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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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[...]

Because [the area between the self-closing windowed vestibule door and the lunchroom door] is so small, if Oswald had gone through [the windowed vestibule door], Baker wouldn't have seen him because by the time the door automatically closed, Oswald would have been out of the vestibule and in the lunchroom, as he was when Baker moved closer to the door and saw him a second time "walking away" in the lunchroom.

BK

Bill,

In his WC testimony, Baker said that the windowed vestibule door might still have been in the act of closing when he caught a glimpse of Oswald through its window.

If so, I guess the story would be that 1) Oswald ducked into the vestibule, 2) Truly hit the landing, 3) Oswald watched Truly start to go up the stairs to the third floor, 4) Oswald then started to leave through that windowed vestibule door, 5) Oswald heard Baker coming up the stairway, 6) Oswald ducked back into the vestibule, and 7) Baker caught a glimpse of Oswald through the vestibule door's window.

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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[...]

Because [the area between the self-closing windowed vestibule door and the lunchroom door] is so small, if Oswald had gone through [the windowed vestibule door], Baker wouldn't have seen him because by the time the door automatically closed, Oswald would have been out of the vestibule and in the lunchroom, as he was when Baker moved closer to the door and saw him a second time "walking away" in the lunchroom.

BK

Bill,

In his WC testimony, Baker said that the windowed vestibule door might still have been in the act of closing when he caught a glimpse of Oswald through its window.

If so, I guess the story would be that 1) Oswald ducked into the vestibule, 2) Truly hit the landing, 3) Oswald watched Truly start to go up the stairs to the third floor, 4) Oswald then started to leave through that windowed vestibule door, 5) Oswald heard Baker coming up the stairway, 6) Oswald ducked back into the vestibule, and 7) Baker caught a glimpse of Oswald through the vestibule door's window.

--Tommy :sun

Tommy, if you have read Roffman or my article on The Doors of Perception, or if you could go there and see for yourself - as the Secret Service did and the Warren Commission lawyers could have done, but instead called Truly back for a second sworn testimony at the Post Office Annex just across the plaza from the TSBD, and asked him only one question - does the 2nd floor lunchroom door that Baker saw Oswald through the window of - have an automatic closing device? And the answer was yes.

And if you took basic geometry in high school or if you draw a square on a piece of paper to represent the two by two foot square window of the door in question, and then move the right side towards you to represent the door opening or in the process of closing - you will see that basic geometry dictates that even if the door was open a few inches - the size of the window would decrease and you wouldn't be able to see anything through the window - therefore - the door had to be totally closed - slammed shut for Baker to see anything through that window.

So when Baker testified before the Warren Commission - do you think they they tried to get him and Truly to say that either one of them saw the door open, even just a little bit?

Or do you think they got Truly and Baker and Reid to totally lie an concoct the whole event?

I think Baker's repeated statements - including years later at the London trial - he made it very clear that the first time he saw Oswald was through the window of the door - a fleeting glance, and for him to have done that the door, by scientific certainty - had to be closed - and in the reenactment, they discovered that when someone went through that door, and made a left to go into the lunchroom, by the time the door was shut - the person who went through the door was out of view of the window.

David Belin pressed Truly on the matter - and went off the record more than once with both Baker and Truly and asked Truly on how come he didn't see Oswald go through the door as he should have if he had gone through the door before Baker saw him, - I think Belin asked him if he was looking at his shoes or not paying attention and tried to get something out of Truly that would explain why he didn't see Oswald go through that door as he should have - 20 feet in front of him.

And Baker stuck to his guns - saw him first through the window - the first thing out of his mouth at the London trial, but the defense attorney didn't follow up on it and instead brought up the man in the doorway instead, and then concentrated on Oswald's cool and calm attitude.

But the basic fact is that Baker could not have seen Oswald through the window of the door if the door was open at all. It had to be closed shut.

Sure, Baker said maybe I missed the door closing, but he didn't see it moving, the only thing he saw moving was the man on the other side of the window, and for him to have seen anything through the window the door had to be closed, which means that Oswald didn't go through it, and alas, there's another door on the other side, and that's the door Oswald actually leaves by.

So they were going to fit a round peg in a square hole - even though Truly didn't see Oswald go through the door, as he should have if he did, Baker only saw him through the closed door, Dougherty didn't see Oswald run past him on the fifth floor, as he should have, the secretaries didn't see anybody when they ran down the steps, as they should have seen Oswald or anyone if they were on the rickety old steps at the same time, and their boss didn't see anybody run past the fourth floor where she was standing by the steps.

So either all of these people just missed each other like a Keystone Cops comedy - or the more believable truth of the matter is that Baker saw Oswald through the window of the closed door as he slowly walked past on the way from the office to the lunchroom, just as he claimed during his interrogation.

