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8 minutes ago, Henrik Fendt said:

Aside from the whole Prayer Woman discussion, has there ever been other theories regarding the identity of Prayer Man - except for LHO and Lovelady? I guess we can discard the Lovelady theory as he has been positively placed elsewhere on the stairs right? But who else could it be other than a stranger then, who walked past and wanted to get an elevated view of the motorcade? But one would think that any other person than LHO would have been ID'ed by now? And I can't see how it could have been LHO since no one saw him there..

Henrik, a great comment, and great questions you have asked. :)

Lovelady can be discarded because he is visible at the same time as PM can be seen in the Weigman film... (here's a frame from it)

8fqHMk9.jpg

Could PM be a stranger? Personally, I highly doubt that as it is quite an unusual place for a stranger to be standing, logically it had to be someone that worked there, or at least connected to it imo. Also it's not really the best place to see the motorcade from anyway imo.

As for other possible people... well, from digging about I constructed a list of those that claimed to be on the steps at the time of the shots and tried to cross-reference it with who they said they were with at the time....

Avery Davis - (McCully)
Judith McCully - (Davis)
Ruth Dean - (Reese)
Maddie Reese (Dean)
Pauline Sanders - (Stanton)
Sarah Stanton - (Shelley, Sanders, Lovelady)
Carl Jones - (lovelady)
Roy Lewis
Frazier - (Shelley, Lovelady, Stanton)
Lovelady - (Shelley, Stanton)
Molina - (Frazier, Stanton)
Williams  - (Sanders)

(note that the couch/darnell clip above was approx 30 seconds after the shots, and the wiegmann clip was before that, but still after the shots) between the weigman clip and the couch/darnell clip people could have moved - example Carl Jones can be seen in the wiegmann frame 'leaning' against the wall at the bottom left (as we look at it) of the steps, and it is him (imo) that can be seen in the couch/darnell clip moving up to and standing at the traffic lights.

I think for varying reasons everyone on that list has been discounted as being PM. (If PM was a man then it rules out the females, he looks white so that rules out Jones and Lewis, can't be Lovelady, as noted above, Shelley, Molina and Williams were dressed differently)

There is much pointing to it being Oswald, but as you mentioned none of the others admitted to seeing him there, indeed none of them admitted to seeing any 'stranger' there either... could they all just not have seen whoever it was there? Could it have been Oswald and the rest are keeping schtum about it? Or could it actually be one of the people listed above? Or could it be someone else entirely?

There are those that are convinced that it is Oswald (and there is much pointing to that), there are others who are not convinced. Personally, unless a better clip turns up that is genuine showing who it actually is, I don't think it will be totally solved.

Regards

P.S. I did at one point have a really wild guess at who PM might have been; an ex-employee whose brother still worked at the building and he turned up to meet with his brother but unbenkownst to him his brother wasn't at work that day. lol It was a wild thought that I never delved in to really. Mostly because no one mentioned him being there. lol

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Henrik, a great comment, and great questions you have asked. :)

Lovelady can be discarded because he is visible at the same time as PM can be seen in the Weigman film... (here's a frame from it)

8fqHMk9.jpg

Could PM be a stranger? Personally, I highly doubt that as it is quite an unusual place for a stranger to be standing, logically it had to be someone that worked there, or at least connected to it imo. Also it's not really the best place to see the motorcade from anyway imo.

As for other possible people... well, from digging about I constructed a list of those that claimed to be on the steps at the time of the shots and tried to cross-reference it with who they said they were with at the time....

Avery Davis - (McCully)
Judith McCully - (Davis)
Ruth Dean - (Reese)
Maddie Reese (Dean)
Pauline Sanders - (Stanton)
Sarah Stanton - (Shelley, Sanders, Lovelady)
Carl Jones - (lovelady)
Roy Lewis
Frazier - (Shelley, Lovelady, Stanton)
Lovelady - (Shelley, Stanton)
Molina - (Frazier, Stanton)
Williams  - (Sanders)

(note that the couch/darnell clip above was approx 30 seconds after the shots, and the wiegmann clip was before that, but still after the shots) between the weigman clip and the couch/darnell clip people could have moved - example Carl Jones can be seen in the wiegmann frame 'leaning' against the wall at the bottom left (as we look at it) of the steps, and it is him (imo) that can be seen in the couch/darnell clip moving up to and standing at the traffic lights.

I think for varying reasons everyone on that list has been discounted as being PM. (If PM was a man then it rules out the females, he looks white so that rules out Jones and Lewis, can't be Lovelady, as noted above, Shelley, Molina and Williams were dressed differently)

There is much pointing to it being Oswald, but as you mentioned none of the others admitted to seeing him there, indeed none of them admitted to seeing any 'stranger' there either... could they all just not have seen whoever it was there? Could it have been Oswald and the rest are keeping schtum about it? Or could it actually be one of the people listed above? Or could it be someone else entirely?

There are those that are convinced that it is Oswald (and there is much pointing to that), there are others who are not convinced. Personally, unless a better clip turns up that is genuine showing who it actually is, I don't think it will be totally solved.

