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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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15 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

The comparison photo you offered, Alistair, was of two athletes in great physical shape.  Lovelady and Shelley were, however, ordinary warehouse workers, and Bill Shelly spent most of his time behind a desk.  It's not a fair comparison.

 

Just to say that it wasn't for a comparison in fitness, but for a comparison of age only. Inasmuch as there was a pic of someone who was 37 and someone who was 25 at the time - to show that with an age difference of 12 years it is no biggy. There are plenty of pics of both Shelley and Lovelady out there that can be looked at to show that their 12 year age gap isn't that noticeable... but really my point was that Shelley was 37 at the time (hardly 'middle-aged') and Lovelady was 25 (hardly young) - a relative age gap sure, but not that big a gap really. ;)

I will respond to some other points later on, things to do in the meantime. ;)

Regards

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3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

I disagree that Frazier is on the steps there.   I also keep open the bare possibility that Prayer Man could have been Lee Harvey Oswald.   Photographic experts are still working on this issue.

So, I'm really NOT saying that Prayer Man can't be Oswald -- instead, I'm saying that Frazier isn't on the steps.   If there is PROOF that it is Frazier, then I will deny Prayer Man.  But I haven't seen PROOF that Frazier is on the steps.  It actually is in doubt, in my mind.  Are you saying somebody has PROOF?

 

Define proof! lol

Where did Frazier testify he was at the time of the shots?, and how long did he say he stayed on the steps?,. and is there anyone on the steps that resemble him in any way?

VVzSbvJ.jpg

(As I said earlier, I haven't seen anyone claim that that isn't Frazier.) It's a tough one though - short of having a time machine and going back and seeing it with our own eyes, I don't know if it's possible to have 'absolute' proof'.

3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

(2)  It was definitely LHO's rifle.  When LHO brought it to the TSBD in the morning, and handed over to a friend of Gerry Patrick Hemming (who offered LHO double its price for that), LHO thought he was involved in a separate, ongoing conspiracy -- to assassinate Fidel Castro.   This was LHO's actual mission as a mercenary (like Hemming) working for Guy Banister and his paramilitary and intelligence connections in New Orleans.  LHO was so committed to this project that it never occurred to him that he was about to be betrayed by his most trusted companions on the Radical Right. 
 

With this, and with other theories about Oswald being 'set up', one question I always find myself asking is how did they make sure Oswald wasn't seen in a position that exposed the set up, both in terms of photos and witnesses. And how indeed did, whoever the shooter actually was, not get noticed by witnesses in the building (unless perhaps it was another employee ;) ). Just thoughts I have on it...

 

3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

(3)  If this is correct, then Wesley Buell Frazier must be mistaken when he estimated the size of the package brought to his car was only two-feet long.  Frazier had two psychological motivations for underestimating the size of this package: (1) Frazier said the shots came from the direction of the railroad tracks, so he was also convinced that LHO was innocent; and (2) if he was mistaken about the shots, and LHO really was guilty, this could make Frazier himself in a co-conspirator.  In fact, some DPD cops were ready to charge Frazier with conspiring with LHO, since Frazier transported the killer and his weapon that morning.  Scapegoats were valuable.  The DPD cops who suspected Frazier were also saying that Ruth and Michael Paine were also co-conspirators; they were wealthy, Eastern intellectuals, in other words, Communists.  For some DPD cops, the JFK murder was a Communist plot.  So Frazier had to be very careful; he had to guess sizes in the direction of his own innocence.

 

Plausible options.

3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

As I tried to show weeks ago, the testimony of Billy Lovelady was lazy and sloppy.  He wasn't really trying to give accurate time and space estimates.  It was perhaps too stressful for him, and he responded with this, "aw, shucks," attitude.  His space and time estimates are way off -- and he didn't care.  "I didn't have a stopwatch," he testified.

So, since he didn't substantially contradict Bill Shelly, who was a more cooperative witness, I prefer to include Billy Lovelady in the more reasonable time and space estimates by Bill Shelley.

I'm not quite following you here Paul, sorry. I remember your bit about Lovelady's testimony being lazy and sloppy, I think we came to something of an agreement on that. You have noted above that Lovelady's space and time estimates are way off. And you have noted above that Shelley's estimates of time and space are more reasonable. But Shelley and Lovelady were in (relative) agreeance on time of when they left the steps (Lovelady said 3 minutes, Shelley 3-4 minutes). I'm just not quite following you when say that Lovelady's time estimates are way off, but Shelley's time estimates are reasonable when fundamentally they said the same time.

3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

I need more PROOF if I'm going to agree that these two men walking together outside the TSBD were Lovelady and Shelley.   What else do people have?