I believe Baker saw Oswald through that window - and if that happened, then science and geometry dictate that the door must have been closed, and Oswald got to that location from the offices and not the stairs.

That's my take, and I've put a lot of time and effort into arriving at that conclusion, and the only way out is for Oswald to have ran even faster than 90 seconds past all those who we know in fact used those stairs and for him to have arrived beyond the door and closed it before Truly and Baker arrived and then walk in front of the window for Baker to see him. He would have had to linger there after he got there and then allowed Baker to see him even though he was in flight from them.

You can believe that, or you can see that it is entirely more than likely that Oswald didn't come down those stairs or go through that door, but was where he said he was at the time of the shooting - on the first floor - and he went up the front steps and through the offices and Baker saw him through the window of the closed door as he waltzed past, cool and calm, not having shot and killed anyone or having run 300 feet down four flights of stairs and barely making it into the lunchroom without Truly seeing him and Baker just catching a glimpse of him through the window as the door closed, having lingered there for a few second for Baker to see him.

Any theory as to what happened must take all the facts into consideration and not just the facts that support a particular theory.

If Baker saw Oswald through the door window, the door was shut, and if Baker told the Warren Commission that the door may have been closing, that's what they wanted to here, but the Secret Service and the Warren Commission lawyers who called Truly back to testify about the door, and Goldberg, the author of the Warren Report narrative on this part of the investigation, who had the FBI get additional sworn statements from both Truly and Baker on the eve of the release of their report, knew better.

And so should we.

Edited by William Kelly
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[...]

Because [the area between the self-closing windowed vestibule door and the lunchroom door] is so small, if Oswald had gone through [the windowed vestibule door], Baker wouldn't have seen him because by the time the door automatically closed, Oswald would have been out of the vestibule and in the lunchroom, as he was when Baker moved closer to the door and saw him a second time "walking away" in the lunchroom.

BK

Bill,

In his WC testimony, Baker said that the windowed vestibule door might still have been in the act of closing when he caught a glimpse of Oswald through its window.

If so, I guess the story would be that 1) Oswald ducked into the vestibule, 2) Truly hit the landing, 3) Oswald watched Truly start to go up the stairs to the third floor, 4) Oswald then started to leave through that windowed vestibule door, 5) Oswald heard Baker coming up the stairway, 6) Oswald ducked back into the vestibule, and 7) Baker caught a glimpse of Oswald through the vestibule door's window.

--Tommy :sun

[...]

... if you took basic geometry in high school or if you draw a square on a piece of paper to represent the two by two foot square window of the door in question, and then move the right side towards you to represent the door opening or in the process of closing - you will see that basic geometry dictates that even if the door was open a few inches - the size of the window would decrease and you wouldn't be able to see anything through the window - therefore - the door had to be totally closed - slammed shut for Baker to see anything through that window.

[...]

Bill,

I'm arguing that this story was an imperfect but sufficiently plausible way (for fifty years) to make him disappear from the front steps and place him significantly closer to the sixth floor sniper's nest.

If you'll look at the photo in post number 870, this thread, you'll see that the vestibule door's window is pretty darn big. Seems to me that if the door was still open an inch or two (in the act of closing), it wouldn't have made much difference in Baker's ability to catch a glimpse of Oswald through that window.

Here's another photo of that vestibule door. I'm talking about the top photo. (The bottom photo shows the door with what looks like a tiny window at the other end of the lunchroom.) This is from the History Matters website. Warren Commission Hearings. Volume XVII. Page 213.

"Clicking" on the photo enlarges it and puts everything in proper proportion.

WH_Vol17_0120a.jpg

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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[...]

Because [the area between the self-closing windowed vestibule door and the lunchroom door] is so small, if Oswald had gone through [the windowed vestibule door], Baker wouldn't have seen him because by the time the door automatically closed, Oswald would have been out of the vestibule and in the lunchroom, as he was when Baker moved closer to the door and saw him a second time "walking away" in the lunchroom.

BK

Bill,

In his WC testimony, Baker said that the windowed vestibule door might still have been in the act of closing when he caught a glimpse of Oswald through its window.

If so, I guess the story would be that 1) Oswald ducked into the vestibule, 2) Truly hit the landing, 3) Oswald watched Truly start to go up the stairs to the third floor, 4) Oswald then started to leave through that windowed vestibule door, 5) Oswald heard Baker coming up the stairway, 6) Oswald ducked back into the vestibule, and 7) Baker caught a glimpse of Oswald through the vestibule door's window.

--Tommy :sun

Tommy, if you have read Roffman or my article on The Doors of Perception, or if you could go there and see for yourself - as the Secret Service did and the Warren Commission lawyers could have done, but instead called Truly back for a second sworn testimony at the Post Office Annex just across the plaza from the TSBD, and asked him only one question - does the 2nd floor lunchroom door that Baker saw Oswald through the window of - have an automatic closing device? And the answer was yes.

