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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

I realize that Captain Will Fritz's testimony -- if accepted at face value -- tends to exonerate Oswald. 

Hmmm, not sure, if accepted at face value, it tends to exonerate Oswald tbh. With some things yes, but others not so much.

4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

However, Frtiz intended to explain that Oswald was a compulsive fabricator.  So, Fritz said that Oswald said that he was outside during the shooting, only to show that Oswald was lying. 

ARGH If I hear it one more time that "Fritz said that Oswald said that he was outside during the shooting" I'll bloody scream. lol

During the first interrogation Fritz asked Oswald where he was at the time of the shots and Oswalds (claimed) repsone was "I was having lunch about that time on the first floor", not long after, Fritz asked Oswald  why he left the Depositry after the shooting and Oswalds (claimed) response was "I went out front and was standing with Bill Shelley, and after hearing what happened, with all the confusion, I figured there wouldn't be any more work done the rest of the day, so I went home.."

4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

This is one of the objections I get from Alistair -- that if Fritz wanted to invent a story, he would have invented a better one.  I think Fritz invented the best one -- a lying Oswald, rather than a silent Oswald.

There are enough contradictions in what it is claimed Oswald said to point to it being Oswald himself that was being 'tripped up' on his story. If Fritz was making it up he wouldn't put such contradictions in it (as it wouldn't have fitted his purpose), he would have been consistent with it.

Eg, Oswald said (at the time of the shots) he was on the first floor and went up to the 2nd floor to get a coke when he encountered Baker/Truly, at another time Oswald said (at the time of the shots) he  went down to the 2nd floor to get a coke when he encountered Baker/Truly.

Regards

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9 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Not much to miss, Paul. Look at the size of Lovelady's head against against the white-wall on the tire and then look at the lower image of Lovelady before Baker made his run. As Lovelady neared the sign   ... his head got quite a bit larger. The only way that could have happened is that Lovelady altered his course which made him move closer to the camera. That tells me without question that Lovelady didn't continue on to the RR Yard, but moved towards the tree on the Island.

Bill,

Thanks for pointing it out again more emphatically.   The relative size of the head of the Lovelady character, compared with the white-wall tire, makes it obvious that the Lovelady character is already across the alley in front of the TSBD steps -- in other words -- already on that "little old island."

Now -- as for Lovelady's destination -- all you can tell for sure is his destination in the next couple of seconds -- you can't tell where he went afterwards.

I say this because Lovelady was very poor at estimating time -- so when he says he and Shelley went to the railroad tracks -- he doesn't necessarily mean that they went immediately to the railroad tracks.  He more likely means that they eventually went to the railroad tracks.  This would also accord with Bill Shelley's testimony.

Anyway -- your photographic eye seems correct to me now.   The Lovelady and Shelley characters are evidently on that "little old island" at the time of this film clip.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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8 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

(1)  Keep in mind that Lovelady's 5ft8 may not be accurate to start with, and also it isn't the best clip to view in the first place, and when it comes to making a judgement on height remember there could be countless things that can make a difference. One such thing is... well, have you looked at photos of Shelley and Lovelady on that day? Hint: consider their hair. ;)

(2) ...One of the biggest pieces of evidence of Oswald having been set up came from Fritz's interrogation of Oswald - Oswald saying the Backyard Photos were faked. Can't have it both ways. ;)

Regards

P.S. don't let me forget to do that sketch I mentioned earlier.

Alistair,

(1) What I'm saying is that a four-inch difference in height is a big difference.  The two men in the film-clip you shared are very different heights.  They seem to my impromptu eye to be as much as four-inches apart -- a major difference.   So, according to my guess, if Lovelady was 5'8", then Shelley had to be 5'11".   It's a relative size -- not an absolute size.  (And hair would never add more than an inch, anyway.  It's the head stature that is taller in the Shelley character.)

(2) It is my opinion that Fritz did mix into his Fake Dialog of LHO bits of true dialog of LHO, for example, DENIALS.  Can there be any doubt that LHO, when confronted with the Backyard Photographs, would DENY EVERYTHING?   Adding a touch of Truth to a Big Lie makes it look stronger.