Did you look at the link I provided to an article written on the Prayer Man website? Here is the link again

Regards

P.S. Some people think it is Shelley/Lovelady and others think it isn't them. And both sides have put forward their sides. Has it been conclusively proven one way or another? That there are some people who think it is and some that think it isn't then no it's not been proven conclusively. Alas

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4 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

The HSCA admitted there was a 95% chance there was a conspiracy bases on the evidence.

I might be misremembering here, but were the HSCA not on the verge of agreeing with the WC about Oswald being the lone shooter and there not being a conspiracy until they were, for want of a better word, 'swayed' by the acoustics analysis and that's what led to their statement of there being a conspiracy. And did they not also say that the acoustics analysis was the only 'evidence' that pointed to there being a conspiracy... idk.

4 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Thanks! There is always evidence in a photo or film if one looks hard enough for it. I knew when some said that Lovelady and Shelley walked straight to the RR Yard and down the middle of the street was not correct. Had that been the case, then they would have decreased in size as they kept moving away. And maybe they started in that direction because they saw Calvery coming from there and crying (?) - but once they passed the running woman, then moved closer to the Island and the camera or else their heads would not have increased in size. (see illustration)  The width between two reference points in the background was used to scale the  two images in width size.

Couch%20film%20capture_1%20copy_zpsbrydy

Not so certain they are exact because they were filmed from two different locations. Not the large door in the background and its relation to the street light pole. Quite a shift takes place. In that sense they are not perfectly in sync with each other.  The President's car has left the Plaza and Baker said he had heard the radio call about getting up into the RR Yard to see what had just occurred up there before running to the TSBD. So an estimate of 20 to 30 seconds is probably correct  while leaving room for a lot of things to have taken place in that amount of time.

 

Yeah I reckon that estimate is probably correct. Earlier on in the thread Chris Davidson put a good timeline together of approx. 30 seconds. I'm happy with that.

As you said it leaves room for a lot of things to have taken place in that amount of time. ;)

*It's funnny how even though I had seen the clip many times I hadn't noticed a few things before. One such thing was the guy who runs up to the traffic lights (I presume that's Carl Jones), I had probably noticed it before but it hadn't clicked as to who he was. lol

Another thing from the Couch/Darnell sync that I noticed is when the Couch part gets furthest left (as we see it) and we can see down the road. Is that Haygood arriving at the grass or just someone running across towards it? I'm not sure. Thoughts?

Regards

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8 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

8fqHMk9.jpg

 

(note that the couch/darnell clip [not shown here] was approx 30 seconds after the shots, and the wiegmann clip [shown here] was before that, but still after the shots)

Alistair,

Are you sure that the above frame occurred after the shooting? Do you have any estimate as to how long after the shooting?

I'm trying to determine when Prayer Man was first seen out front.

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10 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Jack Ruby

Michael,

Have you read Seth Kantor's book, Who Was Jack Ruby? (1985)

iMHO, this is the best book on the topic.  Sent was a professional writer and had known Jack Ruby for many years in Dallas.

For Seth Kantor, Jack Ruby was a stooge for the Dallas cops.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo 

Edited by Paul Trejo
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11 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

... but really my point was that Shelley was 37 at the time (hardly 'middle-aged') and Lovelady was 25 (hardly young) - a relative age gap sure, but not that big a gap really. ;)

Regards

Alistair,

Age is so relative.  Only recent photos are helpful 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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7 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Define proof!  Lol

(As I said earlier, I haven't seen anyone claim that that isn't Frazier.) It's a tough one though - short of having a time machine and going back and seeing it with our own eyes, I don't know if it's possible to have 'absolute' proof'

Regards 

Alistair,

Of course I don't mean absolute proof.

Just something a little more convincing.

If the checkered shirt worn by the short guy matches Lovelady's shirt, then Prayer Man is in doubt again.   

Going by that link you sent. Prayer Man seems too fat now.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Edited by Paul Trejo
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51 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

Have you read Seth Kantor's book, Who Was Jack Ruby? (1985)

iMHO, this is the best book on the topic.

For Seth, Jack Ruby was a stooge for the Dallas cops.

Regards,

--Paul 

No, but thank you Paul. I don't think I'll have much time for anything other than original sources at this point. Also, reading books will only contaminate my information as I gather it from the sources. I can always contaminate it later. 

What is amusing is that I am, involuntarily, developing a stage-play in my head. It's quite entertaining. It lends itself to a partial musical-angle as well. There is nothing like creative ardor that flows without having to force it.

 

Cheers, 

Mike

***edit, to be sure, I am reading many articles and, obviously forum posts, so I can't claim that I am just reading original sources.

