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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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1 minute ago, Alistair Briggs said:

 

What confusion do you refer to Michael?

Regards. :)

The exact wording between lee and Frazier as to what was in the package. It's the third and fourth Line down. I'm trying to highlight it but my iPad seems to want to highlight one word or a whole paragraph.

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12 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Mr. FRAZIER - Let's see, when I got in the car I have a kind of habit of glancing over my shoulder and so at that time I noticed there was a package laying on the back seat, I didn't pay too much attention and I said, "What's the package, Lee?"
And he said, "Curtain rods," and I said, "Oh, yes, you told me you was going to bring some today."
That is the reason, the main reason he was going over there that Thursday afternoon when he was to bring back some curtain rods, so I didn't think any more about it when he told me that.

This bit?

Regards :)

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23 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

 Just on that subject, until I started looking in to the JFK assassination I didn't know that a rifle could be dismantled. lol ;)

Very relevant, Michael. :)

It speaks to Oswald not taking a lunch in with him, and there are no reports (as far as I know) that Oswald did buy a lunch that day. It's relevant because a lot of theories are predicated on Oswald having lunch.

Kudos. ;)

Thanks Alistair, It also seems to me like someone should have interviewed the lunch truck guy, or nailed down where he got his lunch from. They may have, but I have not seen or heard anything about it. Somewhere I think that I read that he was seen, or claimed to be eating with the colored guys, first or second floor.

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Just now, Michael Clark said:

Thanks Alistair, It also seems to me like someone should have interviewed the lunch truck guy, or nailed down where he got his lunch from. They may have, but I have not seen or heard anything about it. Somewhere I think that I read that he was seen, or claimed to be eating with the colored guys, first or second floor.

Can't say I have seen or heard anything about that either. I wonder if the reason someone didn't go down that route was because Oswald hadn't claimed he had gone out to buy lunch... if memory serves me right, Oswald claimed that the only package he brought in was his lunch.

Here's a bit of Bugliosi's book Four Days In November (no contentions on my part about the veracity of the words, or indeed the style he uses!);

Quote

"Did you bring a sack with you the next morning?"
"I did," Oswald says.
"What was in the sack?" Fritz asks.
"My lunch."
"How big of a sack was it?" Fritz asks. "What was its shape?"
"Oh, I don't recall," Oswald replies, tiring of the cat-and-mouse game. "It may have been a small sack or a large sack, I don't know. You don't always find one that fits your sandwiches just right."
"Where did you put the sack when you got in Wesley's car?" Fritz questions.
"In my lap," Oswald says, "or possibly on the front seat next to me. That's where I always put it because I don't want it to get crushed."
"You didn't put it in the backseat?" Fritz asks.
"I didn't put any package in the backseat," Oswald says vehemently.
"Wesley Frazier says that you brought a long parcel over to his house and put it in the backseat of his car," Fritz tell him. "Do you deny that?"
"Oh he must be mistaken," Oswald claims, "or else thinking about some other time when he picked me up."
"Didn't you tell him you had curtain rods?" Fritz asks.
"Absolutley not!" Oswald snaps. "I never said such a thing."

On the topic of what it is claimed that Oswald said under interrogation, and I repeat, what it is claimed he said, there are a few times when Oswald contradicts himself.


As for the eating with the colored guys. If memory serves me right, I think Oswald claimed he was in the lunchroom and saw two colored guys, not that he was eating with them. Or was it the other way round.

Re: the following bit;

46 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Mr. FRAZIER - Let's see, when I got in the car I have a kind of habit of glancing over my shoulder and so at that time I noticed there was a package laying on the back seat, I didn't pay too much attention and I said, "What's the package, Lee?"
And he said, "Curtain rods," and I said, "Oh, yes, you told me you was going to bring some today."
That is the reason, the main reason he was going over there that Thursday afternoon when he was to bring back some curtain rods, so I didn't think any more about it when he told me that.

 

Is it the brevity of it that you feel is causing confusion Michael?

Regards :)

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4 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

 

Re: the following bit;

Is it the brevity of it that you feel is causing confusion Michael?

Regards :)

Alistair, no, I thought I had read several differing recollections of the quote earlier in this thread. I just wanted to get the WC testimony quoted.

Edited by Michael Clark
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1 minute ago, Michael Clark said:

Alistair, no, I thought I had read several differing recollections of the quote earlier in this thread. I just wanted to get the WC testimony quoted.

