Jump to content
The Education Forum

Recommended Posts

There is also the possibility the Sixth Floor sniper was a cop, as that would explain why he was in no hurry to leave and that the plan was to just blend in with those searching the building after it was sealed.

Hey Bill, just a theory but considering witness testimony of there being two men seen in the windows, and the reports of the "fake" SS agents in and around the building and the two unidentified "plain clothes" coming down the stairs. I'm thinking it was a classic sniper team. Shooter and Spotter. The Shooter hides the weapon and the spotter rearranges the boxes to resemble a fighting position and frame "the patsy". This gives them time to complete both actions and then head down the stairs. They split up, one goes out the back and one goes out the front. If they encounter anyone they can show their ID and blend in and walk away. Would you be suspicious if a you encountered a stranger and they flashed a badge and asked for a phone? Brilliant.

There is some detailed information about Secret Service sightings in Dealey Plaza and other locations in Dallas on 11/22/63 in a post by Steve Thomas.

Secret Service: On the Knoll and Beyond

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=12084

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 3.5k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Quote from Sean Murphy:

"•He subsequently noticed that Oswald was gone and, not realising that Oswald had actually been at the front entrance for the motorcade itself, erroneously assumed that he and the officer had seen him just as he was coming out to the front entrance."

As Truly was not on the front steps of the TSBD during the passing of the motorcade, what would make him think Oswald had not been on the steps the entire time?

Robert, the fact that no one else on the steps for the motorcade had noticed Oswald while JFK was passing the building.

Hey Sean, do you believe that, if anyone had actually seen Oswald himself in the front that they would've remained silent about such 'guilty knowledge'?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Quote from Sean Murphy:

"•He subsequently noticed that Oswald was gone and, not realising that Oswald had actually been at the front entrance for the motorcade itself, erroneously assumed that he and the officer had seen him just as he was coming out to the front entrance."

As Truly was not on the front steps of the TSBD during the passing of the motorcade, what would make him think Oswald had not been on the steps the entire time?

Robert, the fact that no one else on the steps for the motorcade had noticed Oswald while JFK was passing the building.

Hey Sean, do you believe that, if anyone had actually seen Oswald himself in the front that they would've remained silent about such 'guilty knowledge'?

I don't believe a single soul noticed Oswald taking his place back in the shadows just as the motorcade was arriving--their attention was riveted elsewhere.

I believe Oswald was noticed, and remembered, by at least two people just after the shooting: Roy Truly and Marrion Baker. And that they told DPD and FBI about this within minutes (Truly) and hours (Baker) of the shooting.

I also believe Buell Wesley Frazier, and possible Joe Molina, noticed Oswald there but were put through intense pressure by the authorities (i.e. on pain of being charged with the capital offence of co-conspiracy in the murder of the President) to keep quiet about this.

I believe Buell Wesley Frazier knows that Lee didn't shoot President Kennedy.

Edited by Sean Murphy
Link to post
Share on other sites

It has been suggested to me that the height of man in the doorway - aka "Prayer Man," can be determined if the height of the door is known. This could eliminate Oswald or it could keep him in the running, though not positively confirm it.

If the man is Oswald, he shouldn't have the coke bottle in his hand until after he buys it.

In the C/D film the man in the door way is there when Baker rushes past him immediately after the assassination.

If Oswald, he would then have to go back inside, up the stairs just inside the door and through the offices to the vestibule of the Lunchroom where he is seen by Baker through the window of the closed door. He then has the encounter with Baker and Truly and then buys his coke, leaving the same way he came in.

Then, if this film sequence is three to five minutes after the last shot, you see the same man walking down the steps - does he have the coke now?

▶ L.H. Oswald Leaving TSBD November 22 1963? - YouTube

Hey Bill,

I don't know if there is sufficient detail (information) within this low quality frame to determine who the guy is. However, is it possible that Oswald bought the coke prior to going outside? That he was doing that during the shooting? What if he was (inside) buying a coke at about the time of the last shot, then strolled out front to see what the commotion was as he drank it? By the time he got there it was pretty much over and Baker was running for the front stairs. It was a warm day, Oswald was drinking his coke quickly and headed back inside to dispose of the bottle in the lunch room once he had finished it? Does anyone know if there was a "bottle redemption" value back then? If so, was there a place for the empty bottles? I know there weren't any "recycle" bins back then, but perhaps there was a place for bottles that had a redemption value?

Link to post
Share on other sites

It has been suggested to me that the height of man in the doorway - aka "Prayer Man," can be determined if the height of the door is known. This could eliminate Oswald or it could keep him in the running, though not positively confirm it.