Regards

P.S. I did at one point have a really wild guess at who PM might have been; an ex-employee whose brother still worked at the building and he turned up to meet with his brother but unbenkownst to him his brother wasn't at work that day. lol It was a wild thought that I never delved in to really. Mostly because no one mentioned him being there. lol

 

 

Thank you very much for your detailed reply Alistair, much appreciated. The reason I joined this forum is because I feel (like many of us I'm sure) that my mind won't come to rest until the JFK murder is totally solved - will it ever be, or has it already been? But now I feel my mind won't come to rest until I know who Prayer Man is, so I guess that would have to be step number 1 on my way to rest my mind :) 

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7 minutes ago, Henrik Fendt said:

Thank you very much for your detailed reply Alistair, much appreciated. The reason I joined this forum is because I feel (like many of us I'm sure) that my mind won't come to rest until the JFK murder is totally solved - will it ever be, or has it already been? But now I feel my mind won't come to rest until I know who Prayer Man is, so I guess that would have to be step number 1 on my way to rest my mind :) 

May I suggest, Hendrik, that the focus on LHO is not a very productive endeavor. LHO was meant to be and always has been a distraction. It makes perfect sense that proving that LHO didn't or could not have done it would be huge milestone, but I don't think that really leads to who did do it. If, for example, Frazier came out and said that PM is Oswald, then everyone would need to shift gears and turn to the next question. You don't need to exonerate LHO before you shift those gears and turn. Right now, my focus is on JR and his host of characters and what they were doing between between 7AM on 11-22 and 8PM on 11-23. It looks like fertile ground to me. Reading the WC testimonies is a good place to look. IMHO

Cheers, 

Michael

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5 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

May I suggest, Hendrik, that the focus on LHO is not a very productive endeavor. LHO was meant to be and always has been a distraction. It makes perfect sense that proving that LHO didn't or could not have done it would be huge milestone, but I don't think that really leads to who did do it. If, for example, Frazier came out and said that PM is Oswald, then everyone would need to shift gears and turn to the next question. You don't need to exonerate LHO before you shift those gears and turn. Right now, my focus is on JR and his host of characters and what they were doing between between 7AM on 11-22 and 8PM on 11-23. It looks like fertile ground to me. Reading the WC testimonies is a good place to look. IMHO

Cheers, 

Michael

Thanks Michael, I think you make a good point. I do think LHO is a very interesting person, and I'm still intrigued by who PM could be. But I do agree that the entire answer to the mystery surrounding the assassination should be found many levels higher than LHO.

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I disagree with your comment,"It makes perfect sense that proving that LHO didn't or could not have done it would be huge milestone, but I don't think that really leads to who did do it", Michael, for one reason.We don't have to prove who did it, We just have to prove it was a conspiracy.Once that is proved then we can move on the who was responsible.

(IMO we have already shown-but not proven- that it was a conspiracy)

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14 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

This is what A.J. Weberman and Bud Fensterwald published in NODULE 15, back in the late 1970's.

What makes it plausible is the book by Jeff Caufield, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: the Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015).

In other words, LHO was a Fake Leftist -- pretending to be an officer of the FPCC in New Orleans at 544 Camp Street.  LHO was a secret member of the Radical Right -- trying hard to get accepted into the CIA.  He worked with various mercenaries there in New Orleans, along with Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall, Larry Howard, Roscoe White and various members of Interpen, and several Cuban Expatriate mercenaries.

Their group also included many mercenaries (not CIA Agents) and many Fake CIA Agents, including Frank Sturgis, David Ferrie, Jack S. Martin, and Fred Crisman (cf. Joan Mellen, 2005).  The likelihood seems high to me that these Fake CIA Agents were promsing LHO that he could get a steady job in the CIA if he played his cards right.

So, in my reading, LHO was very cozy with Guy Banister and Gerry Patrick Hemming.  In that context, as a CIA-wannabe, LHO would be naive enough to do exactly what A.J. Weberman reported in NODULE 15 (ca. 1975), namely, bring his Mannlicher Carcano rifle to the TSBD for a friend of Gerry Patrick Hemming -- his trusted ally.

Naive -- but not impossible.  (Besides that, $25 in 1963 was like $250 today, and LHO had no apartment for his wife and two babies.  So, the motivation was there.)

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

I have wondered for a long time if Oswald's entire role in the plot was to deliver the rifle to the TSBD and nothing else (in his own mind at least)? IMO that would explain the brown package (if we assume that Frazier is wrong about the size) and it would also explain why Oswald could be another place in the building at the same time as the shooting.

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19 minutes ago, Henrik Fendt said:

I have wondered for a long time if Oswald's entire role in the plot was to deliver the rifle to the TSBD and nothing else (in his own mind at least)? IMO that would explain the brown package (if we assume that Frazier is wrong about the size) and it would also explain why Oswald could be another place in the building at the same time as the shooting.

I find it difficult to believe that a conspiracy of this magnitude would revolve around LHO changing his Thursday routine to get home and return to the TSBD on Friday with a rifle sitting on the back seat of WBF's car, and then walking into work, with WBF, with the rifle under his arm. 