Ah, ok, I think I understand you now. :)

There are two points in Frazier's testimony about having a conversation with Oswald about curtain rods. There is the bit you posted above, and earlier in his testimony there is the part about the conversation on the Thursday. Earlier on in this thread I was talking about the first one (chronologically) and Paul then was talking about the second one

Re: The conversation on the Thursday between Frazier and Oswald (quoted from his WC testimony)

Quote

Now, there was the one date that Oswald came to you and asked you to drive him back to Irving, it was not a Friday, was it?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; it wasn't.
Mr. BALL - It was on a Thursday.
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Was that the 21st of November?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Well, tell us about that.
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say, we were standing like I said at the four-headed table about half as large as this, not, quite half as large, but anyway I was standing there getting the orders in and he said, "Could I ride home with you this afternoon?"
And I said, "Sure. You know, like I told you, you can go home with me any time you want to, like I say anytime you want to go see your wife that is all right with me."
So automatically I knew it wasn't Friday, I come to think it wasn't Friday and I said, "Why are you going home today?"
And he says, "I am going home to get some curtain rods." He said, "You know, put in an apartment."
He wanted to hang up some curtains and I said, "Very well." And I never thought more about it and I had some invoices in my hands for some orders and I walked on off and started filling the orders.

Re: The conversation on the Friday morning between Frazier and Oswald (quoted from his WC testimony)

Quote

When you got in the car did you say anything to him or did he say anything to you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Let's see, when I got in the car I have a kind of habit of glancing over my shoulder and so at that time I noticed there was a package laying on the back seat, I didn't pay too much attention and I said, "What's the package, Lee?"
And he said, "Curtain rods," and I said, "Oh, yes, you told me you was going to bring some today."
That is the reason, the main reason he was going over there that Thursday afternoon when he was to bring back some curtain rods, so I didn't think any more about it when he told me that.

Regards :)

P.S. A pertinent follow on question is why did Oswald go home that day (if it wasn't for the rifle and wasn't for curtain rods). ;)

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2 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

...The thing about the 'bathroom remark'... just to repeat what I said earlier;
"it doesn't have to be a 'sexual' thing.

Also of note is that Frazier didn't say he liked to 'mess around', he said some of the guys like to mess around.

I do think you are making the proverbial 'mountains out of molehills' with regards to the comment 'mess around'.

Regards

Alistair,

I think you're underplaying Frazier's "bathroom remark."   It wasn't just the term, "mess around," that stood out, but it was the entire context.  Attorney Ball was simply asking Frazier where LHO was when Frazier first laid eyes on him.  Nothing else.  Here's what Frazier replied:

Mr. Ball: Where was he when you first saw him? 
Mr. FRAZIER:  ...It was on the first floor there. 
Mr. BALL:  Did Shelly introduce you to him or did you go up and shake hands with him? 
Mr. FRAZIER:  ...I hadn't been there very long, you know, living in Dallas and so I wanted to make friends with everybody I could, because you know yourself friendship is something you can't buy with money and you always need friends, so I went up and introduced and he told me his name was Lee and I said "We are glad to have you."  We got talking back and forth and he come to find out I knew his wife was staying there at the time with this other woman and so I thought he would go out there and...I told him if he wanted a ride any other time just let me know before I go off and leave him because when it comes to quitting time some of these guys, you know, some of them mess around the bathroom and some of them quit early and some of them like that, and some leave at different times than others.  But I said from talking to him then, I say, he just wanted to ride home on weekends with me and I said that was fine. 

It's just that the "bathroom" answer to the simple question has nothing to do with the question -- it is more than we need to know.   It seems related, on the other hand, to the clause that LHO's "wife was staying there at the time with this other woman."  

IMHO, Frazier was unconsciously confessing his inner life here -- and it provides a clue regarding why Frazier always remained more trusting, and more protective of LHO than any other TSBD worker.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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3 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

"Buell would later tell the Warren Commission, set up to investigate the shooting, that he didn't think the brown paper package was long enough to be a rifle.To this day he doesn't believe Oswald was carrying a gun.

 

Members of the panel, who included Gerald Ford, later to become 38th President, insisted he must have been mistaken about the brown package carried by Oswald. 

 

'I told them it wasn't big enough to be a rifle, but they said I must have been mistaken,' he said.  'They asked if I was traumatized by the events, but I wasn't. I know what I saw and the package was about two foot in length. I know how long a rifle is and it is not two feet.

'I came under a lot of pressure to change my story, but I refused. I told them what I saw and I know they did not like it.' "

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3326233/I-drove-Lee-Harvey-Oswald-book-depository-don-t-believe-shot-JFK-52-years-assassination-Oswald-s-friend-says-convinced-patsy-real-gunman-grassy-knoll.html

 

Michael, 

You notice something too cozy in this protection of LHO -- i.e. that Frazier always insisted that the package was too short to contain a rifle anyway.  Besides that, Frazier was convinced that the shots didn't come from the TSBD.  Here was his answer to that:  

Mr. BALL: ...Now, you say you heard these three sounds which you later thought were probably shots, you thought it came from a certain direction.  Can you tell us from what direction as illustrated on the map? 
Mr. FRAZIER:  Right. Now I say, you know where it is -- the straight curve that goes under the underpass. 
Mr. BALL:  That is the parkway? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right...I say these railroad tracks -- there is a series of them that come up over this, up over this overpass there, and from where I was standing, I say, it is my true opinion, that is what I thought, it sounded like it came from over there, in the railroad tracks. 
Mr. BALL - That would be east and south? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No; that would be....more or less west and north...