And if you took basic geometry in high school or if you draw a square on a piece of paper to represent the two by two foot square window of the door in question, and then move the right side towards you to represent the door opening or in the process of closing - you will see that basic geometry dictates that even if the door was open a few inches - the size of the window would decrease and you wouldn't be able to see anything through the window - therefore - the door had to be totally closed - slammed shut for Baker to see anything through that window.

So when Baker testified before the Warren Commission - do you think they they tried to get him and Truly to say that either one of them saw the door open, even just a little bit?

Or do you think they got Truly and Baker and Reid to totally lie an concoct the whole event?

I think Baker's repeated statements - including years later at the London trial - he made it very clear that the first time he saw Oswald was through the window of the door - a fleeting glance, and for him to have done that the door, by scientific certainty - had to be closed - and in the reenactment, they discovered that when someone went through that door, and made a left to go into the lunchroom, by the time the door was shut - the person who went through the door was out of view of the window.

David Belin pressed Truly on the matter - and went off the record more than once with both Baker and Truly and asked Truly on how come he didn't see Oswald go through the door as he should have if he had gone through the door before Baker saw him, - I think Belin asked him if he was looking at his shoes or not paying attention and tried to get something out of Truly that would explain why he didn't see Oswald go through that door as he should have - 20 feet in front of him.

And Baker stuck to his guns - saw him first through the window - the first thing out of his mouth at the London trial, but the defense attorney didn't follow up on it and instead brought up the man in the doorway instead, and then concentrated on Oswald's cool and calm attitude.

But the basic fact is that Baker could not have seen Oswald through the window of the door if the door was open at all. It had to be closed shut.

Sure, Baker said maybe I missed the door closing, but he didn't see it moving, the only thing he saw moving was the man on the other side of the window, and for him to have seen anything through the window the door had to be closed, which means that Oswald didn't go through it, and alas, there's another door on the other side, and that's the door Oswald actually leaves by.

So they were going to fit a round peg in a square hole - even though Truly didn't see Oswald go through the door, as he should have if he did, Baker only saw him through the closed door, Dougherty didn't see Oswald run past him on the fifth floor, as he should have, the secretaries didn't see anybody when they ran down the steps, as they should have seen Oswald or anyone if they were on the rickety old steps at the same time, and their boss didn't see anybody run past the fourth floor where she was standing by the steps.

So either all of these people just missed each other like a Keystone Cops comedy - or the more believable truth of the matter is that Baker saw Oswald through the window of the closed door as he slowly walked past on the way from the office to the lunchroom, just as he claimed during his interrogation.

I believe Baker saw Oswald through that window - and if that happened, then science and geometry dictate that the door must have been closed, and Oswald got to that location from the offices and not the stairs.

That's my take, and I've put a lot of time and effort into arriving at that conclusion, and the only way out is for Oswald to have ran even faster than 90 seconds past all those who we know in fact used those stairs and arrived beyond the door and closed it before Truly and Baker arrived and then walk in front of the window for Baker to see him.

You can believe that, or you can see that it is entirely more than likely that Oswald didn't come down those stairs or go through that door, but was where he said he was at the time of the shooting - on the first floor - and he went up the front steps and through the offices and Baker saw him through the window of the closed door as he waltzed past, cool and calm, not having shot and killed anyone or having run 300 feet down four flights of stairs and barely making it into the lunchroom without Truly seeing him and Baker just catching a glimpse of him through the window as the door closed.

Any theory as to what happened must take all the facts into consideration and not just the facts that support a particular theory.

If Baker saw Oswald through the door window, the door was shut, and if Baker told the Warren Commission that the door may have been closing, that's what they wanted to here, but the Secret Service and the Warren Commission lawyers who called Truly back to testify about the door, and Goldberg, the author of the Warren Report narrative on this part of the investigation, who had the FBI get additional sworn statements from both Truly and Baker on the eve of the release of their report, knew better.

Bill,

I'm not arguing that Oswald actually descended the stairs from the sixth floor, entered the vestibule of the second floor lunchroom, and was noticed there by Baker.

I'm arguing that this story was an imperfect but sufficiently plausible way (for fifty years) to make him disappear from the front steps and place him significantly closer to the sixth floor sniper's nest.

--Tommy :sun

PS If you'll look at the photo in post number 870, this thread, you'll see that the vestibule door's window is pretty darn big. Seems to me that if the door was still open an inch or two (in the act of closing), it wouldn't have made much difference in Baker's ability to catch a glimpse of Oswald through that window.

Here's another photo of that vestibule door. I'm talking about the top photo. (The bottom photo shows the door at the other end of the lunchroom.) Note: Posting the photos here seems to "squash" everything vertically. To see the original, go to the History Matters website. Warren Commission Hearings. Volume XVII. Page 212. The window looks even bigger there.