I'll share my favorite BYP theory here -- LHO created the BYP at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall -- which was one reason he got fired from there.   This was the same time that LHO created the Fake Alek James Hidell ID cards.  Because LHO used Roscoe White's body-double in those photographs (for plausible deniability), LHO always looked forward to the day when a Policeman would challenge him with the BYP, and he would say, "That's my face pasted onto somebody else's body!  I know a lot about photography and I can prove that!"

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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5 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

...There are enough contradictions in what it is claimed Oswald said to point to it being Oswald himself that was being 'tripped up' on his story. If Fritz was making it up he wouldn't put such contradictions in it (as it wouldn't have fitted his purpose), he would have been consistent with it.

Eg, Oswald said (at the time of the shots) he was on the first floor and went up to the 2nd floor to get a coke when he encountered Baker/Truly, at another time Oswald said (at the time of the shots) he  went down to the 2nd floor to get a coke when he encountered Baker/Truly.

Regards

Alistair,

The reason Captain Will Fritz contradicted himself in his re-telling of the LHO dialog is because Captain Will Fritz was lying as fast as a race car.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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15 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

1.  Both Shelley and Lovelady were mistaken when they estimated they waited a full three minutes for Gloria Calvary to run up frantically with the bad news about JFK.  They probaby waited 15 seconds -- which seemed like a longer time because of the screaming and falling and dashing of the crowd.

Somehow that was a false recollection. The first thing them two did was see Calvery coming towards them to say the President had been shot to which Lovelady replied 'are you sure'. Does anyone really believe that Lovelady and Shelley went on a three minute hike after the shooting and remained oblivious to the President being shot until meeting Calvery afterwards - that dog just doesn't hunt and that scenario contradicts what Loverlady first said about having only gone about 15 to 25 steps from the stairs before looking back and seeing Truly about to enter the TSBD. 


You guys are talking nonsense IMO. (Either that or Shelley lied to the Warren Commission about this for some reason.) Here is Shelley's WC testimony:

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl [Gloria Calvery] that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

There is no freakin' way the man is gonna confuse "3 or 4 minutes" with 15 seconds. He even makes it a point that he knew it took 3 or 4 minutes because it took some time for Gloria Calvery to get there.

Bill says it was a false recollection. Funny thing, though, is that Bill Lovelady recalled it the same way as Shelley.

You guys are doing back-flips to get the testimony to match up with who you think are Shelley and Lovelady walking down Elm Street extension.

It would do you guys good to consider the possibility that those guys are not Shelley and Lovelady.

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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11 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

 

18 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

...Oswald's alibi in one of his interrogations was that he went outside to see what the commotion was about. (Or did he say to check on the commotion. There is a subtle but important difference between the two.) If Prayer Man is Oswald, then by "commotion" Oswald must have been referring to the pre-assassination crowd, not the post-assassination commotion. Because PM was out there before the post-assassination commotion began...

Sandy,

Just so we don't forget -- the only way to speak of "Oswald's alibi" is to accept the WC testimony of Captain Will Fritz.  Not everybody accepts his make-believe Oswald.

Okay. But Fritz wasn't the only one who made a report or testified regarding the interrogations.

Regardless, what reason do we have to think Fritz lied when reporting on the interrogations? I mean, I can see being suspicious if what Fritz reported incriminated Oswald. But if it didn't incriminate, then I see no reason to doubt it.

Remember that Fritz only wrote down what Oswald said WEEKS after the event.

But he wrote it down from notes. And what he wrote can be compared to the other reports for accuracy.

Remember also that Oswald was murdered while in the custody of Captain Will Fritz.  A grain of salt is a good idea when we speak of "Oswald's alibi."

I realize that Captain Will Fritz's testimony -- if accepted at face value -- tends to exonerate Oswald.  However, Frtiz intended to explain that Oswald was a compulsive fabricator.  So, Fritz said that Oswald said that he was outside during the shooting, only to show that Oswald was lying.  This is one of the objections I get from Alistair -- that if Fritz wanted to invent a story, he would have invented a better one.  I think Fritz invented the best one -- a lying Oswald, rather than a silent Oswald.

Again, the testimony of Dallas Postmaster Harry Holmes (who was present at the final Oswald interrogation) claims that Oswald told Fritz and Holmes every detail about his trip to Mexico City.  And people still can't see through this fabrication!

