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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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5 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

This is what A.J. Weberman and Bud Fensterwald published in NODULE 15, back in the late 1970's.

What makes it plausible is the book by Jeff Caufield, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: the Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015).

.................,,,,.,,,

Naive -- but not impossible.  (Besides that, $25 in 1963 was like $250 today, and LHO had no apartment for his wife and two babies.  So, the motivation was there.)

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

I get it. And I can also come up, in my head, with other scenarios where WBF still has a hand in it.

But, alas, I find myself theorizing about LHO and the TSBD, and I don't think JFK was shot from there. I usually try to avoid this area of the conspiracy but I end up finding my way here anyhow.

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23 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

...I find myself theorizing about LHO and the TSBD, and I don't think JFK was shot from there. I usually try to avoid this area of the conspiracy but I end up finding my way here anyhow.

Michael,

IMHO, JFK was shot from three locations: (1) the Grassy Knoll; (2) the TSBD; and (3) the DalTex building.  There were at least 6 shots, coordinated by an umbrella signal and walkie-talkies.  It was a military-style ambush -- very carefully orchestrated, with high-ranking members of the Dallas Police inside the plot, working with Guy Banister in New Orleans, and General Walker in Dallas (and included Roscoe White and J.D. Tippit).

Perhaps the best summary of this CT can be found in two books:

1. Treachery in Dallas (1996) by Walt Brown

2. General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: the Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015) by Jeff Caufield.

LHO was not one of the shooters -- but the shooters did have possession of LHO's rifle.  So LHO was their Patsy, and LHO actually knew who some of them were.

The WC testimony of certain members of the Dallas Police, some Deputies, and the top brass of the DPD, along with the WC testimony of General Edwin Walker, Robert Alan Surrey, Revilo P. Oliver, Bernie Weissman, Robert Klause and Postmaster Harry Holmes can be interpreted to reveal this plot.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Edited by Paul Trejo
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28 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

I get it. And I can also come up, in my head, with other scenarios where WBF still has a hand in it...

Michael,

I myself am not coming up with any of this CT in my head -- I'm taking it from eye-witness reports and WC testimony.  It's the evidence that fits together.  That's my interpretation, I agree, but I always rely on eye-witness reports.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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3 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

couchloveladyshelley7l8kuy.gif

...(NB: it is still in dispute whether it is or isn't Shelley and Lovelady in the clip) (To be fair, Paul, I did point this out to you a while ago in this comment)...

Regards.

Alistair,

I appreciate this suggestion from the Prayer Man film (as I call it).   I doubt it is Shelley and Lovelady, because Shelley was quite a bit older than the taller man in this flim.  That's my opinion.

If (and only if) it really is Bill Shelly and Billy Lovelady, then we seem to have a problem, because they seem to be walking directly away from Prayer Man, so it is more likely that they saw Prayer Man standing at the doorway, since they were there in the doorway themselves only seconds before this film clip.

Billy Lovelady actually testified to the WC that he was sometimes "sitting on the steps."

But IMHO it isn't Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.  As I recall, Bill Shelley was a middle-aged man, while Billy Lovelady was young, whereas both men in this film clip appear to be young.

Besides that -- as you noted Alistair -- both Shelly and Lovelady testified that they were standing on "that little old island" when they looked back to see Officer Marrion Truly run up the TSBD steps.   That is not the case with these two men in this film clip.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

I think you're underplaying Frazier's "bathroom remark."  

Whether I'm underplaying it, or you are overplaying it, it doesn't matter, it's not really leading anywhere of value. Either way (if you are right, or I am right) it's not leading to show that Oswald is innocent simply because following it through both ways lead away from Oswald being Prayer Man, it's just that your 'overplaying' leads more away from it... and I know you realise that because you went on to say,

 

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

But if that was Frazier standing there, then he would have testified to that -- because Frazier was very protective of LHO, and this would have exonerated LHO very quickly.

A good, you do see it...

To all intents and purposes, it is Frazier on the steps - or at least I don't think it has ever been in doubt. So really you are saying Prayer Man can't be Oswald.

(I don't think Prayer Man is Oswald anyway, of course, if a better quality clip was to surface that showed it was unequivocally Oswald then that would be a big game changer)

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6 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

I get it. And I can also come up, in my head, with other scenarios where WBF still has a hand in it.

But, alas, I find myself theorizing about LHO and the TSBD, and I don't think JFK was shot from there. I usually try to avoid this area of the conspiracy but I end up finding my way here anyhow.

