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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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I disagree with your comment,"It makes perfect sense that proving that LHO didn't or could not have done it would be huge milestone, but I don't think that really leads to who did do it", Michael, for one reason.We don't have to prove who did it, We just have to prove it was a conspiracy.Once that is proved then we can move on the who was responsible.

(IMO we have already shown-but not proven- that it was a conspiracy)

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14 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

This is what A.J. Weberman and Bud Fensterwald published in NODULE 15, back in the late 1970's.

What makes it plausible is the book by Jeff Caufield, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: the Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015).

In other words, LHO was a Fake Leftist -- pretending to be an officer of the FPCC in New Orleans at 544 Camp Street.  LHO was a secret member of the Radical Right -- trying hard to get accepted into the CIA.  He worked with various mercenaries there in New Orleans, along with Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall, Larry Howard, Roscoe White and various members of Interpen, and several Cuban Expatriate mercenaries.

Their group also included many mercenaries (not CIA Agents) and many Fake CIA Agents, including Frank Sturgis, David Ferrie, Jack S. Martin, and Fred Crisman (cf. Joan Mellen, 2005).  The likelihood seems high to me that these Fake CIA Agents were promsing LHO that he could get a steady job in the CIA if he played his cards right.

So, in my reading, LHO was very cozy with Guy Banister and Gerry Patrick Hemming.  In that context, as a CIA-wannabe, LHO would be naive enough to do exactly what A.J. Weberman reported in NODULE 15 (ca. 1975), namely, bring his Mannlicher Carcano rifle to the TSBD for a friend of Gerry Patrick Hemming -- his trusted ally.

Naive -- but not impossible.  (Besides that, $25 in 1963 was like $250 today, and LHO had no apartment for his wife and two babies.  So, the motivation was there.)

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

I have wondered for a long time if Oswald's entire role in the plot was to deliver the rifle to the TSBD and nothing else (in his own mind at least)? IMO that would explain the brown package (if we assume that Frazier is wrong about the size) and it would also explain why Oswald could be another place in the building at the same time as the shooting.

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19 minutes ago, Henrik Fendt said:

I have wondered for a long time if Oswald's entire role in the plot was to deliver the rifle to the TSBD and nothing else (in his own mind at least)? IMO that would explain the brown package (if we assume that Frazier is wrong about the size) and it would also explain why Oswald could be another place in the building at the same time as the shooting.

I find it difficult to believe that a conspiracy of this magnitude would revolve around LHO changing his Thursday routine to get home and return to the TSBD on Friday with a rifle sitting on the back seat of WBF's car, and then walking into work, with WBF, with the rifle under his arm. 

Edited by Michael Clark
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1 hour ago, Henrik Fendt said:

Thank you very much for your detailed reply Alistair, much appreciated. The reason I joined this forum is because I feel (like many of us I'm sure) that my mind won't come to rest until the JFK murder is totally solved - will it ever be, or has it already been? But now I feel my mind won't come to rest until I know who Prayer Man is, so I guess that would have to be step number 1 on my way to rest my mind :) 

Statistically, it probably has been solved (not totally solved of course. ;) ) no doubt one of the theories on it that has been put forward is probably the correct one. There are so many theories put forward... Not sure if your mind will ever be at rest, Henrik; it's the nature of the beast. If you found out for sure who Prayer Man was, either way, it doesn't solve much about the case, just moves it on to the next step - which, as Michael said, can be looked at without proving who PM was...

It's a fascinating case.

 

53 minutes ago, Henrik Fendt said:

I have wondered for a long time if Oswald's entire role in the plot was to deliver the rifle to the TSBD and nothing else (in his own mind at least)? IMO that would explain the brown package (if we assume that Frazier is wrong about the size) and it would also explain why Oswald could be another place in the building at the same time as the shooting.

Yep, good point.

If Oswald was being set up as the 'patsy' they couldn't allow Oswald to be in a noticable place outside at the time or their set up is blown, they would need to keep him somewhere secluded, unless he was going along with the set up of course, or if he didn't know he was being set up but realised too late would he not have gone more public than 'hiding' in the PM position. If Oswald didn't 'deliver' the rifle, what was in his package and what happened to it and how did his rifle get there, if indeed it was his rifle. If he was being set up as the 6th floor shooter why have shots elsewhere too - to complete the job yet run the risk of discovery. If he was being set up why does no one mention a stranger in the building, are they keeping quiet, or was it someone else who worked there. How did they get out the building unseen before it was blocked off.

