Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Paul Trejo]

7 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

 Did you look at the link I provided to an article written on the Prayer Man website? Here is the link again

Regards

P.S. Some people think it is Shelley/Lovelady and others think it isn't them. And both sides have put forward their sides. ...then no it's not been proven conclusively. Alas

Alistair,

I did look at that link you provided.  Very interesting.   IMHO, the most important factor is that the shorter man is wearing a checkered shirt, very much like the shirt that Billy Lovelady was wearing.

A second important factor is that Bill Shelly was a much taller man -- and this shows clearly in the film clips provided. 

The timing is also fairly close; Truly and Baker are now behind them.  If they really are on the "little old island" as Bill suggests, then it was only a matter of seconds after this film clip that they both looked behind to look at the TSBD front steps one last time, to seek Baker and Truly going inside.

It really could be Shelley and Lovelady.  Then of course, the Prayer Man LHO CT just became weaker.   But it's still uncertain.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

[Paul Trejo]

7 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

I might be mis-remembering here, but were the HSCA not on the verge of agreeing with the WC about Oswald being the lone shooter and there not being a conspiracy until they were, for want of a better word, 'swayed' by the acoustics analysis and that's what led to their statement of there being a conspiracy. And did they not also say that the acoustics analysis was the only 'evidence' that pointed to there being a conspiracy... 

Regards

Alistair,

The problem with the HSCA is that they worked in 1978, during the middle of the Cold War, when the ban on releasing JFK documents established by Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren in 1964 was still in full effect.   This ban had the blessings of J. Edgar Hoover, Allen Dulles and LBJ himself.  It had Presidential backing.  NOBODY COULD CRACK IT.

So, the HCSA really operated with one hand tied behind its back -- and it lost the fight badly.

Also, the HSCA was undermined by Professor Blakey, who pursued his Mafia-did-it CT to a comedic extreme -- and he later backed away from it.  They didn't even bother to recall General Edwin Walker -- and they didn't pursue a Dallas plot led by Dallas Police and Deputies.   It was a lot of wasted time, if not for Gaeton Fonzi and his brilliant interviews of Silvio Odio.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

[Sandy Larsen]

13 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

A second important factor is that Bill Shelly was a much taller man -- and this shows clearly in the film clips provided.

Paul,

What makes you think Bill Shelley was much taller than Billy Lovelady?

(BTW, my understanding is that Bill Lovelady was 5' 8" tall. Don't know about Bill Shelley.)

 

[Paul Trejo]

5 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

No, but thank you Paul. I don't think I'll have much time for anything other than original sources at this point. Also, reading books will only contaminate my information as I gather it from the sources. I can always contaminate it later. 

Cheers, 

 Mike 

Mike, I regards Seth Kantor's book on Jack Ruby to be a completely original source, from a serious person, Seth Kantor, a writer for the Dallas Times Herald for many years in Dallas, and knew lots of Dallas people -- and knew Jack Ruby for many years.

Seth had a good vantage point of watching Jack Ruby social climbing in Dallas society -- and failing because a pimp can only rise so far.

Jack Ruby was indebted to the Dallas Police and would do favors for them all the time -- a little vice?  I little information?  What do you want?

I think Seth gives us the most original portrait of Jack Ruby ever written. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo
 

[Alistair Briggs]

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Alistair,

Are you sure that the above frame occurred after the shooting? Do you have any estimate as to how long after the shooting?

I'm trying to determine when Prayer Man was first seen out front.

To be totally honest I'm not 100% sure if a timing, but it might be close. Extremely close. I think, that when Weigman first starts filming the shots hadn't finished and he pans forward and then back and that PM frame comes from when he pans back and it's just after the shots. Honestly though I'm not 100% sure. Could be right at the time of the shots actually.

I remember reading (I think way earlier in this thread) talk about the possibility of PM taking photos, from the position he was in, if he was indeed there taking photos then perhaps he was there before the motorcade arrived. Even if he wasn't taking photos, could still have been there before the motorcade. I'm not sure though.

Good avenue to go down, Sandy, hope you are able to determine it.

[Alistair Briggs]

7 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Age is so relative.  Only recent photos are helpful

There are photos of Shelley and Lovelady on that day that will show more clearly what each looked like on the day.

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Of course I don't mean absolute proof.

Just something a little more convincing.

If the checkered shirt worn by the short guy matches Lovelady's shirt, then Prayer Man is in doubt again.   