Michael, you are not alone in thinking that JFK was not shot from the TSBD. And that would of course exonerate Oswald! It would also, surely, mean he wasn't being set up. lol If there were no shots fired from the TSBD at all (whether hitting JFK or missing him) then how could there be a 'conspiracy' to frame Oswald as a shooter from the TSBD. What kind of conspirators would want to set up Oswald as a 6th floor TSBD shooter and then not take at least one shot from that location. lol

As you can see, Paul has shots coming from elsewhere too, but does have at least one shot coming from the TSBD as it's the only way the 'conspirators' can set up Oswald as a patsy.

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

IMHO, JFK was shot from three locations: (1) the Grassy Knoll; (2) the TSBD; and (3) the DalTex building.  There were at least 6 shots, coordinated by an umbrella signal and walkie-talkies. 

LHO was not one of the shooters -- but the shooters did have possession of LHO's rifle.  So LHO was their Patsy, and LHO actually knew who some of them were.

The way I look at it (and Paul seems to be in agreeance), if the conspirators were setting up Oswald as a 6th floor TSBD shooter then, no matter where else shots also came from, there had to be at least one shot from the 6th floor TSBD from a rifle that could be, at least, linked to Oswald. Paul has stated that it was Oswald's rifle... the question is who brought it in to the TSBD...

... Paul, you earlier said that you felt that Oswald brought the rifle in and passed it off to someone else, and I'm sure you mentioned earlier that he brought it in that morning. If that's the case, delving too deeply in to Frazier's testimony may lead away from that, because Frazier says the package was (in his opinion) too small to carry a rifle (pretty sure he didn't actually measure it though so really he is just guestimating anyway)...

 

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6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

I appreciate this suggestion from the Prayer Man film (as I call it).   I doubt it is Shelley and Lovelady, because Shelley was quite a bit older than the taller man in this flim.  That's my opinion.

Yes Shelley was a bit older than Lovelady.

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

If (and only if) it really is Bill Shelly and Billy Lovelady, then we seem to have a problem, because they seem to be walking directly away from Prayer Man, so it is more likely that they saw Prayer Man standing at the doorway, since they were there in the doorway themselves only seconds before this film clip.

Nope, no problem whatsoever. If it is them walking away then they would have seen Prayer Man in the doorway, but if it's not them walking away then they would still be on the steps seeing Prayer Man.

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Billy Lovelady actually testified to the WC that he was sometimes "sitting on the steps."

And? Your point is? Lovelady testified that he was out on the steps for approx. 30 minutes, and yes he testified what you are saying, he also testified that he ate his lunch on the steps. He had 30 minutes to do all that, and no doubt at some point, as he said, he was sometimes 'sitting on the steps'. So, again, your point is?

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Besides that -- as you noted Alistair -- both Shelly and Lovelady testified that they were standing on "that little old island" when they looked back to see Officer Marrion Truly run up the TSBD steps.   That is not the case with these two men in this film clip.

I never noted that at all! Both of them never testified that they were standing on 'that little old island'! Shelley testified to that, Lovelady didn't! Lovelady said only that both he and Shelley had walked a maximum of 25 steps away from the steps of the TSBD when they 'saw' 'Baker/Truly move towards the door - and that ties in with the clip...

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

But IMHO it isn't Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.  As I recall, Bill Shelley was a middle-aged man, while Billy Lovelady was young, whereas both men in this film clip appear to be young.

Define 'middle-aged', and define 'young'... why not state how old you think both are?

Instead of just throwing out that you 'recall' Shelley was 'middle-aged' and Lovelady was 'young' why not go and find out how old they both were. It took me like 5 seconds to find out that information... at the time of the assassination of Kennedy;

Shelley: 37 years old
Lovelady: 25 years old

So yeah, Shelley was 'quite a bit older' than Lovelady, but so what... photos of both of them on that day are freely available and does it look like there is a huge difference in look of age?

As something of a comparison, here is a photo of someone who is 25 beside a person who is 37...

5ddd249648b71fd38def73d5f9cd7cfc.jpg

Regards

P.S. also, why not have a look at THIS ARTICLE from the Prayer-Man website about it all.

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The more I watch this slowed version of the two men - they are much closer to the island side of the street than the opposite side from which they came. It also appears that after passing the running woman who turns her head towards them in passing as if saying something ... the men look like they may have headed for the Island once they passed the rear of the car they were next to.

In the still image below ... the two men look too big compared to the car across the street that was parked along the TSBD, but they do match more in size to the car parked near the tree on the Island.