Question, to question, to question, to question - it never ends. lol

 

1 hour ago, Henrik Fendt said:

... But I do agree that the entire answer to the mystery surrounding the assassination should be found many levels higher than LHO.

Should be. ;) Probably is. ;) Not necessarily so...

Ray made a great point when he said;

1 hour ago, Ray Mitcham said:

(IMO we have already shown-but not proven- that it was a conspiracy)

A great point.

How to define a conspiracy though? For me, personally, anything that proves the WC conclusion even is partly wrong proves a conspiracy.

Regards

P.S. welcome to the forum Henrik. :)

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2 hours ago, Henrik Fendt said:

Aside from the whole Prayer Woman discussion, has there ever been other theories regarding the identity of Prayer Man - except for LHO and Lovelady? I guess we can discard the Lovelady theory as he has been positively placed elsewhere on the stairs right? But who else could it be other than a stranger then, who walked past and wanted to get an elevated view of the motorcade? But one would think that any other person than LHO would have been ID'ed by now? And I can't see how it could have been LHO since no one saw him there..

Henrik,

Do you know what all the employees looked like who worked in and around the TSBD ... including any people who were working on the building?  I would like to see photos of them, but I assume there are not any.  It's also worth noting that in the amount of time before the stairs were ever filmed - there was ample time for anyone on the street to have moved up the steps to get a higher vantage point. Not saying someone did, just saying no one has ruled that out as far as I know.

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31 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Ray made a great point when he said;

A great point.

How to define a conspiracy though? For me, personally, anything that proves the WC conclusion even is partly wrong proves a conspiracy.

Regards

P.S. welcome to the forum Henrik. :)

The HSCA admitted there was a 95% chance there was a conspiracy bases on the evidence.

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3 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Bill, I reckon you are on to something there about being closer to the island side of the street...

You have a keen eye and a good understanding of perspective, what are your thoughts about the synchronized Couch/Darnell clip?

Thanks! There is always evidence in a photo or film if one looks hard enough for it. I knew when some said that Lovelady and Shelley walked straight to the RR Yard and down the middle of the street was not correct. Had that been the case, then they would have decreased in size as they kept moving away. And maybe they started in that direction because they saw Calvery coming from there and crying (?) - but once they passed the running woman, then moved closer to the Island and the camera or else their heads would not have increased in size. (see illustration)  The width between two reference points in the background was used to scale the  two images in width size.

Couch%20film%20capture_1%20copy_zpsbrydy

Not so certain they are exact because they were filmed from two different locations. Not the large door in the background and its relation to the street light pole. Quite a shift takes place. In that sense they are not perfectly in sync with each other.  The President's car has left the Plaza and Baker said he had heard the radio call about getting up into the RR Yard to see what had just occurred up there before running to the TSBD. So an estimate of 20 to 30 seconds is probably correct  while leaving room for a lot of things to have taken place in that amount of time.

 

 

lovelady head.jpg

Edited by Bill Miller
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35 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

I think this is a good place to post this.

Michael, strange thing Bill Kelly said about "Tex"

"Tex" was actually from New Orleans, and looked remarkably like Lee Harvey Oswald, except for the chin"

 

Wasn't there dispute over the  chin of Oswald  in the BY photos?

 

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10 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

...To all intents and purposes, it is Frazier on the steps - or at least I don't think it has ever been in doubt. So really you are saying Prayer Man can't be Oswald.

(I don't think Prayer Man is Oswald anyway, of course, if a better quality clip was to surface that showed it was unequivocally Oswald then that would be a big game changer)

Alistair,

I disagree that Frazier is on the steps there.   I also keep open the bare possibility that Prayer Man could have been Lee Harvey Oswald.   Photographic experts are still working on this issue.

So, I'm really NOT saying that Prayer Man can't be Oswald -- instead, I'm saying that Frazier isn't on the steps.   If there is PROOF that it is Frazier, then I will deny Prayer Man.  But I haven't seen PROOF that Frazier is on the steps.  It actually is in doubt, in my mind.  Are you saying somebody has PROOF?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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21 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

(1) ...Paul has shots coming from elsewhere too, but does have at least one shot coming from the TSBD as it's the only way the 'conspirators' can set up Oswald as a patsy.

(2) ...Paul has stated that it was Oswald's rifle... the question is who brought it in to the TSBD...

