Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Thomas Graves]

Hey there Bob...

Z157 is where the film is spliced - again - .....and imo could represent the change from 16 to 48fps filming with the flip of a switch... (if not at 133)

These are supposedly concurrent frames.... which we know is not possible... looks eeriely like the 301/2/3 Greer head turn which was proven to be impossible and from 50% to 80% faster than it should be...

50-80% is 4 to 6 more frames that should be there that are not...

Getting back to the thread - I wonder how the addition and understanding of "Harvey and Lee" to this equation changes things....

The woman Reid sees was not HARVEY... it is very possible that the Oswald being discussed is LEE and not the man in the brown shirt with the button down collar that was taken off and replaced in his room.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?

Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?

Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.

Can we also try to rememebr that Oswald was a PATSY - he did not shoot anyone that day... A plan is not devised to create a perfect patsy and then allow that person to go around messing things up....

He gets from the TSBD to the Theater virtually undetected.. as planned.

Whoever kills Tippit (LEE?) leads the police to the Theater 15-20 minutes AFTER Harvey is already there, proceeds to the balcony and is ultimately led out the back/alley door.

But it would be a kick in the A$$ if we could place him on the landing or just inside the building (C.Arnold) between 12:25 and 12:35....

David,

The woman Reid saw was not Harvey? One would certainly hope not.

Regardless, shouldn't this be on a "Harvey and Lee" thread?

--Tommy

[David Josephs]

David,

The woman Reid saw was not Harvey? One would certainly hope not.

Regardless, shouldn't this be on a "Harvey and Lee" thread?

Sorry... got to fix that....

and no Tommy... IMO H&L needs to be understood and accepted as fact just like conspiracy is. If we neglect to include H&L in the scenario, we get results that dont tell the entire story.

If H&L stays off by itself, it becomes very hard to incorporate the ramifications into our analysis.

We don't have discussions any longer as to whether there was a conspiracy or cover-up or whether Oswald was the assassin... these concepts are understood.

I think it not only FAIR but NECESSARY that we include H&L as part of our accepted knowledge base. I'm doing a very in-depth analysis of the book...

that H&L is still a debated topic is akin to saying the CIA did not bother Garrison... there is simply too much evidence to the contrary.

So, what happens to this thread when we KNOW there is a H&L?

It begins to make some sense... Witnesses in all locations are telling the truth when they claim to have seen Oswald... although it is not possible for him to be in 2 places or more, at once.

TS White see an OSWALD in a car with Carl Mather's license plates.. AFTER the arrest at the theater.

Others see Oswald leaving the TSBD in a variety of manners

Oswald(s) meeting the description leave breadcrumbs in the months leading up to Nov.

So Tommy... what I suggest is that you read up on the H&L threads as well as visit harveyandlee.net and we can hash it out on the H&L threads... but from what I've learned, H&L must be considered when offering ANY scenario of occurances in Dallas that day.

DJ

[Thomas Graves]

David,

The woman Reid saw was not Harvey? One would certainly hope not.

Regardless, shouldn't this be on a "Harvey and Lee" thread?

Sorry... got to fix that....

and no Tommy... IMO H&L needs to be understood and accepted as fact just like conspiracy is. If we neglect to include H&L in the scenario, we get results that dont tell the entire story.

If H&L stays off by itself, it becomes very hard to incorporate the ramifications into our analysis.

We don't have discussions any longer as to whether there was a conspiracy or cover-up or whether Oswald was the assassin... these concepts are understood.

I think it not only FAIR but NECESSARY that we include H&L as part of our accepted knowledge base. I'm doing a very in-depth analysis of the book...

that H&L is still a debated topic is akin to saying the CIA did not bother Garrison... there is simply too much evidence to the contrary.

So, what happens to this thread when we KNOW there is a H&L?

It begins to make some sense... Witnesses in all locations are telling the truth when they claim to have seen Oswald... although it is not possible for him to be in 2 places or more, at once.

TS White see an OSWALD in a car with Carl Mather's license plates.. AFTER the arrest at the theater.

Others see Oswald leaving the TSBD in a variety of manners

Oswald(s) meeting the description leave breadcrumbs in the months leading up to Nov.

So Tommy... what I suggest is that you read up on the H&L threads as well as visit harveyandlee.net and we can hash it out on the H&L threads... but from what I've learned, H&L must be considered when offering ANY scenario of occurances in Dallas that day.

DJ

Have it your way, David.

R.I.P., "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" thread.

It was great while it lasted!

--Tommy

Edited November 14, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[David Josephs]

No need to get your panties all in a bunch Tommy... If reading up on H&L and putting them into this threads context is too much for you... fine.

"OSWALD" leaving the TSBD includes a discussion of either/both men.

If you want to discuss the merits of H&L, then sure... another thread.

But I still don't think it right to EXCLUDE them from the discussion... just cause you're not up to speed on them.

Someone 5'11" 165lbs around 30 sounds much more like LEE than the small HARVEY.

We can talk about Oswald leaving the TSBD in a variety of contexts and POVs... one does not supercede the other...

You still have a white shirted OSWALD leaving past Mrs Reid...

TWO Oswalds showing up at the theater

and sightings of Oswald after he was arrested...

ALL related to his leaving the TSBD at some point.... if you don't want to differentiate between H&L that's up to you...

yet any conversation about what and where OSWALD did and went really must include consideration of H&L and its reality...

You have anything specific you wanted to add that this discussion is keeping you from posting ??

[Sean Murphy]

Yet another important archival discovery from Richard Gilbride over at Reopen Kennedy Case

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t516-the-mystery-of-the-west-elevator#5134

This text bears very close reading.

(My emphases in underlined red below.)

March 25, 1964

MEMORANDUM

TO: Messrs. Ball, Belin, Craig

FROM: Norman Redlich

SUBJECT: The Mystery of the West Elevator

This memorandum results from a discussion between Mr. Belin and myself on March 24, following Roy Truly's testimony.

Roy Truly has testified that when he and Patrolman Baker ran to the rear of the first floor, neither elevator was there. Truly pressed the button for the west elevator and shouted up the shaft asking that the elevator be released. It was necessary to do this since the elevator would not work if the gate was open. Once the gate was closed the elevator would come if the button was pressed. Truly did not try to get the east elevator, because this operates only by hand and can be run only by a person who is in it.

Truly claims that he looked up the shaft and saw that both elevators were together on the same floor.

As part of this picture we should also remember that approximately 15 minutes before the assassination Jarman and Norman took the west elevator up to the fifth floor.

Truly and Baker started climbing the stairs no more than two or three minutes after the assassination. (Mr. Belin timed it at less than two minutes.) At each landing Truly and Baker looked to see whether an elevator was present and they did not see one. They certainly would have noticed the west elevator because this was most directly in line with their vision at each landing.

It was only when they reached the fifth floor that they saw an elevator, but, surprisingly enough, it was the east elevator which they saw. The west elevator was not present on the fifth floor where Truly thought he had seen it from below, and where it could have been expected to be found since Jarman and Norman had taken it there to have their lunch.

-2-

Truly testified further that he and Baker took the east elevator to the seventh floor. The west elevator was not on the seventh floor when they reached that floor. He cannot say that the west elevator was not on the sixth floor at this time.

Truly and Baker then looked around the roof and took the east elevator back down from the seventh floor. On the way down he noticed that the west elevator was on the fifth floor again.

There are several alternative explanations for the movements of the west elevator.

First, let us assume that Truly was correct in his first observation that the east and west elevators were both on the fifth floors of approximately two minutes after the assassination. This means that by the time Truly and Baker reached the fifth floor, it was gone. We know that someone would have had to close the gate during this period, because Truly was unable to get the elevator by pressing the button when he was on the first floor. This person then might have taken the elevator up the sixth floor while Truly and Baker were running up the stairs. At this moment, however, we have Jarman, Williams and Norman who say that they didn't hear any elevator. Moreover, they have never admitted that anyone else was on the floor.

It is also possible that someone got on the elevator on the fifth floor at this time and headed down while Truly and Baker were running up the stairs. Here again, Jarman, Norman, and Williams didn't hear anyone and it is quite unlikely that Truly and Baker would not have noticed the elevator moving as they reached each landing.

While it is possible, therefore, that a worker moved the west elevator either up or down from the fifth floor during this period, we don't know the name of such a worker and we have the problem of Jarman, Williams and Norman who have to be questioned again as to whether they heard anyone on the floor and whether they heard the elevator move.

The second possible assumption is that the elevator was not on the fifth floor at all, but was on the sixth floor with the gate open at the time that Truly rang for it on the first floor. This would mean that someone on the sixth floor would have had to close the gate and take the

-3-

elevator down-- either directly to the fifth floor where Truly saw it after he was on the roof, or to some lower floor and then back up to the fifth floor. In either case, it would mean that someone got on the west elevator on the sixth floor just a very short time after Oswald left the floor via the stairway. Significantly, none of the investigations appears to have turned up anyone who admits to being on the west elevator at this time.

Truly thinks that Dougherty was working there at this time. I know that Messrs. Ball and Belin plan to question Dougherty, who would have to explain why he was up there working so soon after the shots were fired. A previous memorandum on Dougherty, written by Mr. Eisenberg, raises questions about Dougherty which should be looked into on the next trip to Dallas.

If Oswald was not acting alone, it is very likely that an employee of the TSBD building was his accomplice. It is also possible that an employee of the TSBD might have information and for some reason be afraid to come forward. Through persistent questioning on such matters as the elevator locations we might be able to locate the person or persons who may know more than they are telling.

I have discussed this matter with Mr. Belin and he shares my feeling that this matter will be the subject of questioning when Messrs. Ball and Belin travel to Dallas again.

**

I believe this document confirms that Jack Dougherty took the rear stairs down from the fifth floor, not the west elevator.

How was the massive problem of the west elevator's movements, as flagged in this memorandum, solved by the WC?

By getting Dougherty to testify--quite falsely--that he was the person responsible for the movements of the west elevator.

The reality, as I have already argued, is that the west elevator was used by Truly and Baker to ascend from the first floor to the fifth floor.

They never went up the rear stairway.

They never set foot on the east elevator on the fifth floor.

While they were ascending the building in the west elevator, the assassin(s) came down in the east elevator.

[Thomas Graves]

Yet another important archival discovery from Richard Gilbride over at Reopen Kennedy Case

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t516-the-mystery-of-the-west-elevator#5134

This text bears very close reading.

(My emphases in underlined red below.)

March 25, 1964

MEMORANDUM

TO: Messrs. Ball, Belin, Craig

FROM: Norman Redlich

SUBJECT: The Mystery of the West Elevator

This memorandum results from a discussion between Mr. Belin and myself on March 24, following Roy Truly's testimony.

Roy Truly has testified that when he and Patrolman Baker ran to the rear of the first floor, neither elevator was there. Truly pressed the button for the west elevator and shouted up the shaft asking that the elevator be released. It was necessary to do this since the elevator would not work if the gate was open. Once the gate was closed the elevator would come if the button was pressed. Truly did not try to get the east elevator, because this operates only by hand and can be run only by a person who is in it.

Truly claims that he looked up the shaft and saw that both elevators were together on the same floor.

As part of this picture we should also remember that approximately 15 minutes before the assassination Jarman and Norman took the west elevator up to the fifth floor.

Truly and Baker started climbing the stairs no more than two or three minutes after the assassination. (Mr. Belin timed it at less than two minutes.) At each landing Truly and Baker looked to see whether an elevator was present and they did not see one. They certainly would have noticed the west elevator because this was most directly in line with their vision at each landing.

It was only when they reached the fifth floor that they saw an elevator, but, surprisingly enough, it was the east elevator which they saw. The west elevator was not present on the fifth floor where Truly thought he had seen it from below, and where it could have been expected to be found since Jarman and Norman had taken it there to have their lunch.

-2-

Truly testified further that he and Baker took the east elevator to the seventh floor. The west elevator was not on the seventh floor when they reached that floor. He cannot say that the west elevator was not on the sixth floor at this time.

Truly and Baker then looked around the roof and took the east elevator back down from the seventh floor. On the way down he noticed that the west elevator was on the fifth floor again.

There are several alternative explanations for the movements of the west elevator.

First, let us assume that Truly was correct in his first observation that the east and west elevators were both on the fifth floors of approximately two minutes after the assassination. This means that by the time Truly and Baker reached the fifth floor, it was gone. We know that someone would have had to close the gate during this period, because Truly was unable to get the elevator by pressing the button when he was on the first floor. This person then might have taken the elevator up the sixth floor while Truly and Baker were running up the stairs. At this moment, however, we have Jarman, Williams and Norman who say that they didn't hear any elevator. Moreover, they have never admitted that anyone else was on the floor.

It is also possible that someone got on the elevator on the fifth floor at this time and headed down while Truly and Baker were running up the stairs. Here again, Jarman, Norman, and Williams didn't hear anyone and it is quite unlikely that Truly and Baker would not have noticed the elevator moving as they reached each landing.

While it is possible, therefore, that a worker moved the west elevator either up or down from the fifth floor during this period, we don't know the name of such a worker and we have the problem of Jarman, Williams and Norman who have to be questioned again as to whether they heard anyone on the floor and whether they heard the elevator move.

The second possible assumption is that the elevator was not on the fifth floor at all, but was on the sixth floor with the gate open at the time that Truly rang for it on the first floor. This would mean that someone on the sixth floor would have had to close the gate and take the

-3-

elevator down-- either directly to the fifth floor where Truly saw it after he was on the roof, or to some lower floor and then back up to the fifth floor. In either case, it would mean that someone got on the west elevator on the sixth floor just a very short time after Oswald left the floor via the stairway. Significantly, none of the investigations appears to have turned up anyone who admits to being on the west elevator at this time.

Truly thinks that Dougherty was working there at this time. I know that Messrs. Ball and Belin plan to question Dougherty, who would have to explain why he was up there working so soon after the shots were fired. A previous memorandum on Dougherty, written by Mr. Eisenberg, raises questions about Dougherty which should be looked into on the next trip to Dallas.

If Oswald was not acting alone, it is very likely that an employee of the TSBD building was his accomplice. It is also possible that an employee of the TSBD might have information and for some reason be afraid to come forward. Through persistent questioning on such matters as the elevator locations we might be able to locate the person or persons who may know more than they are telling.

I have discussed this matter with Mr. Belin and he shares my feeling that this matter will be the subject of questioning when Messrs. Ball and Belin travel to Dallas again.

**

I believe this document confirms that Jack Dougherty took the rear stairs down from the fifth floor, not the west elevator.

How was the massive problem of the west elevator's movements, as flagged in this memorandum, solved by the WC?

By getting Dougherty to testify--quite falsely--that he was the person responsible for the movements of the west elevator.

The reality, as I have already argued, is that the west elevator was used by Truly and Baker to ascend from the first floor to the fifth floor.

They never went up the rear stairway.

They never set foot on the east elevator on the fifth floor.

While they were ascending the building in the west elevator, the assassin(s) came down in the east elevator.

Sean,

So the only question now is, was it Harvey or Lee?

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Excellent post.)

--Tommy

[Bjørn Gjerde]

Sean said:

"The reality, as I have already argued, is that the west elevator was used by Truly and Baker to ascend from the first floor to the fifth floor.

They never went up the rear stairway.

They never set foot on the east elevator on the fifth floor.

While they were ascending the building in the west elevator, the assassin(s) came down in the east elevator."

I believe Baker and Truly did ascend the stairway, initally to the 4th floor, where they met a man, and then one more floor, before taking the elevator from the 5th to the 7th floor.

Thus, in his WC testimony, Baker actually states that they ascended only one or two floors in the elevator after their encounter with a man (not Oswald on the 2nd floor as they later claimed), which fits with a 4th floor encounter as Baker originally described in his affidavit.

Mr. BAKER - I immediately turned and went on, started on, up the stairways.
Mr. BELIN - All right. After going up the stairways, do you know what numbered floor it was---I will ask you this, did you take the stairway all the way to the top?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir; we caught that elevator, it seemed like we went up either one or two floors, and Mr. Truly said "Let's take the elevator, here it is."
Mr. BELIN - Did you take an east or west elevator?
Mr. BAKER - We took the east elevator.

And I don't believe there were any assassins in TSBD that day, only someone pretending they were shooting from that 6th floor window and leaving some empty cartridges behind.

BGjerde

:

[Richard Hocking]

Sean said:

"The reality, as I have already argued, is that the west elevator was used by Truly and Baker to ascend from the first floor to the fifth floor.

They never went up the rear stairway.

They never set foot on the east elevator on the fifth floor.

While they were ascending the building in the west elevator, the assassin(s) came down in the east elevator."

I believe Baker and Truly did ascend the stairway, initally to the 4th floor, where they met a man, and then one more floor, before taking the elevator from the 5th to the 7th floor.

Thus, in his WC testimony, Baker actually states that they ascended only one or two floors in the elevator after their encounter with a man (not Oswald on the 2nd floor as they later claimed), which fits with a 4th floor encounter as Baker originally described in his affidavit.

Mr. BAKER - I immediately turned and went on, started on, up the stairways.

Mr. BELIN - All right. After going up the stairways, do you know what numbered floor it was---I will ask you this, did you take the stairway all the way to the top?

Mr. BAKER - No, sir; we caught that elevator, it seemed like we went up either one or two floors, and Mr. Truly said "Let's take the elevator, here it is."

Mr. BELIN - Did you take an east or west elevator?

Mr. BAKER - We took the east elevator.

And I don't believe there were any assassins in TSBD that day, only someone pretending they were shooting from that 6th floor window and leaving some empty cartridges behind.

BGjerde

:

Bjørn,

I have an analogous view regarding the activities on the 6th floor preceding and during the shooting sequence. The witness testimony supports the notion that these men in the windows wanted to be seen by the crowd on the streets below. The mechanics wanted witnesses to identify the SE corner window on the 6th floor as the location of the sniper. The purpose of their antics was to attract the attention of observers below; and in the process distract their focus away from the real shooters.

The reality is trained sniper teams do not advertise their selected firing locations. Nor would an expert sniper stick the barrel of his rifle out of a window to be noted by a large crowd of witnesses.

I do not, however, rule out one or more shots from another location in the TSBD, probably from a window on the West side of the building. One key to a West window shooter would be the actions of the signal-men standing by the Stemmons Freeway sign.

Shooters concealed in the Dal-Tex building, behind the fence on the knoll, or on the South knoll would have relatively unimpeded views of the Limo as it traveled down Houston, turned, and advanced into the Kill zone on Elm. They could watch the progress of the target and anticipate the timing of their shots. Not so, for a shooter in the West window of the TSBD, who would not see the Limo until it had actually cleared the corner of the building. The notification of a West window shooter is solved by the pumping of the umbrella by TUM, signaling the Limo's immediate approach. The raised clenched fist of DCM was an additional sign to the shooters (and the driver) that the Limo would be slowing/stopping at the pre-designated position.

The angle of a shot from the West Window also fits with the bullet trajectory causing Connally's wounds.

Moving on to the discussion of the departure of the men from the 6th/5th floor, and the use of the freight elevators:

This topic is joined at the hip with the activity of Jack Dougherty. Jack is notable for showing no interest in viewing the motorcade, preferring instead to end his lunch break early and get back to work. To say this arouses suspicion would be an understatement.

Jack is stationed "10 feet from the elevator" on the 5th floor when the shots are fired. In Sean's scenario, Dougherty then takes the stairs down to the first floor, while the shooters take the East elevator down. Would it not be equally plausible for Jack to take the men down in the East elevator himself? It was, after all, an old-fashioned freight elevator that required someone to operate the lever from the inside, something that may not have been first-hand knowledge to men who were unfamiliar with the building.

Overall, I think there is more to be taken into account concerning the elevators, and I will hopefully be raising some issues in future posts, but I will leave it here for now.

[David Josephs]

Excellent find Sean... Redlich is a gem and may be the only honest "lawyer" in the WC bunch....

I want to add something to your circle of review...

Inspector J Herbert Sawyer who arrived at the TSBD not long after Baker ran in... (as he tells it not long after DECKER orders his men to investigate which, according to the transcripts, is 12:30)

They never ask who this man was... or why he is on the elevator, whether he came down and left the elevator or went up with Sawyer (which I don't think makes sense)

So who was riding the FRONT elevator down to the first floor at 12:37 ?? Just like the Overpass/RRyard the WC did not care.

Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.
Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.
Mr. BELIN. To the right?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Sawyer's testimony about WHAT he and his men do on the ??th floor is classic... These are the only other police in TSBD other than Baker at this point... right ??

If anyone is moving things from one floor to the other it would be these men.

Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down?
Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there.
Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to?
Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

The # of references to the 5th floor is overwhelming really.... the # of men who repeatedly place the evidence on the 5th and even 4th floors cannot be overlooked...

Mr. HAYGOOD. I was on the sixth floor when the shells were found. I was still on the sixth when they found the rifle on the fifth.
Mr. BELIN. On the fifth?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Sixth floor, rather, I am sorry.

[Bjørn Gjerde]

The front passenger elevator only went to the fourth.

BGjerde

[David Josephs]

The front passenger elevator only went to the fourth.

BGjerde

Exactly Bjorn....

So Sawyer and 2(?) men go to the 4th floor, first running into a man getting OFF the elevator at 12:34 that they neglect to bother to question, they "look around" for a couple minutes and SAWYER returns back down to the front... we are never sure of who went with Sawyer or what they did after Sawyer leaves them.

This constitutes the start of the manhunt for the shooter....?

While Baker/Truly are working their way to the roof....

We repeatedly hear how items from the 4th or 5th floors were brought to the 6th to be "found".

Do you give any credibility to the notion that LEE and HARVEY were both in DP and LEE helped confuse those seeing "Oswald" and where, tocreate conflict with witness testimony and thereby discredit it.

I only ask since if there was only one OSWALD in DP - explaining the conflicting sightings gets very difficult and needs to be attributed to witness mistakes...

Wouldn't the notion of creating confusion with the witnesses be a KEY element of the conspiracy... as it has been all along with the various sightings and physical evidence of other Oswalds creating an evidence trail?

[Sean Murphy]

Yet another important archival discovery from Richard Gilbride over at Reopen Kennedy Case

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t516-the-mystery-of-the-west-elevator#5134

This text bears very close reading.

(My emphases in underlined red below.)

March 25, 1964

MEMORANDUM

TO: Messrs. Ball, Belin, Craig

FROM: Norman Redlich

SUBJECT: The Mystery of the West Elevator

This memorandum results from a discussion between Mr. Belin and myself on March 24, following Roy Truly's testimony.

Roy Truly has testified that when he and Patrolman Baker ran to the rear of the first floor, neither elevator was there. Truly pressed the button for the west elevator and shouted up the shaft asking that the elevator be released. It was necessary to do this since the elevator would not work if the gate was open. Once the gate was closed the elevator would come if the button was pressed. Truly did not try to get the east elevator, because this operates only by hand and can be run only by a person who is in it.

Truly claims that he looked up the shaft and saw that both elevators were together on the same floor.

As part of this picture we should also remember that approximately 15 minutes before the assassination Jarman and Norman took the west elevator up to the fifth floor.

Truly and Baker started climbing the stairs no more than two or three minutes after the assassination. (Mr. Belin timed it at less than two minutes.) At each landing Truly and Baker looked to see whether an elevator was present and they did not see one. They certainly would have noticed the west elevator because this was most directly in line with their vision at each landing.

It was only when they reached the fifth floor that they saw an elevator, but, surprisingly enough, it was the east elevator which they saw. The west elevator was not present on the fifth floor where Truly thought he had seen it from below, and where it could have been expected to be found since Jarman and Norman had taken it there to have their lunch.

-2-

Truly testified further that he and Baker took the east elevator to the seventh floor. The west elevator was not on the seventh floor when they reached that floor. He cannot say that the west elevator was not on the sixth floor at this time.

Truly and Baker then looked around the roof and took the east elevator back down from the seventh floor. On the way down he noticed that the west elevator was on the fifth floor again.

There are several alternative explanations for the movements of the west elevator.

First, let us assume that Truly was correct in his first observation that the east and west elevators were both on the fifth floors of approximately two minutes after the assassination. This means that by the time Truly and Baker reached the fifth floor, it was gone. We know that someone would have had to close the gate during this period, because Truly was unable to get the elevator by pressing the button when he was on the first floor. This person then might have taken the elevator up the sixth floor while Truly and Baker were running up the stairs. At this moment, however, we have Jarman, Williams and Norman who say that they didn't hear any elevator. Moreover, they have never admitted that anyone else was on the floor.

It is also possible that someone got on the elevator on the fifth floor at this time and headed down while Truly and Baker were running up the stairs. Here again, Jarman, Norman, and Williams didn't hear anyone and it is quite unlikely that Truly and Baker would not have noticed the elevator moving as they reached each landing.

While it is possible, therefore, that a worker moved the west elevator either up or down from the fifth floor during this period, we don't know the name of such a worker and we have the problem of Jarman, Williams and Norman who have to be questioned again as to whether they heard anyone on the floor and whether they heard the elevator move.