 

Lovelady-and-Shelly-in-Couch-1.jpg

Couch film capture_2.jpg

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4 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

The more I watch this slowed version of the two men - they are much closer to the island side of the street than the opposite side from which they came. It also appears that after passing the running woman who turns her head towards them in passing as if saying something ... the men look like they may have headed for the Island once they passed the rear of the car they were next to.

Bill, I reckon you are on to something there about being closer to the island side of the street...

You have a keen eye and a good understanding of perspective, what are your thoughts about the synchronized Couch/Darnell clip?

darnellcouchsync24fpsa6kkb.gif

 

Regards

P.S. Woah, I just noticed something about that clip that astonished me. The time of that clip is said to be no more than 30 seconds after the shots, is that defintely accurate?

 

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Aside from the whole Prayer Woman discussion, has there ever been other theories regarding the identity of Prayer Man - except for LHO and Lovelady? I guess we can discard the Lovelady theory as he has been positively placed elsewhere on the stairs right? But who else could it be other than a stranger then, who walked past and wanted to get an elevated view of the motorcade? But one would think that any other person than LHO would have been ID'ed by now? And I can't see how it could have been LHO since no one saw him there..

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34 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Bill, I reckon you are on to something there about being closer to the island side of the street...

You have a keen eye and a good understanding of perspective, what are your thoughts about the synchronized Couch/Darnell clip?

darnellcouchsync24fpsa6kkb.gif

 

Regards

P.S. Woah, I just noticed something about that clip that astonished me. The time of that clip is said to be no more than 30 seconds after the shots, is that defintely accurate?

 

Please tell us what you noticed Alistair! 

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8 minutes ago, Henrik Fendt said:

Aside from the whole Prayer Woman discussion, has there ever been other theories regarding the identity of Prayer Man - except for LHO and Lovelady? I guess we can discard the Lovelady theory as he has been positively placed elsewhere on the stairs right? But who else could it be other than a stranger then, who walked past and wanted to get an elevated view of the motorcade? But one would think that any other person than LHO would have been ID'ed by now? And I can't see how it could have been LHO since no one saw him there..

Henrik, a great comment, and great questions you have asked. :)

Lovelady can be discarded because he is visible at the same time as PM can be seen in the Weigman film... (here's a frame from it)

8fqHMk9.jpg

Could PM be a stranger? Personally, I highly doubt that as it is quite an unusual place for a stranger to be standing, logically it had to be someone that worked there, or at least connected to it imo. Also it's not really the best place to see the motorcade from anyway imo.

As for other possible people... well, from digging about I constructed a list of those that claimed to be on the steps at the time of the shots and tried to cross-reference it with who they said they were with at the time....

Avery Davis - (McCully)
Judith McCully - (Davis)
Ruth Dean - (Reese)
Maddie Reese (Dean)
Pauline Sanders - (Stanton)
Sarah Stanton - (Shelley, Sanders, Lovelady)
Carl Jones - (lovelady)
Roy Lewis
Frazier - (Shelley, Lovelady, Stanton)
Lovelady - (Shelley, Stanton)
Molina - (Frazier, Stanton)
Williams  - (Sanders)

(note that the couch/darnell clip above was approx 30 seconds after the shots, and the wiegmann clip was before that, but still after the shots) between the weigman clip and the couch/darnell clip people could have moved - example Carl Jones can be seen in the wiegmann frame 'leaning' against the wall at the bottom left (as we look at it) of the steps, and it is him (imo) that can be seen in the couch/darnell clip moving up to and standing at the traffic lights.

I think for varying reasons everyone on that list has been discounted as being PM. (If PM was a man then it rules out the females, he looks white so that rules out Jones and Lewis, can't be Lovelady, as noted above, Shelley, Molina and Williams were dressed differently)

There is much pointing to it being Oswald, but as you mentioned none of the others admitted to seeing him there, indeed none of them admitted to seeing any 'stranger' there either... could they all just not have seen whoever it was there? Could it have been Oswald and the rest are keeping schtum about it? Or could it actually be one of the people listed above? Or could it be someone else entirely?

There are those that are convinced that it is Oswald (and there is much pointing to that), there are others who are not convinced. Personally, unless a better clip turns up that is genuine showing who it actually is, I don't think it will be totally solved.

Regards

P.S. I did at one point have a really wild guess at who PM might have been; an ex-employee whose brother still worked at the building and he turned up to meet with his brother but unbenkownst to him his brother wasn't at work that day. lol It was a wild thought that I never delved in to really. Mostly because no one mentioned him being there. lol

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Henrik, a great comment, and great questions you have asked. :)

Lovelady can be discarded because he is visible at the same time as PM can be seen in the Weigman film... (here's a frame from it)

8fqHMk9.jpg

Could PM be a stranger? Personally, I highly doubt that as it is quite an unusual place for a stranger to be standing, logically it had to be someone that worked there, or at least connected to it imo. Also it's not really the best place to see the motorcade from anyway imo.