Going by that link you sent. Prayer Man seems too fat now.

 

Until it's nailed down for sure, I do reckon that it comes down to a 'judgement call' when it comes to 'evidence'. I've seen images of PM that are more clear than others and where PM looks (very slightly) different.

Not really sure what you are meaning when you say that if the checkered shirt matches Lovelady's shirt, then Prayer Man is in doubt again?

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

I myself fully accept a 30-second timing of Officer Marrion Baker running up the steps of the TSBD.  I think that is one of the most solid facts that we have from the WC testimony.  Baker and Truly used stop-watches to time their memories of their actions after the JFK shots -- and they agreed -- it was about 30 seconds for Baker to run up the steps, and Truly to follow him.

It also makes sense to me -- Baker said he thought the shots came from the roof of the TSBD, and so he immediately sped his motorcycle from Main and Houston and parked in front of the TSBD and trotted up the steps (as we see in the film).   That would take no more than 30 seconds, by my conservative estimation.  

Baker and Truly would have passed Prayer Man if this is true.  Neither witness remembered seeing LHO on the steps of the TSBD at that point -- so that casts another big doubt upon Prayer Man being LHO, in my opinion.

As you know, there are plenty of people who disagree with that (30 seconds - Baker ran up the steps of the TSBD) being a solid fact.

Anyroads,

I'm not sure that Baker would have passed PM to be honest... well, not directly passed in front of him. From looking at photos of the entrance to the TSBD how many doors are there, and how does it open. Looks to me like there was only one door and it opened outwards to the left (as we look at it). The way I look at it then is that Baker could have run up the right hand side of the steps because he saw the way the door opened made it the easier way in to the building (even though that side was the busiest in terms of people - easier in terms of where the door is). Argh I did come across a photo once that would be helpful in trying to explain this but can't locate it just now... I will try and find it later on, or draw a quick sketch to show what I'm meaning... don't let me forget to do that. I can envisage a way that Baker ran in to the TSBD and wouldn't have noticed anyone in the PM position... or even if he did notice someone in that position, the 'speed' he was going at, and what his 'focus' was on it might, and I repeat might, just not have registered...

Either way, personally, I don't think it necessarily predicates it being Oswald.

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

I did look at that link you provided.  Very interesting.   IMHO, the most important factor is that the shorter man is wearing a checkered shirt, very much like the shirt that Billy Lovelady was wearing.

A second important factor is that Bill Shelly was a much taller man -- and this shows clearly in the film clips provided. 

The timing is also fairly close; Truly and Baker are now behind them.  If they really are on the "little old island" as Bill suggests, then it was only a matter of seconds after this film clip that they both looked behind to look at the TSBD front steps one last time, to seek Baker and Truly going inside.

It really could be Shelley and Lovelady.  Then of course, the Prayer Man LHO CT just became weaker.   But it's still uncertain.

I'm not sure about Shelley being a 'much taller man' to be honest. I have seen it mentioned that he was shorter than Lovelady. I don't know to be honest, but even if it was quite close in terms of height, there could be any number of reasons why in a clip someone could look taller than another person even when in 'real life' they are shorter (I mean, if they were quite close in height to start with of course.)

Looking at the Couch/Darnell sync in full and keeping an eye on those 2 people walking, well, it's open to interpretation I reckon. As noted previously, some people are sure it's Shelley/Lovelady and others are sure it isn't. Until it's nailed down for sure it is something of a 'judgement call' on the viewer... (I don't think it will be totally nailed down, either way, until a 'clearer' clip surfaces) - we can only work just now with what we have. And whilst I can have an opinion on it, I realise that others have an opposite opinion on it, and that's ok with me.

Again I'm not really understanding you when you say that if it was Shelley and Lovelady that the PM = Oswald theory becomes weaker. Hopefully with further explanation from you I will understand it.?

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

The problem with the HSCA is that they worked in 1978, during the middle of the Cold War, when the ban on releasing JFK documents established by Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren in 1964 was still in full effect.   This ban had the blessings of J. Edgar Hoover, Allen Dulles and LBJ himself.  It had Presidential backing.  NOBODY COULD CRACK IT.

So, the HCSA really operated with one hand tied behind its back -- and it lost the fight badly.

Also, the HSCA was undermined by Professor Blakey, who pursued his Mafia-did-it CT to a comedic extreme -- and he later backed away from it.  They didn't even bother to recall General Edwin Walker -- and they didn't pursue a Dallas plot led by Dallas Police and Deputies.   It was a lot of wasted time, if not for Gaeton Fonzi and his brilliant interviews of Silvio Odio.