Edited by Michael Clark
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1 hour ago, Henrik Fendt said:

Thank you very much for your detailed reply Alistair, much appreciated. The reason I joined this forum is because I feel (like many of us I'm sure) that my mind won't come to rest until the JFK murder is totally solved - will it ever be, or has it already been? But now I feel my mind won't come to rest until I know who Prayer Man is, so I guess that would have to be step number 1 on my way to rest my mind :) 

Statistically, it probably has been solved (not totally solved of course. ;) ) no doubt one of the theories on it that has been put forward is probably the correct one. There are so many theories put forward... Not sure if your mind will ever be at rest, Henrik; it's the nature of the beast. If you found out for sure who Prayer Man was, either way, it doesn't solve much about the case, just moves it on to the next step - which, as Michael said, can be looked at without proving who PM was...

It's a fascinating case.

 

53 minutes ago, Henrik Fendt said:

I have wondered for a long time if Oswald's entire role in the plot was to deliver the rifle to the TSBD and nothing else (in his own mind at least)? IMO that would explain the brown package (if we assume that Frazier is wrong about the size) and it would also explain why Oswald could be another place in the building at the same time as the shooting.

Yep, good point.

If Oswald was being set up as the 'patsy' they couldn't allow Oswald to be in a noticable place outside at the time or their set up is blown, they would need to keep him somewhere secluded, unless he was going along with the set up of course, or if he didn't know he was being set up but realised too late would he not have gone more public than 'hiding' in the PM position. If Oswald didn't 'deliver' the rifle, what was in his package and what happened to it and how did his rifle get there, if indeed it was his rifle. If he was being set up as the 6th floor shooter why have shots elsewhere too - to complete the job yet run the risk of discovery. If he was being set up why does no one mention a stranger in the building, are they keeping quiet, or was it someone else who worked there. How did they get out the building unseen before it was blocked off.

Question, to question, to question, to question - it never ends. lol

 

1 hour ago, Henrik Fendt said:

... But I do agree that the entire answer to the mystery surrounding the assassination should be found many levels higher than LHO.

Should be. ;) Probably is. ;) Not necessarily so...

Ray made a great point when he said;

1 hour ago, Ray Mitcham said:

(IMO we have already shown-but not proven- that it was a conspiracy)

A great point.

How to define a conspiracy though? For me, personally, anything that proves the WC conclusion even is partly wrong proves a conspiracy.

Regards

P.S. welcome to the forum Henrik. :)

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2 hours ago, Henrik Fendt said:

Aside from the whole Prayer Woman discussion, has there ever been other theories regarding the identity of Prayer Man - except for LHO and Lovelady? I guess we can discard the Lovelady theory as he has been positively placed elsewhere on the stairs right? But who else could it be other than a stranger then, who walked past and wanted to get an elevated view of the motorcade? But one would think that any other person than LHO would have been ID'ed by now? And I can't see how it could have been LHO since no one saw him there..

Henrik,

Do you know what all the employees looked like who worked in and around the TSBD ... including any people who were working on the building?  I would like to see photos of them, but I assume there are not any.  It's also worth noting that in the amount of time before the stairs were ever filmed - there was ample time for anyone on the street to have moved up the steps to get a higher vantage point. Not saying someone did, just saying no one has ruled that out as far as I know.

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31 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Ray made a great point when he said;

A great point.

How to define a conspiracy though? For me, personally, anything that proves the WC conclusion even is partly wrong proves a conspiracy.

Regards

P.S. welcome to the forum Henrik. :)

The HSCA admitted there was a 95% chance there was a conspiracy bases on the evidence.

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3 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Bill, I reckon you are on to something there about being closer to the island side of the street...

You have a keen eye and a good understanding of perspective, what are your thoughts about the synchronized Couch/Darnell clip?

Thanks! There is always evidence in a photo or film if one looks hard enough for it. I knew when some said that Lovelady and Shelley walked straight to the RR Yard and down the middle of the street was not correct. Had that been the case, then they would have decreased in size as they kept moving away. And maybe they started in that direction because they saw Calvery coming from there and crying (?) - but once they passed the running woman, then moved closer to the Island and the camera or else their heads would not have increased in size. (see illustration)  The width between two reference points in the background was used to scale the  two images in width size.

Couch%20film%20capture_1%20copy_zpsbrydy

Not so certain they are exact because they were filmed from two different locations. Not the large door in the background and its relation to the street light pole. Quite a shift takes place. In that sense they are not perfectly in sync with each other.  The President's car has left the Plaza and Baker said he had heard the radio call about getting up into the RR Yard to see what had just occurred up there before running to the TSBD. So an estimate of 20 to 30 seconds is probably correct  while leaving room for a lot of things to have taken place in that amount of time.

 

 

lovelady head.jpg

Edited by Bill Miller
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35 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

I think this is a good place to post this.

Michael, strange thing Bill Kelly said about "Tex"

"Tex" was actually from New Orleans, and looked remarkably like Lee Harvey Oswald, except for the chin"

 

Wasn't there dispute over the  chin of Oswald  in the BY photos?

 

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