WH_Vol17_0120a.jpg

If Oswald was on the front steps, then he was on the first floor at the time of the assassination, as he said he was.

The top photo appears to be a view from the top of the stairs as Truly and Baker would see the door as they arrived at the top step of the second floor.

Baker saw Oswald through that window - and it is my contention - and I believe it to be scientifically accurate, that if you open that door even a little bit, the window changes shape from the square to a funnel like rectangle shape - same length but thinner sideways - but if only open a few inches you can no longer see through the window.

But say the door was open a little bit - even almost closed when Baker saw Oswald if he went through it, - if it was a movie and you stopped the moving film and backed it up - and Oswald backed up and was going through the completely open door, Oswald would be on this side of the open door, and Truly would be at the top of the steps - and he couldn't help but see Oswald go through that door, and he didn't.

The second picture is what you see of the lunchroom from that lunchroom door - and is the scene of what Baker saw after his attention was drawn and he got closer and saw Oswald "walking away" from him through the completely closed door window - Oswald heading towards that Coke machine. Then Baker opened the door and ordered Oswald to stop, and Baker stayed where he was - standing at the open door with his gun drawn as Oswald turned around and walked back towards him. Truly, having noticed Baker wasn't behind him as he proceeded up the stairs to the third floor, turned around and came back and looked over Baker's shoulders and when Baker asked if this man worked here, Truly said yes, and they both moved on.

If this scenario is being written by the conspirators who killed Kennedy and were framing Oswald - now is the time to kill Oswald - but instead - Oswald bought his Coke and walked out the door he came in and went through the office and past Mrs. Reid, who had just arrived there, which she timed three times with David Belin, - two minutes after the last shot, thirty seconds after Baker and Truly were timed getting there.

Truly testified that after he left Baker on the front steps he didn't see him again to get their stories straight, and told the Warren Commission he didn't know that Baker first saw Oswald through the window - until weeks later, when its significance became apparent.

If you are arguing what Sean is saying - that all these little details were made up as part of a story to frame Oswald to hide the fact that he was on the front steps, well I want to know who made up this story? And why didn't they get it right, so that Oswald not only was closer to the back stairs, but that it was sufficiently plausible that he actually went through that door, came down the steps and did all the things they claim he did?

Even if Oswald is "Prayer Man," then that makes the second floor lunchroom encounter even more plausible than the Warren Report because it is photographic proof Oswald was on the first floor and had to go up the front steps in order for Baker - 90 seconds later - to see him through the door window, as Baker swore he did.

If those who claim the second floor lunchroom encounter was made up and everyone lied about it to hide a more damning truth, that truth can't be the fact that Oswald is "Prayer Man."

Whether Oswald is "Prayer Man" or not, I think that all of what we know indicates he was on the first or second floor at the time of the shooting and is not the Sixth Floor Sniper, did not kill JFK, did not hide the rifle and run down the stairs and go through that door.

And therefore, instead of chasing Ozzie the Rabbit - the Patsy, why aren't we trying to identify the real Sixth Floor Sniper, and figure out who he was and how he got there and got out of there clean?

Edited by William Kelly
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[...]

Because [the area between the self-closing windowed vestibule door and the lunchroom door] is so small, if Oswald had gone through [the windowed vestibule door], Baker wouldn't have seen him because by the time the door automatically closed, Oswald would have been out of the vestibule and in the lunchroom, as he was when Baker moved closer to the door and saw him a second time "walking away" in the lunchroom.

BK

Bill,

In his WC testimony, Baker said that the windowed vestibule door might still have been in the act of closing when he caught a glimpse of Oswald through its window.

If so, I guess the story would be that 1) Oswald ducked into the vestibule, 2) Truly hit the landing, 3) Oswald watched Truly start to go up the stairs to the third floor, 4) Oswald then started to leave through that windowed vestibule door, 5) Oswald heard Baker coming up the stairway, 6) Oswald ducked back into the vestibule, and 7) Baker caught a glimpse of Oswald through the vestibule door's window.

--Tommy :sun

Tommy, if you have read Roffman or my article on The Doors of Perception, or if you could go there and see for yourself - as the Secret Service did and the Warren Commission lawyers could have done, but instead called Truly back for a second sworn testimony at the Post Office Annex just across the plaza from the TSBD, and asked him only one question - does the 2nd floor lunchroom door that Baker saw Oswald through the window of - have an automatic closing device? And the answer was yes.

And if you took basic geometry in high school or if you draw a square on a piece of paper to represent the two by two foot square window of the door in question, and then move the right side towards you to represent the door opening or in the process of closing - you will see that basic geometry dictates that even if the door was open a few inches - the size of the window would decrease and you wouldn't be able to see anything through the window - therefore - the door had to be totally closed - slammed shut for Baker to see anything through that window.

