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As we have seen Jeraldean Reid's story of reentering the TSBD and arriving up in the second-floor office area some two minutes after the shots doesn't add up.

It is contradicted by Geneva Hine's description of the empty office area she found herself reentering very shortly after the shooting.

**

Comparison of Reid's story with that of a colleague, Sarah Stanton, is instructive.

oBZr6NK.jpg

The detail about the Southwestern Publishing Company--she went into it, rather than just knocking futilely on the locked door as Hine did--helps us plot Stanton's movement in terms of the Hine timeline in a way that allows their two stories to harmonise:

AMGhYEH.jpg

It would seem that, by the time Stanton (light blue) came off the passenger elevator and went down the east-west office corridor, Hine had already tried to gain entry to the Lyons & Carnahan and South-Western Publishing offices.

Hine says she saw/heard a female employee on the phone behind the locked door of the South-Western office:

presumably this woman was off the phone and had unlocked the door by the time Stanton arrived.

What's crucial here is that Stanton says she went to the ladies' room after this:

this visit explains her delay in reentering the office area in which Hine is now located.

Reid's story, by contrast, leaves completely hanging the question of where she went after she and Oswald had crossed paths.

Did Reid remain in the office?

Not possible, or the re-entering Hine would definitely have noticed her and pumped her for information about what had just happened outside.

Did Reid pay a visit to the ladies' room?

Not possible, or she would have been noticed by Hine who was herself in the corridor.

Unless Reid climbed into the dumbwaiter in the office area and hid there for several minutes, there appears to be only one place she can have gone in order to miss Hine:

the second-floor lunchroom.

80xhJnH.jpg

Which is surely, and for pretty obvious reasons, a non-starter.

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The 2-minute result of the time trial Jeraldean Reid did for the Warren Commission on March 20th 1964 was a foregone conclusion:

it had already been carefully arrived at months earlier by the FBI.

We know this from item #6 in an 11/30/63 document researcher Colin Crow has drawn attention to:

BXBi9uB.jpg

th1cdtB.jpg

Ae98cbA.jpg

One is struck first of all by the perfect fit between the numbers in time trial #6 and key numbers in the WC testimony of

  • Baker-Truly (the farcical Z313+90 seconds 'minimum' for lunchroom incident)
  • Baker (30 seconds for duration of lunchroom incident)

and

  • Reid (office area Oswald encounter at Z313+2mins).

Over and above this though is the observation that the above document charts a most curious exercise.

The FBI supposedly by this stage already knows full well from Truly and Baker and Reid that Oswald's only possible escape route was that outlined in time trial #6 above.

Yet here they are trying out lots of alternative routes by which the guilty Oswald could have made it down from the sixth floor and left the building by the front entrance.

In fully half of these time trials, the second-floor lunchroom does not even feature!

Perhaps they are conscientiously covering possible escape routes by an alternative shooter to or a confederate of Oswald?

Not possible: not a single exit-by-back-door or exit-by-side-door scenario is even time-trialed--proving that Oswald's possible movements, and his alone, are being considered.

**

The final note in the document does however make clear that the strong frontrunner in terms of Oswald escape routes is #6:

  • descent by rear stairway to second floor
  • lunchroom incident
  • through office area
  • down front stairs
  • out front entrance.

Remarkable that even now, days after the assassination and long after the lunchroom incident has supposedly become a fixed matter of record thanks to the detailed information given by Truly, the FBI are still hedging their bets by stating that escape route #6 is only "possibly" the route taken by Oswald--and by spreading their bets 50/50 across a range of lunchroom/non-lunchroom scenarios.

It's as if they know only too well just how problematic and open to challenge the whole self-corroborating Truly-Reid story-complex is.

And just how nervous they are as to whether Marrion Baker is going to play ball with the lunchroom charade.

Edited by Sean Murphy
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The 2-minute result of the time trial Jeraldean Reid did for the Warren Commission on March 20th 1964 was a foregone conclusion:

it had already been carefully arrived at months earlier by the FBI.

We know this from item #6 in an 11/30/63 document researcher Colin Crow has drawn attention to:

BXBi9uB.jpg

th1cdtB.jpg

Ae98cbA.jpg

One is struck first of all by the perfect fit between the numbers in time trial #6 and key numbers in the WC testimony of

  • Baker-Truly (the farcical Z313+90 seconds 'minimum' for lunchroom incident)
  • Baker (30 seconds for duration of lunchroom incident)

and

  • Reid (office area Oswald encounter at Z313+2mins).