 

I understand that, and yet, even with operating 'one hand tied behind its back' they still managed to 'fuel the fires' with the audio analysis by stating that meant there was a conspiracy.

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

To be totally honest I'm not 100% sure if a timing, but it might be close. Extremely close. I think, that when Weigman first starts filming the shots hadn't finished and he pans forward and then back and that PM frame comes from when he pans back and it's just after the shots. Honestly though I'm not 100% sure. Could be right at the time of the shots actually.

I remember reading (I think way earlier in this thread) talk about the possibility of PM taking photos, from the position he was in, if he was indeed there taking photos then perhaps he was there before the motorcade arrived. Even if he wasn't taking photos, could still have been there before the motorcade. I'm not sure though.

Good avenue to go down, Sandy, hope you are able to determine it.

I have word from a reliable source that the Weigman frame you showed was taken at a time very close to when Altgens 6 was taken. The poses of most the people on the stairs in the Weigman frame matches those seen in the Altgens 6 photo. It appears to me that only the black fellow on the left side of the stairway changed position (he turned sideways).

So the Weigman frame is very close to the time of the shooting.

The importance of this is that it shows that Prayer Man was out in front during the shooting, or very close to that.

I'm sure the folks at ROKC forum have this fact ingrained in their brains.

Oswald's alibi in one of his interrogations was that he went outside to see what the commotion was about. (Or did he say to check on the commotion. There is a subtle but important difference between the two.) If Prayer Man is Oswald, then by "commotion" Oswald must have been referring to the pre-assassination crowd, not the post-assassination commotion. Because PM was out there before the post-assassination commotion began.

P.S. I guess there is a slim possibility that the "commotion" Oswald referred to was the first gunshot. In which case he ran out there immediately upon hearing it, and settled into his PM position before Weigman  caught him on tape.

[Bill Miller]

5 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Bill,

It's a very interesting point -- but I'm uncertain of the claim -- the two men seem to be very close to the TSBD wall, in my interpretation.  Also, they don't tower over the cars as those other men, who are closer to the camera, who are clearly walking on the "little old island."

The average person is at least one foot taller than the average car.  Lovelady was average height, while Shelly was taller than average. 

It's an interesting point, however.  If they really are walking on the Island, then several claims can be made:

1.  Both Shelley and Lovelady were mistaken when they estimated they waited a full three minutes for Gloria Calvary to run up frantically with the bad news about JFK.  They probaby waited 15 seconds -- which seemed like a longer time because of the screaming and falling and dashing of the crowd.

Somehow that was a false recollection. The first thing them two did was see Calvery coming towards them to say the President had been shot to which Lovelady replied 'are you sure'. Does anyone really believe that Lovelady and Shelley went on a three minute hike after the shooting and remained oblivious to the President being shot until meeting Calvery afterwards - that dog just doesn't hunt and that scenario contradicts what Loverlady first said about having only gone about 15 to 25 steps from the stairs before looking back and seeing Truly about to enter the TSBD. 

2.  Both men started toward the "little old island" within 30 seconds.

The films do not lie

3.  This matches the crucial testimony of Office Marrion Baker -- which was confirmed by actual stopwatch tests, as well as by TSBD Superintendent Roy Truly.  They agree that they started up the TSBD steps about 30 seconds after the JFK shooting.

 

Baker said he dismounted his bike and started his run upon hearing the police radio call to get men up in the RR yard to see what happened up there.

It could be Shelley and Lovelady on the "little old island" -- but I need more clues and evidence.  I can't tell by bare eyesight and these valuable film clips and photographs.   People are usually taller than cars -- just about the height we see in the photograph, IMHO.

It's their increase in size that shows they were moving closer to the camera. To do that they would have to of gone behind the parked car and walked towards the Island. You may recall that when one of them was asked if they went straight across the street after leaving the stairs - the reply was 'off more to the right'. What is seen on the Patrolman Baker running films tend to support the two men going off to the right - meeting the running woman (Calvery) - and then continuing to walk past the parked car and then turned towards the Island .... which would explain the sudden increase in Lovelady's head. Had Lovelady just kept walking away from the camera, then he would continue getting smaller in the cameras eye.