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

 

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10 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Yep, all good points Sandy. :)

About the 'commotion' thing, yeah, I will need to look in to that a bit more, but i'm sure that when Oswald mentions the commotion he also mentions going downstairs to see what the commotion was.

Alistair,

I just checked and it is Harry Holmes who made the comment about the commotion in his WC testimony. And you're right, that Holmes has Oswald going downstairs to check out the commotion.

It's noteworthy that Holmes testified that it was at that time, on the first floor near the front door, that the Baker/Oswald encounter took place.

Since I don't believe the 2nd floor encounter took place, I have a feeling that Harry Holmes got this part of his testimony right. That it was a 1st floor encounter, not a 2nd floor one.

Anyway, if Harry Holmes was right about when Oswald went to check the commotion, then Prayer Man cannot be Oswald. Because PM was outside during the shooting, or immediately after the first shot at the very latest.

Here is Holmes's WC testimony for anybody interested in reading it:

Mr Holmes :

Then he said when all this commotion started, “I just went on downstairs.” And he didn’t say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, “I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about.”

Mr Belin :

Where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?

Mr Holmes :

He said it was in the vestibule.

Mr Belin :

He said it was in the vestibule?

Mr Holmes :

Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.

Mr Belin :

Did he state it was on what floor?

Mr Holmes :

First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

Mr Belin :

Did he say anything about a Coca Cola or anything like that, if you remember?

Mr Holmes :

Seems like he said he was drinking a Coca Cola, standing there by the Coca Cola machine drinking a Coca Cola.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Bill,

Thanks for pointing it out again more emphatically.   The relative size of the head of the Lovelady character, compared with the white-wall tire, makes it obvious that the Lovelady character is already across the alley in front of the TSBD steps -- in other words -- already on that "little old island."

Now -- as for Lovelady's destination -- all you can tell for sure is his destination in the next couple of seconds -- you can't tell where he went afterwards.

I say this because Lovelady was very poor at estimating time -- so when he says he and Shelley went to the railroad tracks -- he doesn't necessarily mean that they went immediately to the railroad tracks.  He more likely means that they eventually went to the railroad tracks.  This would also accord with Bill Shelley's testimony.

Anyway -- your photographic eye seems correct to me now.   The Lovelady and Shelley characters are evidently on that "little old island" at the time of this film clip.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

The larger head certainly demonstrates that Lovelady changed course from where he was when the camera first picks him up. And if you look at Roberdeau's Map ... I  bet you would see how from where Couch or Darnell was located .... that a turn towards the Island once past the parked car would be bringing Lovelady closer to the cameras location. 

It's also worth considering that in times of sudden stress and confusion ... it's human nature to get some of the event mixed up - especially when it came to time and space. The film doesn't forget! So when one of the men corrects Mr. Ball by saying that upon leaving the stairs - they crossed the street more to the right or that they spoke to Gloria Calvery at the Island, then that portion of their recall is coming from it actually happening. At some point one must realize that Shelley and Lovelady may have been telling the truth for the most part.

I  believe that one of the two men said that they hung around the Island for about one minute before walking to the RR Yard.

 

 

Edited by Bill Miller
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6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

(1) What I'm saying is that a four-inch difference in height is a big difference.  The two men in the film-clip you shared are very different heights.  They seem to my impromptu eye to be as much as four-inches apart -- a major difference.   So, according to my guess, if Lovelady was 5'8", then Shelley had to be 5'11".   It's a relative size -- not an absolute size.  (And hair would never add more than an inch, anyway.  It's the head stature that is taller in the Shelley character.)

 

5ft8 to 5ft11 is a difference of 3 inches. ;) The thing is Paul, as you say, you are just guessing. Why not try and do something to put a more accurate guess on to it rather than just to you 'impromptu eye'...

Hair could add more than an inch to a person's apparent height... especially when we are talking about an image that is not the best quality. But it's not only hair that could make a difference... different shoes? camber on the street? one standing on a pavement when the other isn't? close to the camera? (not necessarily suggesting all of them in relation to the clip in question, just in general terms) - the important thing is that the image isn't the best quality...