If the man is Oswald, he shouldn't have the coke bottle in his hand until after he buys it.

In the C/D film the man in the door way is there when Baker rushes past him immediately after the assassination.

If Oswald, he would then have to go back inside, up the stairs just inside the door and through the offices to the vestibule of the Lunchroom where he is seen by Baker through the window of the closed door. He then has the encounter with Baker and Truly and then buys his coke, leaving the same way he came in.

Then, if this film sequence is three to five minutes after the last shot, you see the same man walking down the steps - does he have the coke now?

▶ L.H. Oswald Leaving TSBD November 22 1963? - YouTube

Hey Bill,

I don't know if there is sufficient detail (information) within this low quality frame to determine who the guy is. However, is it possible that Oswald bought the coke prior to going outside? That he was doing that during the shooting? What if he was (inside) buying a coke at about the time of the last shot, then strolled out front to see what the commotion was as he drank it? By the time he got there it was pretty much over and Baker was running for the front stairs. It was a warm day, Oswald was drinking his coke quickly and headed back inside to dispose of the bottle in the lunch room once he had finished it? Does anyone know if there was a "bottle redemption" value back then? If so, was there a place for the empty bottles? I know there weren't any "recycle" bins back then, but perhaps there was a place for bottles that had a redemption value?

Hi Greg,

You are correct. Coke bottles were "deposit" bottles back in 1963 (and long after).

One of the lunchroom photos shows a wooden crate on the floor near the Coke machine just about full of empties.

And regarding Chris's question about 2 cokes, in an earlier post, I mentioned that many Coke machines were still dispensing the 6.5 ounce bottles in 1963. Two of those gives you about the same amount of product as one twelve ounce can does today.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Quote from Sean Murphy:

"•He subsequently noticed that Oswald was gone and, not realising that Oswald had actually been at the front entrance for the motorcade itself, erroneously assumed that he and the officer had seen him just as he was coming out to the front entrance."

As Truly was not on the front steps of the TSBD during the passing of the motorcade, what would make him think Oswald had not been on the steps the entire time?

Robert, the fact that no one else on the steps for the motorcade had noticed Oswald while JFK was passing the building.

Hey Sean, do you believe that, if anyone had actually seen Oswald himself in the front that they would've remained silent about such 'guilty knowledge'?

I don't believe a single soul noticed Oswald taking his place back in the shadows just as the motorcade was arriving--their attention was riveted elsewhere.

I believe Oswald was noticed, and remembered, by at least two people just after the shooting: Roy Truly and Marrion Baker. And that they told DPD and FBI about this within minutes (Truly) and hours (Baker) of the shooting.

I also believe Buell Wesley Frazier, and possible Joe Molina, noticed Oswald there but were put through intense pressure by the authorities (i.e. on pain of being charged with the capital offence of co-conspiracy in the murder of the President) to keep quiet about this.

I believe Buell Wesley Frazier knows that Lee didn't shoot President Kennedy.

Sean, in the Darnell crop posted earlier in this thread, Frazier has his head turned towards the right. PM/Oswald is well within his field of vision.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Greg,

You are correct. Coke bottles were "deposit" bottles back in 1963 (and long after).

One of the lunchroom photos shows a wooden crate on the floor near the Coke machine just about full of empties.

And regarding Chris's question about 2 cokes, in an earlier post, I mentioned that many Coke machines were still dispensing the 6.5 ounce bottles in 1963. Two of those gives you about the same amount of product as one twelve ounce can does today.

Richard, Greg,

There was a Dr. Pepper machine located right by the rear stairs, right beside which was a crate for Pepper and Coca Cola empties. Apparently one did not have to go back up to the second floor to dispose of an empty Coca Cola bottle that had earlier been dispensed from the second-floor lunchroom.

YJLkzwp.jpg

I've speculated that the "storage room on the first floor"/ "small storage room on the ground floor" where Ochus Campbell is quoted as locating on 11/22 a post-shooting Oswald sighting is the small storage room just off the front lobby.

However it's also worth keeping in mind the possibility that Campbell was talking about the small alcove in the photo above.

Did Oswald, after the Baker-Truly encounter at the front entrance, go to the rear of the first floor and dispose of his coke bottle there before leaving the building?

**

Interesting in this light that two Canadian journalists visited Dallas a few days after the assassination and were given to understand by a member or members of DPD that Oswald had been seen "sulking around" the first floor just after the shooting.