 

 

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎1‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 1:43 AM, Alistair Briggs said:

On ‎1‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 3:54 PM, Alistair Briggs said:

here's the Synchronized Couch - Darnell GIF from which the above clips were taken:

 

 

Alistair,

If (and only if) these two men are Shelly and Lovelady (and the checkered shirt of Lovelady seems to be a good match) then it appears to me that, if Lovelady is 5'8", then Bill Shelly must have been 5'11"..

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 31, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎1‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 1:43 AM, Alistair Briggs said:

...If it is them walking away then they would have seen Prayer Man in the doorway, but if it's not them walking away then they would still be on the steps seeing Prayer Man.

Alistair,

I agree with this.  Both these men worked on a daily basis with LHO, and so they would have noticed him at the TSBD front steps if he was there. 

Also -- while Officer Baker was obsessed with running up to the TSBD roof as fast as possible -- and so might not have registered Prayer Man on his rush upstairs -- the same cannot be true of Roy Truly, who hired LHO and knew very well what he looked like.  

The fact that Lovelady, Shelly, Truly and even Frazier could not place LHO at the TSBD steps when they were outside looking at the JFK motorcade -- is strong evidence against Prayer Man being LHO, as I see it.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

...Oswald's alibi in one of his interrogations was that he went outside to see what the commotion was about. (Or did he say to check on the commotion. There is a subtle but important difference between the two.) If Prayer Man is Oswald, then by "commotion" Oswald must have been referring to the pre-assassination crowd, not the post-assassination commotion. Because PM was out there before the post-assassination commotion began...

Sandy,

Just so we don't forget -- the only way to speak of "Oswald's alibi" is to accept the WC testimony of Captain Will Fritz.  Not everybody accepts his make-believe Oswald.  Remember that Fritz only wrote down what Oswald said WEEKS after the event.  Remember also that Oswald was murdered while in the custody of Captain Will Fritz.  A grain of salt is a good idea when we speak of "Oswald's alibi."

I realize that Captain Will Fritz's testimony -- if accepted at face value -- tends to exonerate Oswald.  However, Frtiz intended to explain that Oswald was a compulsive fabricator.  So, Fritz said that Oswald said that he was outside during the shooting, only to show that Oswald was lying.  This is one of the objections I get from Alistair -- that if Fritz wanted to invent a story, he would have invented a better one.  I think Fritz invented the best one -- a lying Oswald, rather than a silent Oswald.

Again, the testimony of Dallas Postmaster Harry Holmes (who was present at the final Oswald interrogation) claims that Oswald told Fritz and Holmes every detail about his trip to Mexico City.  And people still can't see through this fabrication!

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 4:31 AM, Bill Miller said:

(1)  ...The first thing these two did was see Calvery coming towards them to say the President had been shot to which Lovelady replied 'are you sure'. Does anyone really believe that Lovelady and Shelley went on a three minute hike after the shooting and remained oblivious to the President being shot until meeting Calvery afterwards - that dog just doesn't hunt and that scenario contradicts what Loverlady first said about having only gone about 15 to 25 steps from the stairs before looking back and seeing Truly about to enter the TSBD. 

 (2)  It's their increase in size that shows they were moving closer to the camera. To do that they would have to of gone behind the parked car and walked towards the Island. You may recall that when one of them was asked if they went straight across the street after leaving the stairs - the reply was 'off more to the right'. What is seen on the Patrolman Baker running films tend to support the two men going off to the right - meeting the running woman (Calvery) - and then continuing to walk past the parked car and then turned towards the Island .... which would explain the sudden increase in Lovelady's head. Had Lovelady just kept walking away from the camera, then he would continue getting smaller in the cameras eye.

Bill,

(1)  In my reading, both Shelly and Lovelady stood at the steps of the  TSBD for about 20 seconds, watching the chaos at the Grassy Knoll.  Then, Gloria Cavalry came running up to them, screaming that JFK had just been shot.  They asked, "Are you sure?" and she sobbed, "Yes!"  That's when they decided to join the crowd on the Grassy Knoll. 

They quickly crossed the alleyway to the "little old island" and then looked back to see Baker and Truly enter the TSBD.  Then they joined a DPD cop to wander towards the parking lot behind the picket fence of the Grassy Knoll.  They wandered as far as the railroad tracks, and then wandered back to the TSBD.

They didn't see anything unusual behind the picket fence.  Nobody did -- all anybody saw was lots of DPD cops, looking busy.   Nobody would suspect DPD cops of shooting JFK, would they?