(3) ... Paul, you earlier said that you felt that Oswald brought the rifle in and passed it off to someone else, and I'm sure you mentioned earlier that he brought it in that morning. If that's the case, delving too deeply in to Frazier's testimony may lead away from that, because Frazier says the package was (in his opinion) too small to carry a rifle (pretty sure he didn't actually measure it though so really he is just guestimating anyway)...

Alistair,

(1) Yes, I agree that it is absolutely necessary that at least one shot came from the TSBD, in order to link LHO's rifle to the shooting by actual ballistics.  This shot might have hit Governor Connally.  LHO was not the shooter; he was eating his lunch on the 1st floor at the time, IMHO.

(2)  IMHO, it was definitely LHO's rifle.  When LHO brought it to the TSBD in the morning, and handed over to a friend of Gerry Patrick Hemming (who offered LHO double its price for that), LHO thought he was involved in a separate, ongoing conspiracy -- to assassinate Fidel Castro.   This was LHO's actual mission as a mercenary (like Hemming) working for Guy Banister and his paramilitary and intelligence connections in New Orleans.  LHO was so committed to this project that it never occurred to him that he was about to be betrayed by his most trusted companions on the Radical Right. 

(3)  If this is correct, then Wesley Buell Frazier must be mistaken when he estimated the size of the package brought to his car was only two-feet long.  Frazier had two psychological motivations for underestimating the size of this package: (3.1) Frazier said the shots came from the direction of the railroad tracks, so he was also convinced that LHO was innocent; and (3.2) if he was mistaken about the shots, and LHO really was guilty, this could make Frazier himself seem to be a co-conspirator. 

In fact, some DPD cops were ready to charge Frazier with conspiring with LHO, since Frazier transported the killer and his weapon that morning.  Scapegoats were valuable.  The DPD cops who suspected Frazier were also saying that Ruth and Michael Paine were also co-conspirators; they were wealthy, Eastern intellectuals, in other words, Communists.  For some DPD cops, the JFK murder was a Communist plot.  So Frazier had to be very careful; he had to guess sizes in the interest of his own innocence.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
clarity
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Ray Mitcham wrote:

"Wasn't there dispute over the  chin of Oswald  in the BY photos?

Yes. And the whole "two Oswalds" debate carries similar arguments. One characteristic of the "other" Oswald is an ornery nature. I think the guy in the link I just posted fits that description IIRC. To be sure, one reason I posted this here is the guys ability to make his way down elevator shafts, especially if the power has been shut off, and if by chance the elevator is on the 7th floor of a 7 floor building.

 

Cheers, 

Michael

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10 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

...I never noted that at all! Both of them never testified that they were standing on 'that little old island'! Shelley testified to that, Lovelady didn't! Lovelady said only that both he and Shelley had walked a maximum of 25 steps away from the steps of the TSBD when they 'saw' 'Baker/Truly move towards the door - and that ties in with the clip...

Define 'middle-aged', and define 'young'... why not state how old you think both are?

Instead of just throwing out that you 'recall' Shelley was 'middle-aged' and Lovelady was 'young' why not go and find out how old they both were. It took me like 5 seconds to find out that information... at the time of the assassination of Kennedy;

Shelley: 37 years old
Lovelady: 25 years old

So yeah, Shelley was 'quite a bit older' than Lovelady, but so what... photos of both of them on that day are freely available and does it look like there is a huge difference in look of age?

As something of a comparison, here is a photo of someone who is 25 beside a person who is 37...

Regards

Alistair,

As I tried to show weeks ago, the testimony of Billy Lovelady was lazy and sloppy.  He wasn't really trying to give accurate time and space estimates.  It was perhaps too stressful for him, and he responded with this, "aw, shucks," attitude.  His space and time estimates are way off -- and he didn't care.  "I didn't have a stopwatch," he testified.

So, since he didn't substantially contradict Bill Shelly, who was a more cooperative witness, I prefer to include Billy Lovelady in the more reasonable time and space estimates by Bill Shelley.

The comparison photo you offered, Alistair, was of two athletes in great physical shape.  Lovelady and Shelley were, however, ordinary warehouse workers, and Bill Shelly spent most of his time behind a desk.  It's not a fair comparison.

I need more PROOF if I'm going to agree that these two men walking together outside the TSBD were Lovelady and Shelley.   What else do people have?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

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