From the Toronto Daily Star 11/28/63 (click to enlarge):

PYztm1w.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Quote from Sean Murphy:

"•He subsequently noticed that Oswald was gone and, not realising that Oswald had actually been at the front entrance for the motorcade itself, erroneously assumed that he and the officer had seen him just as he was coming out to the front entrance."

As Truly was not on the front steps of the TSBD during the passing of the motorcade, what would make him think Oswald had not been on the steps the entire time?

Robert, the fact that no one else on the steps for the motorcade had noticed Oswald while JFK was passing the building.

Hey Sean, do you believe that, if anyone had actually seen Oswald himself in the front that they would've remained silent about such 'guilty knowledge'?

I don't believe a single soul noticed Oswald taking his place back in the shadows just as the motorcade was arriving--their attention was riveted elsewhere.

I believe Oswald was noticed, and remembered, by at least two people just after the shooting: Roy Truly and Marrion Baker. And that they told DPD and FBI about this within minutes (Truly) and hours (Baker) of the shooting.

I also believe Buell Wesley Frazier, and possible Joe Molina, noticed Oswald there but were put through intense pressure by the authorities (i.e. on pain of being charged with the capital offence of co-conspiracy in the murder of the President) to keep quiet about this.

I believe Buell Wesley Frazier knows that Lee didn't shoot President Kennedy.

Sean, in the Darnell crop posted earlier in this thread, Frazier has his head turned towards the right. PM/Oswald is well within his field of vision.

I agree, Richard: it seems a stretch that BWF will not notice Prayer Man there.

VVzSbvJ.jpg

Highly, highly significant IMO that BWF was unable to identify Prayer Man as someone other than Lee when Gary Mack showed him the image.

Link to post
Share on other sites

When evaluating who could have seen Prayer Man on the top of the steps, one has to take into consideration the fact that the front door opened toward the west side wall/corner of the entrance, so that Prayer Man would have been more or less ‘trapped’ in this corner behind the opening/opened door when people started to rush into the lobby of TSBD after the shooting. It appears from the Darnell frames that Baker is heading for the east side of (the rail dividing) the steps, and Prayer Man would therefore not have been directly in Baker’s path as he entered the front door (unless Prayer Man managed to move around the opening front door while Baker ran up the front steps). If Prayer Man remained in his position for a while, few people would have noticed him behind this door as they entered the building, particularly since they had become quite upset by the shooting.

Similarly, if Prayer Man/Oswald went out the front door while people were watching the motorcade, he would probably have had to open the door just a little bit in order to get out behind them without being noticed.

Bjørn Gjerde

Link to post
Share on other sites

When evaluating who could have seen Prayer Man on the top of the steps, one has to take into consideration the fact that the front door opened toward the west side wall/corner of the entrance, so that Prayer Man would have been more or less ‘trapped’ in this corner behind the opening/opened door when people started to rush into the lobby of TSBD after the shooting. It appears from the Darnell frames that Baker is heading for the east side of (the rail dividing) the steps, and Prayer Man would therefore not have been directly in Baker’s path as he entered the front door (unless Prayer Man managed to move around the opening front door while Baker ran up the front steps). If Prayer Man remained in his position for a while, few people would have noticed him behind this door as they entered the building, particularly since they had become quite upset by the shooting.

Similarly, if Prayer Man/Oswald went out the front door while people were watching the motorcade, he would probably have had to open the door just a little bit in order to get out behind them without being noticed.

Bjørn Gjerde

This brings up another issue ... what is the width of the top step/porch in front of the door?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Richard,

As seen from inside the lobby, the width of the top step doesn't seem to be much more than the width of the front door.

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/d/d9/Photo_wcd496_0015.jpg

I get the same impression from the Skaggs and Willis photos showing the door open that you posted in this thread:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20513

Bjørn Gjerde

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not a photogrammetrist but there are a few clues that may help measure the doors in the second picture Bjorn posted:

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/d/d9/Photo_wcd496_0015.jpg

1) The size of the linoleum tiles

2) the picture on the wall - 30 yrs. ago I was a framer - I'd guess that was an 11 x 14 frame with an 8 x 10 matted photo.

3) the height of the heater

Of course perspective must be taken into account.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The floor plan with scale bar suggests that the top step is about 5 feet deep (from door to edge of step) and about 12 feet wide (east-west). The door seems to be about 4 feet wide.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=7

This floor plan suggests that the front door could open both outwards and inwards, but from the pictures seen in the other tread (

http://educationforu...showtopic=20513 ) it seems the door could only open outwards.

Bjørn Gjerde

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...