(2) Your perspective of these two men as already on the "little old island" is interesting to me.  I'll look at the film clip again with your ideas in mind.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 1, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Bill Miller]

 

Quote

(2) Your perspective of these two men as already on the "little old island" is interesting to me.  I'll look at the film clip again with your ideas in mind.

Not much to miss, Paul. Look at the size of Lovelady's head against against the white-wall on the tire and then look at the lower image of Lovelady before Baker made his run. As Lovelady neared the sign   ... his head got quite a bit larger. The only way that could have happened is that Lovelady altered his course which made him move closer to the camera. That tells me without question that Lovelady didn't continue on to the RR Yard, but moved towards the tree on the Island.

 

Edited February 2, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Alistair Briggs]

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I have word from a reliable source that the Weigman frame you showed was taken at a time very close to when Altgens 6 was taken. The poses of most the people on the stairs in the Weigman frame matches those seen in the Altgens 6 photo. It appears to me that only the black fellow on the left side of the stairway changed position (he turned sideways).

So the Weigman frame is very close to the time of the shooting.

The importance of this is that it shows that Prayer Man was out in front during the shooting, or very close to that.

I'm sure the folks at ROKC forum have this fact ingrained in their brains.

Oswald's alibi in one of his interrogations was that he went outside to see what the commotion was about. (Or did he say to check on the commotion. There is a subtle but important difference between the two.) If Prayer Man is Oswald, then by "commotion" Oswald must have been referring to the pre-assassination crowd, not the post-assassination commotion. Because PM was out there before the post-assassination commotion began.

P.S. I guess there is a slim possibility that the "commotion" Oswald referred to was the first gunshot. In which case he ran out there immediately upon hearing it, and settled into his PM position before Weigman  caught him on tape.

Yep, all good points Sandy.

About the 'commotion' thing, yeah, I will need to look in to that a bit more, but i'm sure that when Oswald mentions the commotion he also mentions going downstairs to see what the commotion was.

 

 

[Alistair Briggs]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

If (and only if) these two men are Shelly and Lovelady (and the checkered shirt of Lovelady seems to be a good match) then it appears to me that, if Lovelady is 5'8", then Bill Shelly must have been 5'11"..

That might be what it appears to you, but that is just a guestimate. Keep in mind that Lovelady's 5ft8 may not be accurate to start with, and also it isn't the best clip to view in the first place, and when it comes to making a judgement on height remember there could be countless things that can make a difference. One such thing is... well, have you looked at photos of Shelley and Lovelady on that day? Hint: consider their hair.

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

I agree with this.  Both these men worked on a daily basis with LHO, and so they would have noticed him at the TSBD front steps if he was there. 

Also -- while Officer Baker was obsessed with running up to the TSBD roof as fast as possible -- and so might not have registered Prayer Man on his rush upstairs -- the same cannot be true of Roy Truly, who hired LHO and knew very well what he looked like.  

The fact that Lovelady, Shelly, Truly and even Frazier could not place LHO at the TSBD steps when they were outside looking at the JFK motorcade -- is strong evidence against Prayer Man being LHO, as I see it.

Yeah I think it is strong evidence against PM being Oswald.

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Sandy,

Just so we don't forget -- the only way to speak of "Oswald's alibi" is to accept the WC testimony of Captain Will Fritz.  Not everybody accepts his make-believe Oswald.  Remember that Fritz only wrote down what Oswald said WEEKS after the event.  Remember also that Oswald was murdered while in the custody of Captain Will Fritz.  A grain of salt is a good idea when we speak of "Oswald's alibi."

I realize that Captain Will Fritz's testimony -- if accepted at face value -- tends to exonerate Oswald.  However, Frtiz intended to explain that Oswald was a compulsive fabricator.  So, Fritz said that Oswald said that he was outside during the shooting, only to show that Oswald was lying.  This is one of the objections I get from Alistair -- that if Fritz wanted to invent a story, he would have invented a better one.  I think Fritz invented the best one -- a lying Oswald, rather than a silent Oswald.

Just on that subject, one of the biggest pieces of evidence of Oswald having been set up came from Fritz's interrogation of Oswald - Oswald saying the Backyard Photos were faked. Can't have it both ways.

For all the 'annoyance' of Bugliosi putting emotion in to the words, the parts about Fritz's interrogation of Oswald is still a good source.

Regards

P.S. don't let me forget to do that sketch I mentioned earlier.