Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Martin Hinrichs]

question:

Since prayer man appears to be back in the shadows, how does the sun reach the ( camera lense, coke bottle bottom ? ) to make a sunlight reflection ?

Good call Robin but.....

there is something close to his face anyway.

I mean, we can ask questions over and over but where is the answer?

It is a bright white spot. It is there and visible.

[Robert Prudhomme]

[Officer Baker in his 11/22/63 affidavit]

I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager

and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator."

Great catch, Robin.

You are right

and Murph is wrong,

just like he was wrong

about the music!

In his WC testimony, Roy Truly was a bit more specific in describing his and Officer Baker's movements as they ran toward the TSBD entrance.

Mr. TRULY:

...

I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that this man wants on top of the building. He doesn't know the plan of the floor. And-that is-that just pepped in my mind, and I ran in with him. As we got in the lobby, almost on the inside of the first floor, this policeman asked me where the stairway is. And I said, "This way".

...

[end quote]

For as much as we can see in the Darnell film, it seems consistent with Truly's description.

Excellent work, Michael; end of argument.

[Richard Hocking]

A reasonable question Robin.

Although PM is not in direct sunlight, Dealey Plaza was full of reflective surfaces. The windows on the buildings, cars, and the reflecting pools would have provided multiple sources for indirect sunlight into the alcove.

And we could also be looking at artifacts,

[best Charles Laughton]

Mr. Hocking, could we not?

Veddey well, M'Lud,

I rest my case!

Ray, the Weigman film certainly has it's share of artifacts. The persistence of the image, however, throughout the entire clip should rule out any possibility of being an artifact. And it shows up clearly again in Darnell.

[Sean Murphy]

The shape, size and brightness of the object relative to the man's face is IMO fully consistent with it being the eaten side of an apple:

Note the contrast between Gosling's flesh tones in the shade and the 'glow effect' the apple's exposed inner white part (image darkened and contrast boosted):

Edited September 4, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Richard Hocking]

An excerpt from one of Baker's Warren Commission sessions that may fit into Sean's discussion of Baker/elevator/stairs.

from http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page267.php

There is some interesting interaction between Senator Cooper and Mr. Belin.

[begin Excerpt]

...

Mr. Baker. No; from the street in. As I ran in I was pushing them aside and running through them, and some way, Mr. Truly got from my back to my front.
Now, he said he was right behind me. I never did see him until I got in and asked the question of where the stairs was, so evidently whenever I went in the door why he came on in. There were several people coming in as I, you know, came in, there were several in front of me and also around my sides and my back. And it seemed to me like a double door deal. Senator Cooper. As you went up on the elevator could you see out of the elevator onto floors? Mr. Baker. Yes, sir. The best that I could, that is the reason I wasn't paying too much attention to the elevator I was looking around all those floors. Senator Cooper. Did you see anyone? Mr. Belin. When you say up on the elevator, he didn't get on the elevator until he had got up on the stairs. Senator Cooper. I am aware of that. Mr. Baker. I was still looking. Senator Cooper. You went up on the second floor by stairs? Mr. Baker. Yes, sir. Senator Cooper. Then you got on the elevator. Mr. Belin. No, sir; he didn't get on the elevator until the fifth floor. Senator Cooper. Anyway, as you walked up the stairs could you see into each floor space as you passed from floor to floor? Mr. Baker. Partly. Now, this building has got pillars in it, you know, and then it has got books, cases of books stacked all in it. And the best that I could, you know, I would look through there and see if I could see anybody. Senator Cooper. Did you see anyone? Mr. Baker. No, sir. Senator Cooper. When you looked? Mr. Baker. Not from the second floor on up. ... [end of excerpt]

[Michael Griffin]

A reasonable question Robin.

Although PM is not in direct sunlight, Dealey Plaza was full of reflective surfaces. The windows on the buildings, cars, and the reflecting pools would have provided multiple sources for indirect sunlight into the alcove.

And we could also be looking at artifacts,

[best Charles Laughton]

Mr. Hocking, could we not?

Veddey well, M'Lud,

I rest my case!

I think that might be a possibility if you were speaking of a single photo. Our photography experts (Robin, Martin, & Duncan) will please correct me if I'm wrong, but the chances that an object of similar size, shape, & position appearing in a number of consecutive movie frames is an artifact would seem to be pretty infinitesimal.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Michael Griffin

[Sean Murphy]

Roy Truly's troubles with the spooky elevator-related memories of the "superstitious" Bonnie Ray Williams did not begin on 11/23/63.

The problem was already evident--doubly evident in fact--in the affidavit statement given by Bonnie Ray on the very day of the assassination (click to enlarge):

Three elements here:

1. Bonnie Ray noticed some officers come up to the fifth floor.

2. They, the officers, then left the floor.

3. Bonnie Ray and his two co-workers then took the elevator down to the 4th floor.

Why does Bonnie Ray say some officers, and not one officer as in his next day's and his March 64 statement?

Simple: he had seen the elevator come up to the fifth floor and one officer get out and take a scope of the floor.