So when Baker testified before the Warren Commission - do you think they they tried to get him and Truly to say that either one of them saw the door open, even just a little bit?

Or do you think they got Truly and Baker and Reid to totally lie an concoct the whole event?

I think Baker's repeated statements - including years later at the London trial - he made it very clear that the first time he saw Oswald was through the window of the door - a fleeting glance, and for him to have done that the door, by scientific certainty - had to be closed - and in the reenactment, they discovered that when someone went through that door, and made a left to go into the lunchroom, by the time the door was shut - the person who went through the door was out of view of the window.

David Belin pressed Truly on the matter - and went off the record more than once with both Baker and Truly and asked Truly on how come he didn't see Oswald go through the door as he should have if he had gone through the door before Baker saw him, - I think Belin asked him if he was looking at his shoes or not paying attention and tried to get something out of Truly that would explain why he didn't see Oswald go through that door as he should have - 20 feet in front of him.

And Baker stuck to his guns - saw him first through the window - the first thing out of his mouth at the London trial, but the defense attorney didn't follow up on it and instead brought up the man in the doorway instead, and then concentrated on Oswald's cool and calm attitude.

But the basic fact is that Baker could not have seen Oswald through the window of the door if the door was open at all. It had to be closed shut.

Sure, Baker said maybe I missed the door closing, but he didn't see it moving, the only thing he saw moving was the man on the other side of the window, and for him to have seen anything through the window the door had to be closed, which means that Oswald didn't go through it, and alas, there's another door on the other side, and that's the door Oswald actually leaves by.

So they were going to fit a round peg in a square hole - even though Truly didn't see Oswald go through the door, as he should have if he did, Baker only saw him through the closed door, Dougherty didn't see Oswald run past him on the fifth floor, as he should have, the secretaries didn't see anybody when they ran down the steps, as they should have seen Oswald or anyone if they were on the rickety old steps at the same time, and their boss didn't see anybody run past the fourth floor where she was standing by the steps.

So either all of these people just missed each other like a Keystone Cops comedy - or the more believable truth of the matter is that Baker saw Oswald through the window of the closed door as he slowly walked past on the way from the office to the lunchroom, just as he claimed during his interrogation.

I believe Baker saw Oswald through that window - and if that happened, then science and geometry dictate that the door must have been closed, and Oswald got to that location from the offices and not the stairs.

That's my take, and I've put a lot of time and effort into arriving at that conclusion, and the only way out is for Oswald to have ran even faster than 90 seconds past all those who we know in fact used those stairs and arrived beyond the door and closed it before Truly and Baker arrived and then walk in front of the window for Baker to see him.

You can believe that, or you can see that it is entirely more than likely that Oswald didn't come down those stairs or go through that door, but was where he said he was at the time of the shooting - on the first floor - and he went up the front steps and through the offices and Baker saw him through the window of the closed door as he waltzed past, cool and calm, not having shot and killed anyone or having run 300 feet down four flights of stairs and barely making it into the lunchroom without Truly seeing him and Baker just catching a glimpse of him through the window as the door closed.

Any theory as to what happened must take all the facts into consideration and not just the facts that support a particular theory.

If Baker saw Oswald through the door window, the door was shut, and if Baker told the Warren Commission that the door may have been closing, that's what they wanted to here, but the Secret Service and the Warren Commission lawyers who called Truly back to testify about the door, and Goldberg, the author of the Warren Report narrative on this part of the investigation, who had the FBI get additional sworn statements from both Truly and Baker on the eve of the release of their report, knew better.

Bill,

I'm not arguing that Oswald actually descended the stairs from the sixth floor, entered the vestibule of the second floor lunchroom, and was noticed there by Baker.

I'm arguing that this story was an imperfect but sufficiently plausible way (for fifty years) to make him disappear from the front steps and place him significantly closer to the sixth floor sniper's nest.

--Tommy :sun

PS If you'll look at the photo in post number 870, this thread, you'll see that the vestibule door's window is pretty darn big. Seems to me that if the door was still open an inch or two (in the act of closing), it wouldn't have made much difference in Baker's ability to catch a glimpse of Oswald through that window.

Here's another photo of that vestibule door. I'm talking about the top photo. (The bottom photo shows the door at the other end of the lunchroom.) Note: Posting the photos here seems to "squash" everything vertically. To see the original, go to the History Matters website. Warren Commission Hearings. Volume XVII. Page 212. The window looks even bigger there.

WH_Vol17_0120a.jpg

If Oswald was on the front steps, then he was on the first floor at the time of the assassination, as he said he was.

The top photo appears to be a view from the top of the back steps as Truly and Baker would see the door as they arrived at the top of the steps.