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

(2) It is my opinion that Fritz did mix into his Fake Dialog of LHO bits of true dialog of LHO, for example, DENIALS.  Can there be any doubt that LHO, when confronted with the Backyard Photographs, would DENY EVERYTHING?   Adding a touch of Truth to a Big Lie makes it look stronger.
 

Yes it can be doubted because fundamentally the Backyard Photos don't harm Oswald. He could easily have said yeah that's me with a rifle, so what, it wasn't my rifle I was just posing, or he could have said, yeah that's me with my rifle but I sold it to someone else, there's plenty of things that Oswald could have said about them being genuine that wouldn't directly implicate him...

But again, Fritz having Oswald claim that the photos were faked help exonerate Oswald, not really a fit for purpose thing for Fritz to do then.

Not sure if you are aware of this or not, Oswald told Fritz he had gone to pick up his pistol, later on Oswald said he had never owned or bought a gun and never owned or bought a rifle, then he admitted he bought the gun, then later on he denied owning a gun then straight after he was confronted with the BYP, and then, later on, Oswald admitted to owning a rifle (in Russia)...

One needs to take in to account everything it is claimed Oswald said. ;)

 

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

I'll share my favorite BYP theory here -- LHO created the BYP at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall -- which was one reason he got fired from there.   This was the same time that LHO created the Fake Alek James Hidell ID cards.  Because LHO used Roscoe White's body-double in those photographs (for plausible deniability), LHO always looked forward to the day when a Policeman would challenge him with the BYP, and he would say, "That's my face pasted onto somebody else's body!  I know a lot about photography and I can prove that!"

Good theory, and plausible. There's a slight issue though.

Here's the (alleged) conversation between Fritz and Oswald about the BYP (nb, there were others in the room at the time too)

Quote

Fritz: "Now, you told me yesterday that you'd never owned a gun,"
Oswald: "That's right, I never owned a gun"
Fritz: "Okay, I want to show you something"
*Show him the BYP (an 8 by 10 inch enlargement)
Fritz: "How do you explain this?"
Oswald: "I am not going to make any comment about that without the advice of an attorney."
Fritz: "Well, is that your face in the picture?"
Oswald:"I won't even admit that"
Fritz: "That's not your face?"
Oswald: "No, that's not even my face. That's a fake. I've been photographed a number of times since I got here - first by the police, and now every time I get dragged through that hallway. Someone has taken my picture and put my face on a different body."
Fritz: "So that is your face?"
Oswald: "Yes, that's my face, but that's not my body. I know all about photography, I've worked with photography a long time. Someone has photographed me and then superimposed a rifle in my hand and a gun in my pocket. That's a picture that someone has made. I've never seen that picture before in my life"
Fritz: "We found this photo in Mrs Paine's garage, among your effects"
Oswald: "That picture has never been in my possession"
Fritz: Wait a minute, I'll show you one you probably have seen"
*Fritz pulls out the original small snap shot (that the enlargement was made from)
Oswald: "I have never seen that picture either. That picture's been reduced from the big one"
Fritz then asks Oswald 'how so' and Oswald gets in to a long argument with Fritz about his knowledge of photography, asking Fritz a number of times whether the smaller photograph was made from the large or whether the larger was made from the smaller...
Fritz: "We made this enlargement from the snapshot we found in the search."
Oswald: "Well, I understand photography real well and at the proper time I will show that they're fakes. Right now, I have nothing more to say about them"

Can you spot what the issue is?

First keep in mind that previously Oswald had said that he got his gun, then denied owning a gun, then admitted to owning a gun. Fritz starts this with a question aimed at tripping Oswald up by asking about his ownership of the gun, and Oswald repeats that he never owned a gun. At first Oswald doesn't want to talk about the BYP (Without the advice of an attorney) but then starts talking about it anyway. First he denies it is his face, then admits it is his face claiming that his picture has been taken after being arrested and has been put on a different body. Having been tripped up on the face Oswald repeats the excuse of it being put on a different body. Oswald states that it is not his body but then trips himself up further by saying that someone has superimposed a rifle in his hand and a gun in his pocket (his hand & his pocket = his body), Oswald inadvertantly is admitting that it is his body... he is all over the place. lol

 

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

The reason Captain Will Fritz contradicted himself in his re-telling of the LHO dialog is because Captain Will Fritz was lying as fast as a race car.

It's interesting that you say as 'fast as a race car'. When the two options are considered who is more likely to be 'lying as fast as a race car'. Remember also it's not just Fritz's note that Oswald's words come from!

The two options are:

What Oswald is claimed to have said is what Oswald said
or
What Oswald is claimed to have said Fritz made up.

As you have previously noted, Fritz had 'weeks' to make up his notes - that's a long time to make stuff up. ;)

Regards

P.S. Let me ask you this question, Paul; regarding Oswald's movements from leaving the Depository to going to the theatre. What do you think Fritz would claim Oswald said about that?

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7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


You guys are talking nonsense IMO. (Either that or Shelley lied to the Warren Commission about this for some reason.) Here is Shelley's WC testimony:

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl [Gloria Calvery] that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

There is no freakin' way the man is gonna confuse "3 or 4 minutes" with 15 seconds. He even makes it a point that he knew it took 3 or 4 minutes because it took some time for Gloria Calvery to get there.

Bill says it was a false recollection. Funny thing, though, is that Bill Lovelady recalled it the same way as Shelley.

You guys are doing back-flips to get the testimony to match up with who you think are Shelley and Lovelady walking down Elm Street extension.

It would do you guys good to consider the possibility that those guys are not Shelley and Lovelady.

lol I don't think, personally, that I am doing back-flips to get the testimony to match up with who I think are Shelley and Lovelady walking down Elm Street extension.

I agree, in principle, that surely someone can't confuse 15 seconds (nearer 30 seconds surely) with 3 or 4 minutes as it is a big difference. Then again, Shelley is putting that time on how long he thought it was until Calvery ran back up - if his expectation was that it would take her X amount of time to cover that distance then that's what he was going to say...

... anyway, you reckon that Lovelady can still be seen on the steps, but where's Shelley? ;)

Anyroads, I have certainly considered the possibility that those guys are not Shelley and Lovelady. I have also considered that Shelley and Lovelady left the steps seconds after the clip, I have even considered it being 2 and a half minutes (or more) after it.

I've said it before though, the testimony elsewhere ties in, and even Shelley's and Lovelady's testimony ties in (to some extent), the only 'stumbling block' is both of them saying the 3 minutes before leaving the steps. If the 3 minutes is the correct thing, then there are a lot of other people telling porkie pies. ;)

But yeah, I have cetainly considered it - don't think that just because I don't accept it means I haven't considered it. ;)

In terms of PM though, whether it is or isn't Shelley/Lovelady is a moot point because PM is visible on the steps before they left either way. ;)

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Alistair,

I just checked and it is Harry Holmes who made the comment about the commotion in his WC testimony. And you're right, that Holmes has Oswald going downstairs to check out the commotion.

It's noteworthy that Holmes testified that it was at that time, on the first floor near the front door, that the Baker/Oswald encounter took place.

Since I don't believe the 2nd floor encounter took place, I have a feeling that Harry Holmes got this part of his testimony right. That it was a 1st floor encounter, not a 2nd floor one.

Anyway, if Harry Holmes was right about when Oswald went to check the commotion, then Prayer Man cannot be Oswald. Because PM was outside during the shooting, or immediately after the first shot at the very latest.

Here is Holmes's WC testimony for anybody interested in reading it:

Mr Holmes :

Then he said when all this commotion started, “I just went on downstairs.” And he didn’t say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, “I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about.”

Mr Belin :Where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?

Mr Holmes :He said it was in the vestibule.

Mr Belin :He said it was in the vestibule?

Mr Holmes :Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.

Mr Belin :Did he state it was on what floor?

Mr Holmes :First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

Mr Belin :Did he say anything about a Coca Cola or anything like that, if you remember?

Mr Holmes :Seems like he said he was drinking a Coca Cola, standing there by the Coca Cola machine drinking a Coca Cola.

It has to be said, Holmes is merely relating what he heard Oswald say about it all. It's not Holmes saying that was what happened, he is saying that Oswald said that was what happened... taken in to context with what Fritz has Oswald saying earlier then the inference is, as you said, Prayer Man cannot be Oswald.

Just in furtherance to what Sandy has quoted of Holmes testimony, there is also a third part also of relevance where Holmes gives a bit more information...

Quote

Mr. HOLMES. He said when lunchtime came he was working in one of the upper floors with a Negro.
The Negro said, "Come on and let's eat lunch together."
Apparently both of them having a sack lunch. And he said, "You go ahead, send the elevator back up to me and I will come down just as soon as I am finished."
And he didn't say what he was doing. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."
And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."

Sandy, you seem to be doing well in pointing to the 2nd floor encounter not happening. Kudos. Seems also that you are getting round to the thought that PM wasn't Oswald. Is that fair to say? I don't want to misinterpret you.

Regards

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4 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

lol I don't think, personally, that I am doing back-flips to get the testimony to match up with who I think are Shelley and Lovelady walking down Elm Street extension.

I agree, in principle, that surely someone can't confuse 15 seconds (nearer 30 seconds surely) with 3 or 4 minutes as it is a big difference. Then again, Shelley is putting that time on how long he thought it was until Calvery ran back up - if his expectation was that it would take her X amount of time to cover that distance then that's what he was going to say...

 

This is what Sandy hangs his hat on ..........

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl [Gloria Calvery] that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

 

Earlier Shelley had said the following to Mr. Ball .........

Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.
Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.
Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west.
Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?

According to Shelley here ... within a minute he and Lovelady had left the steps and moved to the Island. Once at the Island they stayed for a minute. I personally think this time period of a "minute" is a figure of speech and not meant to be taken literally. Twice Shelley referenced a minute and yet the two men left the steps before Baker had started his run according to what the Couch and Darnell films show.

I think way too much is being made of the references to time because considering what had just happen - I do not think any estimates of time based on recall are going to be accurate. Shelley starts out saying the two men were only on the steps for a minute if we are to take .... if we take him literally. At the same time it appears that Shelley either saw Calvery running towards he and Lovelady or the met her at the stairs. Yet later Shelly places the meeting with Calvery to be around four minutes which is the time frame Shelley gave Mr. Ball for the entire trip around the Plaza to have been made. So both cannot be correct - either they saw Calvery in the first minute or they saw her around four minutes later. Once again I say the only reliable time clock for Shelley and Lovelady's movements in the first minute following the shooting is the Cough and Darnell films.

 

Billy Lovelady said that before he went outside - he went up to the second floor to get a coke. Why would Lovelady grab his lunch and go to the second floor lunchroom to get a coke unless that was his only option.

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.

 

Oddly enough the Couch and Darnell films show what looks to be Shelley and Lovelady walking away from the steps and towards a woman running towards them. Her face turns towards Lovelady as she is passing him. It was then after walking a few more steps that Lovelady seems to move fast and by-passes Shelley and within a few steps he grows in size as his path brings him closer to the camera. Lovelady remembers running to the Island upon hearing Calvery saying the President had been hit and the two films in question show Lovelady hurry his pace to pass Shelley and move closer to the camera which puts him on the Island. Memories in time and actions can be a bit off when under stress, but the camera doesn't make those kinds of mistakes. There should be no confusion as to when the two men left the steps - met Calvery - and made it to the Island.

Mr. BALL - What did you hear?
Mr. LOVELADY - I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.

Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk.
Mr. BALL - A fast walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Note: The Couch and Darnell film show what appears to be Shelley and Lovelady walking away from the stairs at a brisk walk.

 

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.

 

When asked how long after they left the stairs did the see Truly and Baker enter the TSBD - Lovelady said ......

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL - How many steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.

The Couch and Darnell films show that it probably took the  two men about 25 steps to make it to the Island. So some of what these men said may be in error, but parts of their story is spot-on in conjunction with what the Couch and Darnell film shows. Again - the film rules over memory in my view.

 

Edited by Bill Miller
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5 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Seems also that you are getting round to the thought that PM wasn't Oswald. Is that fair to say? I don't want to misinterpret you.

I would say the odds of PM being Oswald, in my mind, have decreased a bit. But not a lot, because Harry Holmes was just sitting in and may have remembered some things wrong. As far as I know he didn't take notes and didn't write a report. He was going on memory. AFAIK.

The FBI reports on Oswald's interrogation state that he was having lunch during the shooting. If correct, then PM cannot be Oswald. On the other hand, suppose Oswald told his interrogators that he first ate lunch and then went outside to see Kennedy. Would the interrogators have written that down? They may well have decided not to write it down, at least not so explicitly. So they decide that Oswald was still at lunch during the procession. And he goes outside later, after the shooting.

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5 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

I agree, in principle, that surely someone can't confuse 15 seconds (nearer 30 seconds surely) with 3 or 4 minutes as it is a big difference.

It seems to me that 15 seconds is closer to reality, because (alleged) Lovelady and (alleged) Shelley are seen already walking down the street by the time Baker gets there. Maybe we should compromise and say 22 seconds. It's hard for me to believe that 1) Calvery got there within that time frame, and 2) that a man wouldn't instinctively know the difference between 22 seconds and a few minutes.

Then again, Shelley is putting that time on how long he thought it was until Calvery ran back up - if his expectation was that it would take her X amount of time to cover that distance then that's what he was going to say...

Yeah, but he wasn't just reasoning through it like we are here. He was actually there and experienced it. I think he mentioned the time Calvery would have gotten there just to support his recollection of 3 or 4 minutes.

... anyway, you reckon that Lovelady can still be seen on the steps, but where's Shelley? ;)

Shelley could very well still be out on the steps. It's hard to make people out. Another possibility is that he went inside just long enough to call his wife, as he said in his affidavit. Though it seems to me that he would have wanted to get more information before calling her. He may have stepped inside for a moment.

 

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14 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

>> Just so we don't forget -- the only way to speak of "Oswald's alibi" is to accept the WC testimony of Captain Will Fritz.  Not everybody accepts his make-believe Oswald.

(1)  Okay. But Fritz wasn't the only one who made a report or testified regarding the interrogations.

(2) Regardless, what reason do we have to think Fritz lied when reporting on the interrogations?

(3) I mean, I can see being suspicious if what Fritz reported incriminated Oswald. But if it didn't incriminate, then I see no reason to doubt it.

>> Remember that Fritz only wrote down what Oswald said WEEKS after the event.

(4) But he wrote it down from notes. And what he wrote can be compared to the other reports for accuracy.

Sandy,

All good questions, and I don't have final answers for them -- however, I remain deeply suspicious, and I'll tell you why; by the numbers:

(1) Fritz wasn't the only WC witness who made a report on the final interrogations of Lee Harvey Oswald -- and in fact almost all the notes of these interrogators of LHO (all supplied WEEKS later) match in almost every detail.

(1.1) The problem should be obvious -- the WEEKS of delay allowed all these interrogators of LHO to coordinate their notes.  Nobody was monitoring them.  They include: Will Fritz, James Hosty, James Bookhout, Forrest Sorrels and Harry Holmes.

(1.2) These were all Dallas people.  Although Hosty and Bookhout were FBI agents, they did not come from Washington DC, they worked full-time in Dallas.  Although Forrest Sorrels was a Secret Service agent, he did not come from Washington DC, he worked full-time in Dallas.  Harry Holmes was the Dallas Postmaster.

(1.3) Their notes match very closely, because they had WEEKS to coordinate their notes.  They match too closely, IMHO, because they are often word-for-word. 

(1.4) The great exception is Harry Holmes, who testified three times more than everybody else -- he was nervous, IMHO.  At the end he testified that LHO opened up and told them every single detail about his Mexico City trip -- why he went, where he went first, where he went secondly, and why, and the commotion caused, and his conclusions.  The WC attorney asked him directly -- did LHO tell you this or did you read it somewhere?   Holmes insisted that LHO told them.   But only James Hosty would know these details, because James Hosty (by his own admission) was close to the CIA agents working in Mexico City and tracking LHO there. 

(2) The main reason I think Captain Will Fritz lied when reporting on the LHO interrogations is that LHO was murdered in the custody of Captain Will Fritz.  It seems to me that Will Fritz and DPD Chief Jesse Curry worked for days to coordinate placing Jack Ruby in exactly the right position to whack LHO.

(2.1) It seems to me that the DPD high-command coordinated their foot-soldier co-conspirators to sneak Jack Ruby into the LHO Press Conference late Friday night.  