That officer had then returned to the waiting elevator, shouting 'OK, let's go' or words to that effect.

Bonnie Ray correctly inferred that there must have been at least one other person inside the elevator, operating it.

He incorrectly assumed that other person or persons to be another officer or officers.

What he had in fact seen was Marrion Baker and Roy Truly on their way up the building in an elevator.

**

Element # 3--the three black workers' taking of an elevator down from the fifth floor to the fourth--is no less of a disaster for the Truly-Baker story.

Truly and Baker told the WC that when they reached the fifth floor the west elevator had disappeared and the east elevator was available.

So they took the east elevator.

So what?

So this: how were Bonnie Ray and friends able to find an elevator to take them down to the fourth floor given that Truly and Baker had just taken the one remaining elevator off the fifth floor?

**

The usual explanation for the disappearance of the west elevator from the fifth floor between Truly's calling for it from one and his and Baker's reaching the fifth floor is that it was taken down by Jack Dougherty at some point during Truly and Baker's ascent of the building by stairs..

Well, we need to talk about Jack.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Robert Prudhomme]

An excerpt from one of Baker's Warren Commission sessions that may fit into Sean's discussion of Baker/elevator/stairs.

from http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page267.php

There is some interesting interaction between Senator Cooper and Mr. Belin.

[begin Excerpt]

...

Mr. Baker. No; from the street in. As I ran in I was pushing them aside and running through them, and some way, Mr. Truly got from my back to my front.

Now, he said he was right behind me. I never did see him until I got in and asked the question of where the stairs was, so evidently whenever I went in the door why he came on in. There were several people coming in as I, you know, came in, there were several in front of me and also around my sides and my back. And it seemed to me like a double door deal. Senator Cooper. As you went up on the elevator could you see out of the elevator onto floors? Mr. Baker. Yes, sir. The best that I could, that is the reason I wasn't paying too much attention to the elevator I was looking around all those floors. Senator Cooper. Did you see anyone? Mr. Belin. When you say up on the elevator, he didn't get on the elevator until he had got up on the stairs. Senator Cooper. I am aware of that. Mr. Baker. I was still looking. Senator Cooper. You went up on the second floor by stairs? Mr. Baker. Yes, sir. Senator Cooper. Then you got on the elevator. Mr. Belin. No, sir; he didn't get on the elevator until the fifth floor. Senator Cooper. Anyway, as you walked up the stairs could you see into each floor space as you passed from floor to floor? Mr. Baker. Partly. Now, this building has got pillars in it, you know, and then it has got books, cases of books stacked all in it. And the best that I could, you know, I would look through there and see if I could see anybody. Senator Cooper. Did you see anyone? Mr. Baker. No, sir. Senator Cooper. When you looked? Mr. Baker. Not from the second floor on up. ... [end of excerpt]

You have to hate witnesses who stray from the script.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Ray, the Weigman film certainly has it's share of artifacts. The persistence of the image, however, throughout the entire clip should rule out any possibility of being an artifact. And it shows up clearly again in Darnell.

\II

I put it to you Mr. Hocking,

that Prayer Man was wearing a silver bracelet that day,

that would adedeqately explain this flash of light,

would it not, Sir?

If you could do a close-up,

you would see inscribed upon it

the name of

Lee.

If I am not mistaken,

he is also wearing a watch

on his right wrist.

Seems to me either of these would be a better candidate

than a camera or a coke bottle!

Edited September 1, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Ray Mitcham]

The size of the reflection, it would seem to be an alarm clock rather than a watch.

[Sean Murphy]

An excerpt from one of Baker's Warren Commission sessions that may fit into Sean's discussion of Baker/elevator/stairs.

from http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page267.php

There is some interesting interaction between Senator Cooper and Mr. Belin.

[begin Excerpt]

...

Mr. Baker. No; from the street in. As I ran in I was pushing them aside and running through them, and some way, Mr. Truly got from my back to my front.

Now, he said he was right behind me. I never did see him until I got in and asked the question of where the stairs was, so evidently whenever I went in the door why he came on in. There were several people coming in as I, you know, came in, there were several in front of me and also around my sides and my back. And it seemed to me like a double door deal. Senator Cooper. As you went up on the elevator could you see out of the elevator onto floors? Mr. Baker. Yes, sir. The best that I could, that is the reason I wasn't paying too much attention to the elevator I was looking around all those floors. Senator Cooper. Did you see anyone? Mr. Belin. When you say up on the elevator, he didn't get on the elevator until he had got up on the stairs. Senator Cooper. I am aware of that. Mr. Baker. I was still looking. Senator Cooper. You went up on the second floor by stairs? Mr. Baker. Yes, sir. Senator Cooper. Then you got on the elevator. Mr. Belin. No, sir; he didn't get on the elevator until the fifth floor. Senator Cooper. Anyway, as you walked up the stairs could you see into each floor space as you passed from floor to floor? Mr. Baker. Partly. Now, this building has got pillars in it, you know, and then it has got books, cases of books stacked all in it. And the best that I could, you know, I would look through there and see if I could see anybody. Senator Cooper. Did you see anyone? Mr. Baker. No, sir. Senator Cooper. When you looked? Mr. Baker. Not from the second floor on up. ... [end of excerpt]

Brilliant catch, Richard!