Over and above this though is the observation that the above document charts a most curious exercise.

The FBI supposedly by this stage already knows full well from Truly and Baker and Reid that Oswald's only possible escape route was that outlined in time trial #6 above.

Yet here they are trying out lots of alternative routes by which the guilty Oswald could have made it down from the sixth floor and left the building by the front entrance.

In fully half of these time trials, the second-floor lunchroom does not even feature!

Perhaps they are conscientiously covering possible escape routes by an alternative shooter to or a confederate of Oswald?

Not possible: not a single exit-by-back-door or exit-by-side-door scenario is even time-trialed--proving that Oswald's possible movements, and his alone, are being considered.

**

The final note in the document does however make clear that the strong frontrunner in terms of Oswald escape routes is #6:

  • descent by rear stairway to second floor
  • lunchroom incident
  • through office area
  • down front stairs
  • out front entrance.

Remarkable that even now, days after the assassination and long after the lunchroom incident has supposedly become a fixed matter of record thanks to the detailed information given by Truly, the FBI are still hedging their bets by stating that escape route #6 is only "possibly" the route taken by Oswald--and by spreading their bets 50/50 across a range of lunchroom/non-lunchroom scenarios.

It's as if they know only too well just how problematic and open to challenge the whole self-corroborating Truly-Reid story-complex is.

And just how nervous they are as to whether Marrion Baker is going to play ball with the lunchroom charade.

Sean,

Good post!

Please freshen my memory-- on what real or imaginary grounds did the bad guys base their belief that Oswald had left the building from the front door?

Oswald's Alibi-Per-Fritz: "Second Floor Coke When Officer Came In To First Floor Had lunch Out with Bill Shelley In Front"

Mrs. Reid: Saw Oswald on the second floor about two minutes after the assassination, walking in the general direction of the front stairs.

Anything else?

Thanks,

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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The floor plan with scale bar suggests that the top step is about 5 feet deep (from door to edge of step) and about 12 feet wide (east-west). The door seems to be about 4 feet wide.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=7

This floor plan suggests that the front door could open both outwards and inwards, but from the pictures seen in the other tread (

http://educationforu...showtopic=20513 ) it seems the door could only open outwards.

Bjørn Gjerde

Bjørn,

I believe the graphic you posted of the first floor is distorted lengthwise. The length of the TSBD appears greater than the width. It should be square.

I think the floor plan measures 100 x 100.

This makes the porch appear larger than it actually is. I would guess it is closer to 3' than 5'.

If there are any forum posters in the Dallas area, this could quickly be resolved with a tape measure.

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Richard,

Yes, the floor plan seems to be distorted in that print with the wrong lenght:width ratio. It may be more correct in CE 362.

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=138626

So the porch may well have been narrower than 5 feet and thus about the same width as the front door.

Anyway, the essential fact relating to the discussion in this tread is that it would have been somewhat difficult for Prayer Man to maneuver himself rapidly around the door when this was being opened towards him as people started to rush into the building. Hence, it is not surprising that no one seem to have noticed this person.

Bjørn Gjerde

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Richard,

Yes, the floor plan seems to be distorted in that print with the wrong lenght:width ratio. It may be more correct in CE 362.

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=138626

So the porch may well have been narrower than 5 feet and thus about the same width as the front door.

Anyway, the essential fact relating to the discussion in this tread is that it would have been somewhat difficult for Prayer Man to maneuver himself rapidly around the door when this was being opened towards him as people started to rush into the building. Hence, it is not surprising that no one seem to have noticed this person.

Bjørn Gjerde

No doubt the employees minds were preoccupied with shots being fired as they went back inside the building. Couple that with the fact that LHO was a recently hired, quiet guy who did not draw attention to himself.

Regarding the porch width, the bolded portion of your quote above may give us a good clue. The porch appears narrow in the vestibule photo, but it would make sense to have the door width no greater than the depth of the porch. They may have been nearly the same.

Commercial door widths were commonly 36 to 44".