As for other possible people... well, from digging about I constructed a list of those that claimed to be on the steps at the time of the shots and tried to cross-reference it with who they said they were with at the time....

Avery Davis - (McCully)
Judith McCully - (Davis)
Ruth Dean - (Reese)
Maddie Reese (Dean)
Pauline Sanders - (Stanton)
Sarah Stanton - (Shelley, Sanders, Lovelady)
Carl Jones - (lovelady)
Roy Lewis
Frazier - (Shelley, Lovelady, Stanton)
Lovelady - (Shelley, Stanton)
Molina - (Frazier, Stanton)
Williams  - (Sanders)

(note that the couch/darnell clip above was approx 30 seconds after the shots, and the wiegmann clip was before that, but still after the shots) between the weigman clip and the couch/darnell clip people could have moved - example Carl Jones can be seen in the wiegmann frame 'leaning' against the wall at the bottom left (as we look at it) of the steps, and it is him (imo) that can be seen in the couch/darnell clip moving up to and standing at the traffic lights.

I think for varying reasons everyone on that list has been discounted as being PM. (If PM was a man then it rules out the females, he looks white so that rules out Jones and Lewis, can't be Lovelady, as noted above, Shelley, Molina and Williams were dressed differently)

There is much pointing to it being Oswald, but as you mentioned none of the others admitted to seeing him there, indeed none of them admitted to seeing any 'stranger' there either... could they all just not have seen whoever it was there? Could it have been Oswald and the rest are keeping schtum about it? Or could it actually be one of the people listed above? Or could it be someone else entirely?

There are those that are convinced that it is Oswald (and there is much pointing to that), there are others who are not convinced. Personally, unless a better clip turns up that is genuine showing who it actually is, I don't think it will be totally solved.

Regards

P.S. I did at one point have a really wild guess at who PM might have been; an ex-employee whose brother still worked at the building and he turned up to meet with his brother but unbenkownst to him his brother wasn't at work that day. lol It was a wild thought that I never delved in to really. Mostly because no one mentioned him being there. lol

 

 

Thank you very much for your detailed reply Alistair, much appreciated. The reason I joined this forum is because I feel (like many of us I'm sure) that my mind won't come to rest until the JFK murder is totally solved - will it ever be, or has it already been? But now I feel my mind won't come to rest until I know who Prayer Man is, so I guess that would have to be step number 1 on my way to rest my mind :) 

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7 minutes ago, Henrik Fendt said:

Thank you very much for your detailed reply Alistair, much appreciated. The reason I joined this forum is because I feel (like many of us I'm sure) that my mind won't come to rest until the JFK murder is totally solved - will it ever be, or has it already been? But now I feel my mind won't come to rest until I know who Prayer Man is, so I guess that would have to be step number 1 on my way to rest my mind :) 

May I suggest, Hendrik, that the focus on LHO is not a very productive endeavor. LHO was meant to be and always has been a distraction. It makes perfect sense that proving that LHO didn't or could not have done it would be huge milestone, but I don't think that really leads to who did do it. If, for example, Frazier came out and said that PM is Oswald, then everyone would need to shift gears and turn to the next question. You don't need to exonerate LHO before you shift those gears and turn. Right now, my focus is on JR and his host of characters and what they were doing between between 7AM on 11-22 and 8PM on 11-23. It looks like fertile ground to me. Reading the WC testimonies is a good place to look. IMHO

Cheers, 

Michael

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5 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

May I suggest, Hendrik, that the focus on LHO is not a very productive endeavor. LHO was meant to be and always has been a distraction. It makes perfect sense that proving that LHO didn't or could not have done it would be huge milestone, but I don't think that really leads to who did do it. If, for example, Frazier came out and said that PM is Oswald, then everyone would need to shift gears and turn to the next question. You don't need to exonerate LHO before you shift those gears and turn. Right now, my focus is on JR and his host of characters and what they were doing between between 7AM on 11-22 and 8PM on 11-23. It looks like fertile ground to me. Reading the WC testimonies is a good place to look. IMHO

Cheers, 

Michael

Thanks Michael, I think you make a good point. I do think LHO is a very interesting person, and I'm still intrigued by who PM could be. But I do agree that the entire answer to the mystery surrounding the assassination should be found many levels higher than LHO.

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