Baker saw Oswald through that window - and it is my contention - and I believe it to be scientifically accurate, that if you open that door even a little bit, the window changes shape from the square shape to a funnel like rectangle shape - same length but thinner sideways - but if only open a few inches you can no longer see through the window.

But say the door was open a little bit - even almost closed when Baker saw Oswald through it, - if it was a movie and you stopped the moving film and backed it up - and Oswald backed up and was going through the completely open door, Oswald would be on this side of the open door, and Truly would be at the top of the steps - and he couldn't help but see Oswald go through that door, and he didn't.

The second picture is what you see of the lunchroom from that door - and is the scene of what Baker saw after his attention was drawn and he got closer and saw Oswald "walking away" from him through the completely closed door window - Oswald heading towards that Coke machine. Then Baker opened the door and ordered Oswald to stop, and Baker stayed where he was - standing at the open door with his gun drawn as Oswald turned around and walked back towards him. Truly, having noticed Baker wasn't behind him as he proceeded up the stairs to the third floor, turned around and came back and looked over Baker's shoulders and when Baker asked if this man worked here, Truly said yes, and they both moved on.

If this scenario is being written by the conspirators who killed Kennedy and were framing Oswald - now is the time to kill Oswald - but instead - Oswald bought his Coke and walked out the door he came in and went through the office and past Mrs. Reid, who had just arrived there, which she timed three times with David Belin, - two minutes after the last shot, thirty seconds after Baker and Truly were timed getting there.

Truly testified that after he left Baker on the front steps he didn't see him again to get their stories straight, and told the Warren Commission he didn't know that Baker first saw Oswald through the window - until weeks later, when its significance became apparent.

If you are arguing what Sean is saying - that all these little details were made up as part of a story to frame Oswald to hide the fact that he was on the front steps, well I want to know who made up this story? And why didn't they get it right, so that Oswald not only was closer to the back stairs, but that it was sufficiently plausible that he actually went through that door, came down the steps and did all the things they claim he did?

Even if Oswald is "Prayer Man," then that makes the second floor lunchroom encounter even more plausible than the Warren Report because it is photographic proof Oswald was on the first floor and had to go up the front steps in order for Baker - 90 seconds later - to see him through the door window, as Baker swore he did.

If those who claim the second floor lunchroom encounter was made up and everyone lied about it to hide a more damning truth, that truth can't be the fact that Oswald is "Prayer Man."

Whether Oswald is "Prayer Man" or not, I think that all of what we know indicates he was on the first or second floor at the time of the shooting and is not the Sixth Floor Sniper, did not kill JFK, did not hide the rifle and run down the stairs and go through that door.

And therefore, instead of chasing Ozzie the Rabbit - the Patsy, why aren't we trying to identify the real Sixth Floor Sniper, and figure out who he was and how he got there and got out of there clean?

(red emphasis added by T. Graves)

Yes Bill, that's what I'm saying.

I don't know who fabricated the changing stories.

Sorry.

And it was sufficiently plausible.

For fifty years.

--Tommy :sun

PS Why didn't they make it sufficiently plausible that Oswald went through which door? And came down which steps?

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Well then, you have to answer my questions - who made up this story and how come they didn't get it right?

It wasn't sufficiently plausible to the Secret Service when they re-enacted it, and wasn't sufficiently plausible for the Warren Commission lawyers when they called Truly back to ask him if the door had an automatic closing device, and it wasn't sufficiently plausible to Goldberg who had the FBI get additional sworn statements from Truly and Baker on the night before they released the Warren Report, and it wasn't sufficiently plausible to Howard Roffman, a young college student who wrote all about it in "Presumed Guilty," and it wasn't sufficiently plausible to Sylvia Meagher or me or anyone who has looked at the situation even remotely.

It wasn't sufficiently plausible to the 80% of the people who don't believe the Warren Report.

If "Prayer Man" is Oswald, that doesn't prove the second floor encounter is fiction, as Sean contends, I think if Oswald is "Prayer Man" then that gives more weight to the second floor encounter, and Oswald's innocence.

And what if the whole second floor lunchroom encounter - that exonerates Oswald, was made up, and is one big lie? What are you going to do about it?

What can you do with it?

Where are you going to go with it?

Argue about it on Internet forums?

Is that the goal?

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Well then, you have to answer my questions - who made up this story and how come they didn't get it right?

It wasn't sufficiently plausible to the Secret Service when they re-enacted it, and wasn't sufficiently plausible for the Warren Commission lawyers when they called Truly back to ask him if the door had an automatic closing device, and it wasn't sufficiently plausible to Goldberg who had the FBI get additional sworn statements from Truly and Baker on the night before they released the Warren Report, and it wasn't sufficiently plausible to Howard Roffman, a young college student who wrote all about it in "Presumed Guilty," and it wasn't sufficiently plausible to Sylvia Meagher or me or anyone who has looked at the situation even remotely.