And note the alacrity with which Belin corrects the 'erroneous' impression being created by the startling turn in Cooper & Baker's little exchange.

[Sean Murphy]

There is an electrifying moment in the 1986 London TV Trial when Gerry Spence (the world's second worst Oswald-defending lawyer) shows Marrion Baker the Doorman figure in Altgens's famous photograph.

Baker looks at the figure and says, "Resembles Oswald but I'm not... I don't know him".

Even Vincent Bugliosi is taken aback.

Resembles Oswald but I'm not...: what is he about to say before he corrects himself?

Surely this: I'm not sure.

Since the fateful moment that a handcuffed Oswald was brought into the DPD Homicide Office just as Baker was giving his affidavit, Baker has known Oswald was at the front entrance for the assassination. Although he did finally jump on board the Lunchroom Express, at no point has he gone beyond that fairytale's minimal requirements of putting Oswald in the lunchroom some 90 seconds after the shooting.

And his insistence from day one that Oswald was not sweating or out of breath or agitated when he saw him in the lunchroom is perfectly consistent with his pointed refusal here to say in response to Spence what Bugliosi must be expecting him to say: Resembles Oswald but it can't be him because I saw him in the lunchroom just after that.

Whether from a principled refusal to add extra fuel to the Oswald-is-guilty myth or simply CYA insurance against the day that proof--photographic or otherwise--emerges that Oswald was out front, Baker at no point does anything to dilute the ambiguous significance of Oswald's presence in the lunchroom.

**

Go to 4:20 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtQA5FL9ZoE

Edited September 4, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Sean: I do not understand why you have a problem

with the 2nd floor coke incident.

It is part of the proof on Lee Oswald's innocence.

[Sean Murphy]

To recap where the counter-narrative I'm putting forward has led us so far:

• Oswald out front for the assassination (Prayer Man)
• Briefest of encounters with Baker as the latter was rushing into the first floor
• Oswald remained around the front entrance/lobby area
• Baker and Truly ran to the rear of the first floor and took the west elevator upstairs

There is nothing complicated in any of these real events.

All of Baker's and Truly's actions are innocent and intelligible.

We might even say that Baker's are pretty heroic.

All the complications and all the shenanigans come later, as the authorities scramble to put together a half-coherent cover story to bury the simple events they know to have taken place.

• Later that afternoon, Baker is persuaded to give a phoney affidavit report about challenging an 'employee' by the third or fourth floor rear stairway
• Later that evening or night, a new improved version is put together.
• It has become clear that the only halfway viable location for an Oswald encounter off the first floor and anywhere near the rear stairway is the second-floor lunchroom.

**

On 1 December 63 The Washington Post carried the following report:

Researchers' eyes have over the years been drawn to the last detail in the underlined sections: "sipping from a Coke bottle".

And indeed, this was one version of the lunchroom story that Roy Truly had begun to give out on the evening or night of the assassination.

However it's the details before that that are of most interest in the present context.

The story being told here is not of Truly and the officer running to the rear of the first floor.

Instead it has Truly and the officer (whose gun, NB, is drawn--a fact already demonstrated in Darnell) go up the front steps and then immediately go up the stairs to the second floor.

The stairs in question are not the rear stairs but the front-of-house stairs (black arrow marks the "small storage room" where Campbell and Reid will in the real world soon see Oswald):

Now for the kick in the head:

As they made their way to a back stairway...

These words are only puzzling if we forget the words just preceding them.

Truly has led Baker up the front stairs so that they can go through the second floor (via either corridors or office area) and make their way to the back stairway which leads all the way up to the top of the building (the front stairs only went up as far as the second floor).

**

But why would the new lunchroom story need to delete the real-life dash to the rear of the first floor?

For the simple reason that the officer needs to be given a route that will take him right by the second-floor lunchroom.

It is impossible to go from the front stairs to the second-floor rear stairs without passing the lunchroom.

**

Roy Truly's very first on-the-record mention of a second-floor lunchroom incident, given late on 11/22, is notable for the distinct impression it gives that he and the officer took the front stairs not the back:

They saw no one there: Truly's giveaway disclaimer as to Oswald's presence at the first floor entrance

he accompanied the officer immediately up the stairs to the second floor of the building: front stairs, for a route that will bring Oswald into Baker's path en route to the rear stairway

Edited September 4, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[J. Raymond Carroll]

They saw no one there: Truly's giveaway disclaimer as to Oswald's presence at the first floor entrance

he accompanied the officer immediately up the stairs to the second floor of the building: front stairs, for a route that will bring Oswald into Baker's path en route to the rear stairway

Tell me this, Sean,

and tell me no more:

Do you make this stuff up

as you go along?

It makes me want to hear

a good Australian song

called The Pub With No Beer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E0aZ387M_I

Edited September 1, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll