Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Sandy Larsen]

12 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

I just noticed an EDIT you had done to one of your earlier comments...

On 1/22/2017 at 3:01 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

EDIT: If your point is that I was disputing a comment of yours that wasn't the main point of your post... well, I don't see anything wrong with doing that. My intention is to always point out a fallacy when it is clearly that. For the benefit of newbies. Others who disagree with my assessment are free to do the same.

Oh for crying out loud...

My point was that you were disputing a point that didn't need disputing in the first place as it was irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Yes, that is what I surmised in my edit. And I said, I see nothing wrong with it. This forum doesn't have linear threads

As I said, "My intention is to always point out a fallacy when it is clearly that. For the benefit of newbies. Others who disagree with my assessment are free to do the same."

Edited January 24, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Michael Clark]

If I were a cop I would assume a couple things.

-Other cops are going to be right behind me, so the the front door will be covered in short order.

-The bad guy is not going to be headed towards the front door.

-The bad guy is going to be leaving from the rear or side, if he is leaving.

-I am going to have to knock people around, pretty severely, to get through that mess of  People.

[Sandy Larsen]

28 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Sandy, I do appreciate your Baker photo-analysis and congratulate you on doing it...

Today I spent quite a lot of time watching your clip (both the one posted here, and the one here) and I would like to ask, for confirmation, the grey line is the kerb and the blue line is the path of Baker?

Regards

 

Thank you Alistair.

You are correct. Specifically, the gray line is the bottom of the curb. In one of the gifs you can see the head of Baker's shadow rise up the face of the curb. (I believe this occurs in the very last frame.) This fact can be used to approximate his distance from the sidewalk.

And specifically, the blue line represents where Baker's toes hit the pavement for each step. I had to use a program that allows single-stepping the gif in order to make out where Baker's toes hit the pavement. But in doing so I could easily see where they hit. Obviously the blue line I drew interpolates between steps, and extrapolates for the final step.

The red line represents the woman's footsteps as she runs to the right side of the steps. Her path is pretty much the same as the direction of the crosswalk.

[Alistair Briggs]

 

21 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Yes, that is what I surmised in my edit. And I said, I see nothing wrong with it. This forum doesn't have linear threads

As I said, "My intention is to always point out a fallacy when it is clearly that. For the benefit of newbies. Others who disagree with my assessment are free to do the same."

P.S. I doubt that all your posts are restricted to "topics-at-hand."

By the way, the rest of the paragraph of mine, that you didn't quote above, actually showed exactly why what I said wasn't a fallacy.

Anyroads, looks like you are working your way through a lot of comments (no need to respond to them all btw) hopefully though you will see the one I posted in your other thread... I think good progress can be made there.

6 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Thank you Alistair.

You are correct. Specifically, the gray line is the bottom of the curb. In one of the gifs you can see the head of Baker's shadow rise up the face of the curb. (I believe this occurs in the very last frame.) This fact can be used to approximate his distance from the sidewalk.

And specifically, the blue line represents where Baker's toes hit the pavement for each step. I had to use a program that allows single-stepping the gif in order to make out where Baker's toes hit the pavement. But in doing so I could easily see where they hit. Obviously the blue line I drew interpolates between steps, and extrapolates for the final step.

The red line represents the woman's footsteps as she runs to the right side of the steps. Her path is pretty much the same as the direction of the crosswalk.

You're welcome, Sandy, genuinely I do think it is a neat piece of work.

Just on a point of further clarification, see how the blue line crosses the red line and then goes on further, that blue line is the path that Baker would run on (although we don't see it in the clip? (hope that makes sense)

Regards

P.S. In fairness to the thread title... yep Prayer Man is still on the steps. lol

[Sandy Larsen]

In this gif you can see that the woman running along the red line is running toward the postal box on the right side of the steps.

Then you can see Baker crossing her path. Which means that he is to the right of the steps at that time.

 

Click to enlarge!

 

Here is Baker's last step in slow motion:

Click to enlarge!

 

[Bill Miller]

11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

In this gif you can see that the woman running along the red line is running toward the postal box on the right side of the steps.

Then you can see Baker crossing her path. Which means that he is to the right of the steps

 

You have several errors in your thinking IMO.

1)  The red line runs parallel with the woman's shadow on the ground which for some odd reason is starting from some guys rump. To know the true direction she is walking - you should have placed the line between two recognized reference points known to be directly across the street from one another and watch how she progresses in relation to that line. In other words if the man that has the red line starting on his rump was to start walking towards the stairs from his location, then his shadow would also remain parallel with red line while his feet would eventually make contact with the red line. That very thing is what is happening  with the woman in the coat that the gif references as she isn't walking in the same direction as the red line is pointed, but more towards the stairs. This is supported when in the long version in the previous post ... the bottom of her coat in that clip starts out on the red line (if not slightly below it) and rises away from that line as she steps along.

2)  Patrolman Baker's shadow can be seen crossing over the curb just to the right of the hand-rail going up the middle of the steps. His shadow which is cast to the north east is to the left of the red line when it reaches the curb. That puts Baker in front of the people on the right side of the hand-rail to which would allow him to run up that side of the stairs.

Baker's  starting location was west of the woman walking near the red line, which means his path to get to the curb in front of the steps will be different angle than the woman's walking along the red line even if they were to be meeting at the same spot.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

14 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Sandy, I do appreciate your Baker photo-analysis and congratulate you on doing it...

Today I spent quite a lot of time watching your clip (both the one posted here, and the one here) and I would like to ask, for confirmation, the grey line is the kerb and the blue line is the path of Baker?

Regards

 

Alistair,

Watch Bakers shadow as it nears the red line ... just as its about to make contact with it - it turns to the left and away from it in the last two steps. The shadow tells the careful observer that Patrolman Baker also changed his path so to head up the steps. There can be no argument about this for if Baker had not turned, then the shadow would have had no choice by to cross the red line had it stayed on course. All is left now for Sandy to say that someone removed the original shadow in those last couple of steps and painted in a new one to make it appear that Baker turned towards the stairs.  

" In my world ... "The laws of nature cannot be violated - the laws of nature cannot be changed - the laws of nature require no enforcement "

 

[Ray Mitcham]

On 1/6/2017 at 7:13 PM, Paul Trejo said:

 

"Watch Bakers shadow as it nears the red line ... just as its about to make contact with it - it turns to the left and away from it in the last two steps. The shadow tells the careful observer that Patrolman Baker also changed his path so to head up the steps. There can be no argument about this for if Baker had not turned, then the shadow would have had no choice by to cross the red line had it stayed on course"

No, it doesn't.

[Guest]

2)  Patrolman Baker's shadow can be seen crossing over the curb just to the right of the hand-rail going up the middle of the steps. His shadow which is cast to the north east is to the left of the red line when it reaches the curb. That puts Baker in front of the people on the right side of the hand-rail to which would allow him to run up that side of the stairs.

 

No he is not, he is about to step up the curb.

And logic and common sense defies what you say. If anyone would want to make his way up some stairs hurriedly then he would go for the part where there is movement and not where people are standing still.

More likeley he went to the corner first and looked up the fire escape.

Truly admitted speaking to Brennan, so no nothing storming up the stairs.......

[Bill Miller]

2 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

"Watch Bakers shadow as it nears the red line ... just as its about to make contact with it - it turns to the left and away from it in the last two steps. The shadow tells the careful observer that Patrolman Baker also changed his path so to head up the steps. There can be no argument about this for if Baker had not turned, then the shadow would have had no choice by to cross the red line had it stayed on course"

No, it doesn't.

Ray ... can you offer me more than "no it doesn't" ?

Let us see if we are on the same page at any point and then maybe we can find where one of us has moved off of it.

First this - is Baker's shadow ever paralleling the blue line .... let us start where the top of his shadow starts to pass the woman carrying the purse ------>

 

 

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

If anyone would want to make his way up some stairs hurriedly then he would go for the part where there is movement and not where people are standing still.

I would think just the opposite for those people on the right appear to be in a position to see the Patrolman coming and would know to move in a way to let him through. People walking up the stairs with their back to the officer would not even know he is approaching.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Ray Mitcham]

8 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

Ray ... can you offer me more than "no it doesn't" ?

Let us see if we are on the same page at any point and then maybe we can find where one of us has moved off of it.

First this - is Baker's shadow ever paralleling the blue line .... let us start where the top of his shadow starts to pass the woman carrying the purse ------>

 

 

The shadow appears to move towards the doorway but it is because it has hit the raised curb.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

I would think just the opposite for those people on the right appear to be in a position to see the Patrolman coming and would know to move in a way to let him through. People walking up the stairs with their back to the officer would not even know he is approaching.

What difference does it make whether they know or not, strange logic you use.

Nor did anyone of that lot say they saw Baker.

Not Frazier

Not Molina

Only Sanders, who lied and assisted Reid with her BS lunchroom encounter story.

Truly talked to Brennan!!!!!!! 

[Bill Miller]

4 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

The shadow appears to move towards the doorway but it is because it has hit the raised curb.

Ok - so let us examine the curb part of your response.

It is hard for me to actually hard for me to even see the top of his shadow reach the curb before the man coming from the right blocks the view to Patrolman Baker's shadow. So let us discuss the lower portion of the shadow leading back to Baker. It is clearly not at the curb

25 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

What difference does it make whether they know or not, strange logic you use.

Nor did anyone of that lot say they saw Baker.

Not Frazier

Not Molina

Only Sanders, who lied and assisted Reid with her BS lunchroom encounter story.

Truly talked to Brennan!!!!!!! 

Bart, I am not interested in your excuse that everyone must have lied nonsense. So don't waste your breath on me unless you have nothing better to do. I am interested only at this time what information can be drawn from the film images. There is no evidence that Baker ran to the corner of the building to look up and down Houston and he never mentions doing that in his re-enactment. No one claims to have seem him do that either, nor run across the street to the Dal-Tex building that I am aware of.  If you have witnesses that saw him shoot past the stairs and did any of those things, then I will hear it. If not, then its all jibber-jabber to me and why I am looking towards the info the Darnell film may have to offer.

Thanks!

[Alistair Briggs]

9 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

What difference does it make whether they know or not, strange logic you use.

Nor did anyone of that lot say they saw Baker.

Not Frazier

Not Molina

Only Sanders, who lied and assisted Reid with her BS lunchroom encounter story.

Truly talked to Brennan!!!!!!! 

As Bart says, neither Frazier or Molina saw Baker...

From the WC testimony of Molina.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.

From the WC testimony of Frazier.

Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?
Mr. BALL - A police officer.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.

Bart, can you please point me in the direction of Sanders... and can you point me in the direction of 'Truly talked to Brennan'? Thanks