It wasn't sufficiently plausible to the 80% of the people who don't believe the Warren Report.

If "Prayer Man" is Oswald, that doesn't prove the second floor encounter is fiction, as Sean contends, I think if Oswald is "Prayer Man" then that gives more weight to the second floor encounter, and Oswald's innocence.

And what if the whole second floor lunchroom encounter - that exonerates Oswald, was made up, and is one big lie? What are you going to do about it?

What can you do with it?

Where are you going to go with it?

Argue about it on Internet forums?

Is that the goal?

I'm sorry you're so frustrated, Bill.

All I've been trying to do is show how the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter, whether it happened or whether it was just a fabricated story, did not necessarily exonerate Oswald. You think it obviously exonerates Oswald and therefore couldn't have been fabricated, because only idiotic bad guys would have been so stupid as to fabricate a story that actually exonerated Oswald. I'm saying it didn't necessarily exonerate Oswald, so it very well could have been fabricated by non-idiotic bad guys.

I'm finished arguing with you on this. My head is sore from beating it against the wall.

Sincerely,

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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The WC conveniently suppresses the fact that on the second floor landing there was a solid column (pillar) blocking part of the view from the stairway to the vestibule door (although visible in CE498 posted above). On the diagram of the 2nd floor in CE497 this column is not shown at all (should have been located a little southeast of camera position #'22 in that figure, and Baker apparently went straight through this 'invisible' column (pillar) on his way to the vestibule door:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0119b.htm

View from camera position #22

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/36/Photo_wcd496_0028.jpg

View from position#23 (vestibule door)

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/a/a7/Photo_wcd496_0029.jpg

Other photos from 2nd floor landing depicting column (pillar):

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/f/f5/Photo_wcd81-1_0143.jpg

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/a/ab/Photo_wcd81-1_0145.jpg

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/9/9a/Photo_wcd81-1_0151.jpg

Entrance to office space #27

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/e/ed/Photo_wcd496_0033.jpg

Why would Oswald have walked through the office area when he could have followed the corridor and perhaps visited the men's room?

Bjørn Gjerde

Edited by Bjørn Gjerde
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Okay Tommy, I got it, the second floor lunchroom encounter doesn't exonerate Oswald as all of the serious analysis conclude, and it could have been fabricated by some really stupid bad guys.

I'm working on something else that's very important at the moment, but I also think its important to look at this from every conceivable angle, and Sean and you and Robert and Richard and others have given me some new perspectives, but I'm trying to figure out how it really happened, and it only happened one way, and if something is fabricated, it didn't happen that way.

I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just not convinced that however much of a bad guy he was, Roy Truly didn't make up the encounter with Oswald, and neither did Baker or Reid, and if you want to move it from the second floor to the front door to satisfy a theory, go ahead and move it, that doesn't change my goals of identifying new evidence, documents and witnesses and putting in the last few missing pieces to the Dealey Plaza puzzle.

I consider what you and Sean and the others have to say about all this worthwhile and I take the time to read it and respond to it because I do, otherwise I wouldn't waste my time.

Now I am more frustrated by not being able to find a photo of the pay phone(s) or a diagram of the first floor of the TSBD that shows where it or they are located.

Was there one or more pay phones on the first floor?

Oswald knew where they were because he directed some reporters to them and Shelly said he last saw Oswald standing near the phone(s) as if he was waiting for a call.

Where were they and why isn't there any photos of them?

Edited by William Kelly
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Okay Tommy, I got it, the second floor lunchroom encounter doesn't exonerate Oswald as all of the serious analysis conclude, and it could have been fabricated by some really stupid bad guys.

I'm working on something else that's very important at the moment, but I also think its important to look at this from every conceivable angle, and Sean and you and Robert and Richard and others have given me some new perspectives, but I'm trying to figure out how it really happened, and it only happened one way, and if something is fabricated, it didn't happen that way.

I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just not convinced that however much of a bad guy he was, Roy Truly didn't make up the encounter with Oswald, and neither did Baker or Reid, and if you want to move it from the second floor to the front door to satisfy a theory, go ahead and move it, that doesn't change my goals of identifying new evidence, documents and witnesses and putting in the last few missing pieces to the Dealey Plaza puzzle.

I consider what you and Sean and the others have to say about all this worthwhile and I take the time to read it and respond to it because I do, otherwise I wouldn't waste my time.

Now I am more frustrated by not being able to find a photo of the pay phone(s) or a diagram of the first floor of the TSBD that shows where it or they are located.

Was there one or more pay phones on the first floor?

Oswald knew where they were because he directed some reporters to them and Shelly said he last saw Oswald standing near the phone(s) as if he was waiting for a call.

Where were they and why isn't there any photos of them?

Bill,

Given the fact that the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter doesn't necessarily exonerate Oswald, it could have been fabricated by some pretty smart bad guys.