So, in the eyes of Wesley Buell Frazier, LHO was never guilty of taking his rifle to the TSBD in the first place, and in the second place, the shots that killed JFK didn't come from the TSBD, anyway.

If we follow Frazier's logic, then -- the Dallas Police and the Warren Commission truly messed up by blaming LHO for the JFK murder.   We might conclude, then, that Wesley Buell Frazier was one of the first CTers in US history.

Based on this logic -- if Frazier had been standing next to LHO (i.e. Prayer Man) on the front steps, it seems absolutely certain he would have insisted upon this testimony.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

P.S. A pertinent follow on question is why did Oswald go home that day (if it wasn't for the rifle and wasn't for curtain rods). ;)

Alistair,

Gerry Patrick Hemming told A.J. Weberman that he personally called LHO from Miami on 11/21/1964, to offer LHO double the price of his Manlicher-Carcano rifle if he would bring it to the TSBD in the morning, and hand it over to a person whom they both knew.

Since we now have evidence that Gerry Patrick Hemming was connected to Guy Banister in New Orleans (Caufield, 2015), and we know for a fact that LHO was connected with Guy Banister in New Orleans (544 Camp Street), the connection between LHO and Gerry Patrick Hemming is eminently plausible.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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Based on this logic -- if Frazier had been standing next to LHO (i.e. Prayer Man) on the front steps, it seems absolutely certain he would have insisted upon this testimony.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

While I am not buying into the romance angle, and after reading Frazier's recent(ish) account, to which I posted a link, I am inclined to agree..... IF that is WBF on the steps. If it is not WBF, PM could still be LHO.

Michael

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10 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

...While I am not buying into the romance angle, and after reading Frazier's recent(ish) account, to which I posted a link, I am inclined to agree..... IF that is WBF on the steps. If it is not WBF, PM could still be LHO.

Michael

Michael,

Yes, that's my feeling, too.  If that is not Wesley Buell Frazier on the steps next to Prayer Man, then Prayer Man might be LHO.  But if that was Frazier standing there, then he would have testified to that -- because Frazier was very protective of LHO, and this would have exonerated LHO very quickly.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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5 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

Gerry Patrick Hemming told A.J. Weberman that he personally called LHO from Miami on 11/21/1964, to offer LHO double the price of his Manlicher-Carcano rifle if he would bring it to the TSBD in the morning, and hand it over to a person whom they both knew.

Since we now have evidence that Gerry Patrick Hemming was connected to Guy Banister in New Orleans (Caufield, 2015), and we know for a fact that LHO was connected with Guy Banister in New Orleans (544 Camp Street), the connection between LHO and Gerry Patrick Hemming is eminently plausible.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

$25 to bring a rifle to your work place, where the President is expected to cruise-buy the next day, and become an accessory to the assassination of the President? What kind of assassin would be calling 24 hrs ahead of time, looking for a crappy rifle to shoot a President? And who would involve themselves in such nonsense? I wouldn't take my gun out to shoot a deer without knowing that I could group 5 rounds in a 4" circle at 125 yards. No assassin would just take a rifle like that from a guy and use it to shoot a head of state, and no one would take such an offer seriously. 

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19 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

$25 to bring a rifle to your work place, where the President is expected to cruise-buy the next day, and become an accessory to the assassination of the President? What kind of assassin would be calling 24 hrs ahead of time, looking for a crappy rifle to shoot a President? And who would involve themselves in such nonsense? I wouldn't take my gun out to shoot a deer without knowing that I could group 5 rounds in a 4" circle at 125 yards. No assassin would just take a rifle like that from a guy and use it to shoot a head of state, and no one would take such an offer seriously. 

Michael,

This is what A.J. Weberman and Bud Fensterwald published in NODULE 15, back in the late 1970's.

What makes it plausible is the book by Jeff Caufield, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: the Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015).

In other words, LHO was a Fake Leftist -- pretending to be an officer of the FPCC in New Orleans at 544 Camp Street.  LHO was a secret member of the Radical Right -- trying hard to get accepted into the CIA.  He worked with various mercenaries there in New Orleans, along with Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall, Larry Howard, Roscoe White and various members of Interpen, and several Cuban Expatriate mercenaries.

Their group also included many mercenaries (not CIA Agents) and many Fake CIA Agents, including Frank Sturgis, David Ferrie, Jack S. Martin, and Fred Crisman (cf. Joan Mellen, 2005).  The likelihood seems high to me that these Fake CIA Agents were promsing LHO that he could get a steady job in the CIA if he played his cards right.

So, in my reading, LHO was very cozy with Guy Banister and Gerry Patrick Hemming.  In that context, as a CIA-wannabe, LHO would be naive enough to do exactly what A.J. Weberman reported in NODULE 15 (ca. 1975), namely, bring his Mannlicher Carcano rifle to the TSBD for a friend of Gerry Patrick Hemming -- his trusted ally.

Naive -- but not impossible.  (Besides that, $25 in 1963 was like $250 today, and LHO had no apartment for his wife and two babies.  So, the motivation was there.)

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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