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In this forum thread, once again, we're treated to people using their vivid imaginations to stamp a specific identity on a fuzzy and very indistinct human being seen in a low-quality film/photo.

How in the world can anyone positively say WHO "prayer man" is here? It's impossible.

But when I look at these toggling frames from Mal Couch's film, the thing I'm most fascinated by (other than Officer Baker running for the TSBD entrance) is the man in the foreground (wearing the hat). He appears to be tilting his head upward to look at the upper floors of the Depository.

Hmmmm....I wonder why he'd be doing that? Any ideas?

prayermandesh12fps100c4k1m.gif

Heck, I don't know David...let's ask him.

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...being seen in a low-quality film.

Agreed. Where's the highest quality copy of this that we can find?

Magnetic Video tape tends to begin deteriorate 10-15 years after it's been recorded. I was recently reviewing the Hollywood movie "Executive Action" (released in 1973) and it struck me that the clips of actual video used in that film seemed to be of much higher quality that the extant films we have to work with.

A lot of people find these videos on youtube which is one of the worst places to look. Youtube re-encodes everything that is uploaded in the upload process. It's not a "lossless" re-encode. I'd rather have access to the file that was uploaded to youtube than the "ease" of playback afforded by that service. The versions uploaded to the "Sixth Floor Museum" site are postage stamp size and are also not of much use to researchers.

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Still fascinated with one of Baker's versions of his encounter with Oswald:

"The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do."

C'mon, Mr. Baker, is it Door No. 1, Door No. 2 or Door No. 3 ??

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Still fascinated with one of Baker's versions of his encounter with Oswald:

"The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do."

C'mon, Mr. Baker, is it Door No. 1, Door No. 2 or Door No. 3 ??

Robert... can you please source this statement for me? When/Where was this said and to whom?

Thanks

DJ

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Still fascinated with one of Baker's versions of his encounter with Oswald:

"The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do."

C'mon, Mr. Baker, is it Door No. 1, Door No. 2 or Door No. 3 ??

Robert... can you please source this statement for me? When/Where was this said and to whom?

Thanks

DJ

It appears to be an oral statement made by Baker, "many years" after the assassination. I found it in a long article about the acoustical evidence by a "John C. Bowles."

http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles6.html

Here's the pertinent but undated "statement," with appropriate introduction:

CHAPTER SIX

REFLECTIONS

Probably the most informed and the most ignored authorities on what happened and in what order in Dealey Plaza are the motorcade motor jockeys. They have been interviewed uncounted times by many people, ranging from official investigators to insufferable quacks. Again, they are referred to in this text by a "letter" name, hopeful that it will discourage further contacts, however well-intentioned. While their recollections are presented in the first person, their comments should not be taken as unalterable quotes. Too many years have passed for them to remember with unimpeachable certainty what they might have said earlier and what they say now. Accordingly, what they say here should be considered for the meaning rather than exactness. [emphasis added by T. Graves]

[...]

OFFICER "E" [obviously Marion Baker]

It had been a long escort. We had a lot of people all the way. There were no problems, just a heavy crowd and a lot of yelling and cheering, and the motors were getting hot. When you follow the lead, you do a lot of starting and stopping, trying to hold an interval. I was glad it was almost over.

The crowd was real heavy down on the end of the downtown area, but just past Dealey Plaza it would open up and we would be on the freeway and just a few minutes from the Trade Mart. The front of the motorcade started blocking up in the crowd in those last turns coming off Main and turning onto Elm. Back on Houston, where we were, we were just about stopped and moving real slow when we could move.

A little past half way down Houston (between Main and Elm), I heard the first shot. I could tell it came from somewhere in front of me, and high. As I looked up I noticed all the pigeons flushed off the top of the building on the corner ahead of me. And in the same period I heard the second shot, and then the third one. I couldn't see just where the shots came from but I knew they were from a high-powered rifle. I hunt a lot, and had just got back from hunting. There was no mistaking that; there were three shots, that's for sure. Though I didn't see exactly where the shots came from, I knew in my own mind they probably came from the corner building as the sound was right and because of the pigeons. So I headed there, got off my motor and entered the building (the Texas School Book Depository). It took a while because of the crowd; they had started moving in every direction.

The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do.

The investigator from Washington contacted me for my recollection of what happened, but I guess they weren't interested in what I said.