I hope you find some photos of the TSBD "payphones." Maybe there weren't any "payphones" there of the sort we're used to, but instead just regular-looking phones for which you were supposed to give a dime to some secretary? Just an idea.

Maybe Buell Wesley Frazier would remember. Or Gary Mack.

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Question for you, Gary: who do you believe Prayer Man is?

Gary Mack has not responded.

Seems to me there's no hard evidence that Gary's job allows him to even consider the possibility that Lee Oswald was not the sixth floor shooter.

Gary Mack says he can think whatever he wants and that History has placed Oswald elsewhere, whether you agree with that or not.

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....

Now I am more frustrated by not being able to find a photo of the pay phone(s) or a diagram of the first floor of the TSBD that shows where it or they are located.

Was there one or more pay phones on the first floor?

Oswald knew where they were because he directed some reporters to them and Shelly said he last saw Oswald standing near the phone(s) as if he was waiting for a call.

Where were they and why isn't there any photos of them?

Bill,

In case you have not seen this,

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10755&relPageId=4

there is a section in the 1/29/64 investigation report by SA Roger Warner that mentions his interview with James Powell (Army Intelligence). Powell told Warner he entered the TSBD and observed Pierce Allman using a phone in the lobby of the building and that it was near a desk.

FWIW, I have seen two photos of the lobby and neither shows a phone, at least that I can detect. Perhaps there is an area of the lobby that is not visible in either photo.

I have to believe that Powell knew what the lobby was, and was not confusing it with the phone near the column in the middle of the first floor.

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Jeraldean Reid's 11/23 affidavit is an impressive document, for it manages with great economy to tick every box Roy Truly and the FBI so very badly needed ticked:

  1. Just as Jeraldean entered the office area, she noticed Oswald coming through the back door into the office area
  2. This back door was located near the lunchroom and the rear stairway
  3. The encounter was unmistakeably post-assassination because Jeraldean said something to Lee about the President's being shot
  4. Lee had a coke in his hand
  5. She saw Lee walk out of the office just after their paths had crossed.

The last item here--

7PkifYT.jpg

--is of particular note for it will become weirdly muddled in Jeraldean's WC testimony.

There, she and Belin will go on an elaborate and silly detour as to the possible routes Oswald might have taken just after passing Reid near her desk.

For some reason, Jeraldean now has to refrain from telling us authoritatively that Lee, having mumbled something, "walked on out of the office".

And yet she must take pains to eliminate the possibility that the door through which he walked on out of the office might have been the back door through which he had just come in:

Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald walk past you?
Mrs. REID. Yes; he did.
Mr. BELIN. Kept on walking in the same direction?
Mrs. REID. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How far did you see him go?
Mrs. REID. I didn't turn around to look. He went on straight, he did not go on past the back door because I was facing that way. What he did after that---
Mr. BELIN. But you know he did not go out the same back door he came in?
Mrs. REID. No; he did not.

But where exactly was Jeraldean so that she could rule the possibility out of Oswald's having left by the back door?

Let's look at the layout of the floor, with Oswald's alleged post-shooting route from the sixth floor drawn in:

UM53XQV.png

The natural assumption would be that Jeraldean was at her desk.

But she explicitly rules that idea out:

I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him."

Why did she pass her desk?

Where was she going?

Did she keep walking and leave the office area through the same back door which Oswald had just entered?

Did she perhaps want to recover from the shock of the shooting by making a beeline for the ladies' room?

wn6pKLc.jpg

But her own testimony rules all this out.

For she makes a point of keeping herself in the office space long enough to rule out the possibility that Oswald could have turned tail and gone out the back door at some point after Reid herself had left it.

Thus we are left with the very strange image of Jeraldean Reid standing frozen in space several feet away from her desk, facing resolutely west and not going anywhere.

Why is she fudging the issue of her actions after the Oswald exchange?

Because she needs to do two irreconcilable things:

a ) Be in the office for a long enough time to rule out Oswald's having exited the office via the back door

b ) Sustain the impression that she is herself perfectly positioned to exit the office by the back door.

The reason for b?

Geneva Hine, who is about to reenter the office--via the corridor and through the back door.

oOduejE.jpg

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From Gary Mack:

Cheap shot, Sean, cheap shot. I can think whatever I want. History has put Oswald elsewhere whether you agree with that or not.

As to your question, I think Prayer Man is NOT Lee Harvey Oswald. Clear enough?

Gary Mack

**

Gary, we already know you think Prayer Man is NOT Lee Harvey Oswald.

History has evidently placed you in a position where you are professionally compelled to rule that possibility out.

But in answer to your question: no, not clear enough.

Who do you think Prayer Man is?

Are you still, by process of elimination, backing the slender white male TSBD employee Bill Shelley?

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