACT OF WC TESTIMONY OF HARRY HOLMES ------------------

Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that he went to Mexico?

Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say what community in Mexico he went to?

Mr. HOLMES. Mexico City.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say what he did while he was there?

Mr. HOLMES. He went to the Mexican consulate, I guess.

Mr. BELIN. Now, with regard to this Mexican trip, did he say who he saw in Mexico?

Mr. HOLMES. Only that he went to the Mexican consulate or Embassy or something and wanted to get permission, or whatever it took to get to Cuba. They refused him and he became angry and he said he burst out of there, and I don't know. I don't recall now why he went into the business about how mad it made him. He goes over to the Russian Embassy. He was already at the American. This was the Mexican -- he wanted to go to Cuba. Then he went to the Russian Embassy and he said, because he said then he wanted to go to Russia by way of Cuba, still trying to get to Cuba and try that angle and they refused and said, "Come back in 30 days," or something like that.  And, he went out of there angry and disgusted.

Mr. BELIN. Did he go to the Cuban Embassy, did he say or not?

Mr. HOLMES. He may have gone there first, but the best of my recollection, it might have been Cuban and then the Russian, wherever he went at first, he wanted to get to Cuba, and then he went to the Russian to go by Cuba.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he wanted to go to Cuba?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. This wasn't reported in your interview in the memorandum that you wrote?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Is this something that you think you might have picked up from just reading the papers, or is this something you remember hearing?

Mr. HOLMES. That is what he said in there.

--- END 2nd EXTRACT OF WC TESTIMONY OF HARRY HOLMES ------------------

I will break here to underscore the question by WC attorney Belin, namely, "Is this something that you think you might have picked up from just reading the papers?"

The details of LHO's Mexico City trip are as fresh and accurate today as if they were read straight out of The Lopez Report (2003).  Could they be truly the words of LHO on 11/24/1963?  Are they not more likely the words of James Hosty and Forrest Sorrels, who were in touch with CIA rogues back in October 1963?

It doesn't seem plausible to me that the tight-lipped Oswald would go into such great detail about his Mexico City trip in the last moments before he was being transferred to the Dallas County Jail.  It seems far more likely to me that Harry Holmes was part of a Dallas conspiracy.

If this is correct, then we must discount anything that Harry Holmes (or any of his co-conspirators) said about LHO being at the front door of the TSBD in the minutes after the JFK assassination. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Richard Price said:

I have now gone back and done a quick search for Bonnie Ray Williams statements.  The only thing I have found so far is the typed FBI report and his handwritten affidavit for DPD which has a typewritten counterpart that is signed.  The DPD documents differ from the FBI documents in that he says "officers came up", not AN OFFICER.  He also does not say how they came up, or if they were in uniform or plainclothes.  The FBI version makes many more specific claims, but has no signature, no initials and is written from the viewpoint of the interviewer referring to what was told them (supposedly).  To me, the 1st day, 1st person, handwritten/transcribed document would appear to be the most truthful.  Taking that into account, I would say that officers, not AN OFFICER (Baker), came onto the 5th floor, possibly by the elevator.

Richard, he said a motorcycle policeman in his Warren Commission testimony.

Truly said that they both (Truly and Baker) walked up to the fifth floor where they then got the elevator up to the seventh floor.

 

Edited by Ray Mitcham
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On August 17, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Sean Murphy said:

 

What marks Prayer Man out is precisely how phlegmatic he appears.

 

8fqHMk9.jpg

--

aFEJIpM.jpg

--does he appear to show the slightest curiosity as to what is happening.

 

Asperger's Syndrome?

i am thinking they had to do 2 things:

-They had to put a Coke in his hands due to some unknown or known testimony or statement or photo that might pop up.

-And they had to put him lower in the building than they originally had planned. They settled with the second floor encounter scenario.

i have to read the Baker and Shelly statements and see what they look like.

 

Edited by Michael Clark
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/6/2017 at 1:41 PM, Paul Trejo said:

Ray,

Too many people claim to have seen LHO in this or that context -- most of them just mistaken about it (e.g. the guy at the gun store, installing a scope for an "Oswald" who didn't even look like LHO).

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Trying to quote mike machanska's post about Larry crafard being the shooter in this pic. But I keep picking up Paul's quote. So I am posting in order troubleshoot. I'll probably delete this if I can't properly edit it.

Edit- can't seem to delete this....

 

 

 

 

IMG_0982.PNG

Edited by Michael Clark
Deleted, tech problems
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/12/2016 at 10:18 PM, Mike Machanska said:

...the shooter could also be Larry Crafard, who was an expert sniper (not sure what arm of military) and he worked closely with Jack Ruby. He left town the day of the assassination and was known to be close friends/crime associates with James (Sutton) Files who many believe was the shooter behind the fence on the grassy knoll..

To be sure, Larry left town the next morning, Saturday. He quit his job at the Carousel and hitchiked to Michigan with $7 in his pocket.

His WC testimony states that on late Friday, 11-22 he got a call from an unknown girl who was calling about a job at the Carousel. After about 4 hours of chatting with her, he states that she said that she was taking a bus out of town in the morning. He never gets her name or where she was headed-to on the bus. After he hangs-up with her, Ruby calls, and tells him to grab a camera and that Ruby was going to pick him up immediately. This is when Ruby, himself and Senator ride around, take pics of the "Impeach Warren" billboard, visit the post office, and drive to a cafe. The cafe is the "Southland Hotel Cafe" according to Senator, although they both place it just off Commerce, not far from the Carousel. George H. W. Bush happened to be staying at the Southland Hotel that night, and it is said that David Atlee Phillips met with Oswald and Vinceza there some weeks before.

Edited by Michael Clark
Spelling
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

....Ruby calls, and tells him to grab a camera and that Ruby was going to pick him up immediately. This is when Ruby, himself and Senator ride around, take pics of the "Impeach Warren" billboard...

What is interesting about the "Impeach Earl Warren" billboards is that they were posted (all over the USA) by the John Birch Society.

This should remind us of what Jack Ruby told Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren himself from his Dallas jail cell on June 7, 1964:

Mr. RUBY. There is an organization here, Chief Justice Warren, if it takes my life at this moment to say it, and Bill Decker said be a man and say it, there is a John Birch Society right now in activity, and Edwin Walker is one of the top men of this organization -- take it for what it is worth, Chief Justice Warren...

Dallas Police, Dallas Deputies and Ex-General Edwin Walker -- here is where we should be looking.   LHO was on the 2nd floor of the TSBD, as Roy Truly and Officer Marrion Baker honestly testified.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...