(2.2) It seems to me that the DPD high-command coordinated their foot-soldier co-conspirators to sneak Jack Ruby into the DPD basement on Sunday morning. 

(2.3) In both cases the aim was to get Jack Ruby to kill LHO in the sight of all the newsmen and cameras.   They were successful.

(2.4) At the very minimum, those involved in the LHO murder were Fritz, Curry, Hosty, Sorrels and Holmes.  I'm sure there were others, but I don't have a solid case yet.  I think that Sheriff Bill Decker was aware of the plot.  I think that Deputy Buddy Walthers was aware of the plot.  Other Deputies were close to the plot.  They actually "found" LHO's rifle -- not the DPD cops, but the Sheriff's Deputies.

(3) The testimony of Will Fritz was smooth -- it was calculated -- it was not one-sided accusations or lopsided confessions.  It was almost ALL DENIALS.  And that made it look realistic.  Will Fritz was going for a realistic look in his lies. 

(4)  Fritz did not invent his "notes" alone -- he calculated them with Hosty, Bookhout, Sorrels and Holmes, and probably others.

(4.1) Fritz most likely used DPD Affidavits from eye-witnesses to help to forge his "notes."

(4.2) It is shocking to me that Fritz's notes and Hosty's notes often match word-for-word.

(4.3) You say that Frtiz's notes can be compared with others for accuracy -- but that can also mean that they were "coordinated" with others.  They had WEEKS to coordinate.

(4.4) Fritz claims he had "notes," but nobody ever saw those notes until MONTHS later, IIRC.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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4 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

This is what Sandy hangs his hat on ..........

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl [Gloria Calvery] that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Earlier Shelley had said the following to Mr. Ball .........

Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.
Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.
Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west.
Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?

According to Shelley here ... within a minute he and Lovelady had left the steps and moved to the Island. Once at the Island they stayed for a minute. I personally think this time period of a "minute" is a figure of speech and not meant to be taken literally. Twice Shelley referenced a minute and yet the two men left the steps before Baker had started his run according to what the Couch and Darnell films show.

I think way too much is being made of the references to time because considering what had just happen - I do not think any estimates of time based on recall are going to be accurate. Shelley starts out saying the two men were only on the steps for a minute if we are to take .... if we take him literally. At the same time it appears that Shelley either saw Calvery running towards he and Lovelady or the met her at the stairs. Yet later Shelly places the meeting with Calvery to be around four minutes which is the time frame Shelley gave Mr. Ball for the entire trip around the Plaza to have been made. So both cannot be correct - either they saw Calvery in the first minute or they saw her around four minutes later. Once again I say the only reliable time clock for Shelley and Lovelady's movements in the first minute following the shooting is the Cough and Darnell films.

Billy Lovelady said that before he went outside - he went up to the second floor to get a coke. Why would Lovelady grab his lunch and go to the second floor lunchroom to get a coke unless that was his only option.

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.

Oddly enough the Couch and Darnell films show what looks to be Shelley and Lovelady walking away from the steps and towards a woman running towards them. Her face turns towards Lovelady as she is passing him. It was then after walking a few more steps that Lovelady seems to move fast and by-passes Shelley and within a few steps he grows in size as his path brings him closer to the camera. Lovelady remembers running to the Island upon hearing Calvery saying the President had been hit and the two films in question show Lovelady hurry his pace to pass Shelley and move closer to the camera which puts him on the Island. Memories in time and actions can be a bit off when under stress, but the camera doesn't make those kinds of mistakes. There should be no confusion as to when the two men left the steps - met Calvery - and made it to the Island.

Mr. BALL - What did you hear?
Mr. LOVELADY - I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.

Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk.
Mr. BALL - A fast walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Note: The Couch and Darnell film show what appears to be Shelley and Lovelady walking away from the stairs at a brisk walk.

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.

When asked how long after they left the stairs did the see Truly and Baker enter the TSBD - Lovelady said ......

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL - How many steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.

The Couch and Darnell films show that it probably took the  two men about 25 steps to make it to the Island. So some of what these men said may be in error, but parts of their story is spot-on in conjunction with what the Couch and Darnell film shows. Again - the film rules over memory in my view.

Bill,

I agree with every word you say here.  This is exactly how I see it, too.  Clear thinking, IMHO.  Kudos.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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