_________________________________________________

What's interesting to me is the fact that the sentences in bold tend to substantiate Sean Murphy's theory.

Simply put, Baker suggests here that he and Truly realized that the elevators were stuck on the fifth floor only after they had encountered Oswald. From the Warren Report, we already know that Truly and Baker were on the first floor when they tried to get one of the freight elevators to come down, but couldn't, so went up the stairs instead.

http://books.google.com/books?id=TpzGMAmH2LEC&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=truly+baker+%22first+floor%22+elevator&source=bl&ots=ijwVDtVD1A&sig=TxFR8rL7BKAO1oeBGOgb5LFnv7I&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RpZpUp_mDYzyigKz0YDQBA&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=truly%20baker%20%22first%20floor%22%20elevator&f=false

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Much appreciated Thomas.... and this by default helps to support Arnold's statement about seeing Oswald near the front entrance shortly before the motorcade arrived...

Which also helps support the notion that MRS REID sees LEE and not HARVEY... leaving the TSBD....

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?
Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell?
Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.

One of the three tramps photos shows what appears to be OSWALD near the entrance of the TSBD talking to a policeman(?) he is in long sleeves (far right)

OswaldatTSBD-maybe_zps122b5c5c.jpg

I happen to believe the lunchroom scene NEVER OCCURRED and was created by Truly/Baker and Fritz to negate Arnold's statement about seeing Oswald right about the time of the shooting.

The very FIRST LINE of the FIRST PAGE OF FRITZ's NOTES starts off with

"claims 2nd floor Coke when

off came in"

Who starts off by writing on the RIGHT HAND SIDE of a page and working back to the left? And don't you suppose OSWALD would know it was TRULY who was with the "off" who came in? No mention of that at all...

Not sure at all which question this is an answer to, if it was made up, or what order the questions where asked.....

fritz1-5-handwrittingonly_zps37f7a6ad.jp

Edited by David Josephs
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[...]

One of the three tramps photos shows what appears to be OSWALD near the entrance of the TSBD talking to a policeman(?) he is in long sleeves (far right)

OswaldatTSBD-maybe_zps122b5c5c.jpg

[...]

Joseph,

I'm not particularly "into" the Harvey and Lee scenario, nor do I really want to go down that rabbit hole. But I do have a question.

What time were the three tramps paraded through Dealy Plaza? Around 2:30?

So if the Harvey and Lee Theory is correct, that would make it "Harvey" talking to the policeman-type in the background of that Three Tramps photo, right?

Here's the photo from jfkassassination[.]net. The person we're talking about is in the background on the far right.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/infojfk/jfk6/6figIV51p267.jpg

--Tommy :sun

PS I hope this thread doesn't devolve into a Harvey and Lee debate.

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Yes, HARVEY ... and it's too bad you aren't "into" that scenario Thomas. It remains the only plausible answer to many. many questions (i.e. why does HOOVER need to send agents to Stripling Jr High in Ft Worth and Pfisterer's in NOLA within 12 hours of Oswald being charged with JFK's murder - 11:30pm 11/22 -, and to the Red Cross within days for the 1956-62 original docs... any reason the 7 year old 1956 JR High Records, the 1956-58 employement records and the 1956-62 Red Cross Dependency Discharge records of the 1963 accused assassin would be of ANY VALUE to the prosecution? Have you EVER seen a letter TO Oswald in RUSSIA from his mother or brother? He has 1956 W-2's but not the stack of letters from his mother and brother....)

I'd suggest reviewing CE1961(military records of Oswald in the USMC) followed by the FELDE statement in ce1962.... which contradicts the Marine's info... or the handwritten notes by HARVEY upon his return to the USA detailiing where he was and when... they agree with FELDE and NOT the LEE history we get in the USMC docs...

One of the greatest failings imo of our research community is that we KNOW the FBI created/altered/destroyed evidence... yet we have trouble believing that Hoover was aware of these two men and knew exactly where to go to make their original records disappear (from 5-10 years before, NYC was 1952). Add to this the pile of evidence from every corner of the world and from each and every year of his existence that supports there being 2 men who became 1 set of historical documents .... and you have one of the most important safeguards that we'd NEVER know who LHO was...

You think Hoover made sure to confiscate James Earl Ray's Jr High School records on the day following the killing? What could possbily prompt Hoover to do this in Oswald's case ??