Edited by Michael Clark
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19 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

The more I watch this slowed version of the two men - they are much closer to the island side of the street than the opposite side from which they came. It also appears that after passing the running woman who turns her head towards them in passing as if saying something ... the men look like they may have headed for the Island once they passed the rear of the car they were next to.

In the still image below ... the two men look too big compared to the car across the street that was parked along the TSBD, but they do match more in size to the car parked near the tree on the Island.

Bill,

It's a very interesting point -- but I'm uncertain of the claim -- the two men seem to be very close to the TSBD wall, in my interpretation.  Also, they don't tower over the cars as those other men, who are closer to the camera, who are clearly walking on the "little old island."

The average person is at least one foot taller than the average car.  Lovelady was average height, while Shelly was taller than average. 

It's an interesting point, however.  If they really are walking on the Island, then several claims can be made:

1.  Both Shelley and Lovelady were mistaken when they estimated they waited a full three minutes for Gloria Calvary to run up frantically with the bad news about JFK.  They probaby waited 15 seconds -- which seemed like a longer time because of the screaming and falling and dashing of the crowd.

2.  Both men started toward the "little old island" within 30 seconds.

3.  This matches the crucial testimony of Office Marrion Baker -- which was confirmed by actual stopwatch tests, as well as by TSBD Superintendent Roy Truly.  They agree that they started up the TSBD steps about 30 seconds after the JFK shooting.

Both Shelly and Lovelady remember seeing Baker and Truly running up the steps, as shown in this film clip which also shows Prayer Man.

It could be Shelley and Lovelady on the "little old island" -- but I need more clues and evidence.  I can't tell by bare eyesight and these valuable film clips and photographs.   People are usually taller than cars -- just about the height we see in the photograph, IMHO.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

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15 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

P.S. Woah, I just noticed something about that clip that astonished me. The time of that clip is said to be no more than 30 seconds after the shots, is that defintely accurate?

Alistair,

I myself fully accept a 30-second timing of Officer Marrion Baker running up the steps of the TSBD.  I think that is one of the most solid facts that we have from the WC testimony.  Baker and Truly used stop-watches to time their memories of their actions after the JFK shots -- and they agreed -- it was about 30 seconds for Baker to run up the steps, and Truly to follow him.

It also makes sense to me -- Baker said he thought the shots came from the roof of the TSBD, and so he immediately sped his motorcycle from Main and Houston and parked in front of the TSBD and trotted up the steps (as we see in the film).   That would take no more than 30 seconds, by my conservative estimation.  

Baker and Truly would have passed Prayer Man if this is true.  Neither witness remembered seeing LHO on the steps of the TSBD at that point -- so that casts another big doubt upon Prayer Man being LHO, in my opinion.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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13 hours ago, Henrik Fendt said:

I have wondered for a long time if Oswald's entire role in the plot was to deliver the rifle to the TSBD and nothing else (in his own mind at least)? IMO that would explain the brown package (if we assume that Frazier is wrong about the size) and it would also explain why Oswald could be another place in the building at the same time as the shooting.

Henrik,

Although I disagree with A.J. Weberman's conclusions and with his CIA-did-it CT in his book, Coup d'Etat in America (1992) , he brings some fantastic evidence forward that nobody else ever saw before him.

For example, Weberman interviewed Gerry Patrick Hemming more deeply and profoundly than any other interviewer.   Granted that Hemming was deliberately cryptic, and refused to give straight answers most of the time (not unlike Richard Case Nagell), Hemming later joined this very FORUM in the early part of this century, and explained why he could never tell everything he knew -- he would be killed by people who had nothing to do with the JFK assassination -- but had only donated big money to this or that Radical Right group, and they were afraid that any investigation might lead back to them; and so they hired hit men just in case anybody talked about anything that just might lead back to them.

Anyway -- one of the things that Weberman reported was that Gerry Patrick Hemming told him personally -- that on 11/21/1963, he, Hemming, called LHO from Miami to offer him double the price of his Manlicher-Carcano rifle if he would bring it to the TSBD the next morning.

So -- if Weberman's reporting is accurate -- and if Gerry Patrick Hemming is telling the truth for a change -- then your statement becomes TRUE.  That is, LHO's "entire role in the plot was to deliver the rifle to the TSBD and nothing else."

That's exactly what I think, too.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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13 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Conspiracy is written all over every aspect of the assassination and the cover-up, IMO

Yes, Michael -- except that the assassination was one conspiracy, and the cover-up was a completely different conspiracy, with different players and different purposes.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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11 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Yes, Michael -- except that the assassination was one conspiracy, and the cover-up was a completely different conspiracy, with different players and different purposes.

Regards,
--Paul Tr

i already said that. .... no "Yes, Michael -- except......"

Edited by Michael Clark
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