===============

With regards to the timing of the tramp photos....

http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10310

According to these statements the amount of time between the shots and the moving of these men thru DP was not almost 2 hours.... but instead not very long after the assassination.

I've looked at the shadows in other images and the ones in the tramps photos actaully do appear to be only slightly longer in relation to the subject's body.

If you have better info on time stamping the photos... please share...

At this point in time I think LEE is preparing to assist or actually do the shooting in the killing of TIPPIT... LEE, the bigger man, MAY have been the owner of the medium sized jacket that was left to be found....... but that's just a thought. LEE had already left when this photo of HARVEY - if it is - was taken. I believe it was taken around 12:40-12:50. please correct me if I'm wrong.

All this is speculation anyway... for if it was much later, that couldn't be HARVEY... the man arrested at the theater.

DJ

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Still fascinated with one of Baker's versions of his encounter with Oswald:

"The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do."

C'mon, Mr. Baker, is it Door No. 1, Door No. 2 or Door No. 3 ??

Robert... can you please source this statement for me? When/Where was this said and to whom?

Thanks

DJ

Joseph,

It appears to be an oral statement made by Baker, "many years" after the assassination. I found it in a long article about the acoustical evidence by a "John C. Bowles."

http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles6.html

Here's the pertinent but undated "statement," with appropriate introduction:

CHAPTER SIX

REFLECTIONS

Probably the most informed and the most ignored authorities on what happened and in what order in Dealey Plaza are the motorcade motor jockeys. They have been interviewed uncounted times by many people, ranging from official investigators to insufferable quacks. Again, they are referred to in this text by a "letter" name, hopeful that it will discourage further contacts, however well-intentioned. While their recollections are presented in the first person, their comments should not be taken as unalterable quotes. Too many years have passed for them to remember with unimpeachable certainty what they might have said earlier and what they say now. Accordingly, what they say here should be considered for the meaning rather than exactness. [emphasis added by T. Graves]

[...]

OFFICER "E" [obviously Marion Baker] --

It had been a long escort. We had a lot of people all the way. There were no problems, just a heavy crowd and a lot of yelling and cheering, and the motors were getting hot. When you follow the lead, you do a lot of starting and stopping, trying to hold an interval. I was glad it was almost over.

The crowd was real heavy down on the end of the downtown area, but just past Dealey Plaza it would open up and we would be on the freeway and just a few minutes from the Trade Mart. The front of the motorcade started blocking up in the crowd in those last turns coming off Main and turning onto Elm. Back on Houston, where we were, we were just about stopped and moving real slow when we could move.

A little past half way down Houston (between Main and Elm), I heard the first shot. I could tell it came from somewhere in front of me, and high. As I looked up I noticed all the pigeons flushed off the top of the building on the corner ahead of me. And in the same period I heard the second shot, and then the third one. I couldn't see just where the shots came from but I knew they were from a high-powered rifle. I hunt a lot, and had just got back from hunting. There was no mistaking that; there were three shots, that's for sure. Though I didn't see exactly where the shots came from, I knew in my own mind they probably came from the corner building as the sound was right and because of the pigeons. So I headed there, got off my motor and entered the building (the Texas School Book Depository). It took a while because of the crowd; they had started moving in every direction.

The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do.

The investigator from Washington contacted me for my recollection of what happened, but I guess they weren't interested in what I said.

_________________________________________________

What's interesting to me is that the above sentences in bold tend to substantiate Sean Murphy's theory as it is developed on this thread.

Simply put, Baker suggests above that he and Truly realized only after they had encountered Oswald that the elevators were stuck on the fifth floor, and would not come down to them.

From the Warren Report, we already know that Truly and Baker were on the first floor when they tried to get one of the freight elevators to come down, but couldn't, and went up the stairs instead.

http://books.google.com/books?id=TpzGMAmH2LEC&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=truly+baker+%22first+floor%22+elevator&source=bl&ots=ijwVDtVD1A&sig=TxFR8rL7BKAO1oeBGOgb5LFnv7I&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RpZpUp_mDYzyigKz0YDQBA&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=truly%20baker%20%22first%20floor%22%20elevator&f=false

--Tommy :sun

bumped in an attempt to get this thread back on topic

Edited by Thomas Graves
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