The second possible assumption is that the elevator was not on the fifth floor at all, but was on the sixth floor with the gate open at the time that Truly rang for it on the first floor. This would mean that someone on the sixth floor would have had to close the gate and take the

-3-

elevator down-- either directly to the fifth floor where Truly saw it after he was on the roof, or to some lower floor and then back up to the fifth floor. In either case, it would mean that someone got on the west elevator on the sixth floor just a very short time after Oswald left the floor via the stairway. Significantly, none of the investigations appears to have turned up anyone who admits to being on the west elevator at this time.

Truly thinks that Dougherty was working there at this time. I know that Messrs. Ball and Belin plan to question Dougherty, who would have to explain why he was up there working so soon after the shots were fired. A previous memorandum on Dougherty, written by Mr. Eisenberg, raises questions about Dougherty which should be looked into on the next trip to Dallas.

If Oswald was not acting alone, it is very likely that an employee of the TSBD building was his accomplice. It is also possible that an employee of the TSBD might have information and for some reason be afraid to come forward. Through persistent questioning on such matters as the elevator locations we might be able to locate the person or persons who may know more than they are telling.

I have discussed this matter with Mr. Belin and he shares my feeling that this matter will be the subject of questioning when Messrs. Ball and Belin travel to Dallas again.

**

Why is Redlich's memo is so revealing?

1. Redlich writes that "it is possible... that a worker moved the west elevator either up or down from the fifth floor" while Baker and Truly were ascending by the stairway.

2. Redlich then notes that "we don't know the name of any such worker" and that "none of the investigations appears to have turned up anyone who admits to being on the west elevator at this time".

3. Yet Roy Truly, just the day before (March 24), has offered the name of just such an employee: Jack Dougherty.

4. Perhaps Redlich is unaware of or has forgotten Truly's mention of Dougherty? No, for Redlich himself writes: "Truly thinks that Dougherty was working there at this time. I know that Messrs. Ball and Belin plan to question Dougherty, who would have to explain why he was up there working so soon after the shots were fired".

5. So why is Redlich ignoring Truly's solution? Why is he still treating the movement of the west elevator as a total riddle? Why isn't he simply recommending that Dougherty, as a matter of priority, be asked to confirm that it was indeed he who used the west elevator?

6. We are surely compelled to conclude that Redlich has knowledge that Dougherty has already ruled himself out as the person who took the west elevator off the fifth floor.

[Thomas Graves]

Yet another important archival discovery from Richard Gilbride over at Reopen Kennedy Case

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t516-the-mystery-of-the-west-elevator#5134

This text bears very close reading.

(My emphases in underlined red below.)

March 25, 1964

MEMORANDUM

TO: Messrs. Ball, Belin, Craig

FROM: Norman Redlich

SUBJECT: The Mystery of the West Elevator

This memorandum results from a discussion between Mr. Belin and myself on March 24, following Roy Truly's testimony.

Roy Truly has testified that when he and Patrolman Baker ran to the rear of the first floor, neither elevator was there. Truly pressed the button for the west elevator and shouted up the shaft asking that the elevator be released. It was necessary to do this since the elevator would not work if the gate was open. Once the gate was closed the elevator would come if the button was pressed. Truly did not try to get the east elevator, because this operates only by hand and can be run only by a person who is in it.

Truly claims that he looked up the shaft and saw that both elevators were together on the same floor.

As part of this picture we should also remember that approximately 15 minutes before the assassination Jarman and Norman took the west elevator up to the fifth floor.

Truly and Baker started climbing the stairs no more than two or three minutes after the assassination. (Mr. Belin timed it at less than two minutes.) At each landing Truly and Baker looked to see whether an elevator was present and they did not see one. They certainly would have noticed the west elevator because this was most directly in line with their vision at each landing.

It was only when they reached the fifth floor that they saw an elevator, but, surprisingly enough, it was the east elevator which they saw. The west elevator was not present on the fifth floor where Truly thought he had seen it from below, and where it could have been expected to be found since Jarman and Norman had taken it there to have their lunch.

-2-

Truly testified further that he and Baker took the east elevator to the seventh floor. The west elevator was not on the seventh floor when they reached that floor. He cannot say that the west elevator was not on the sixth floor at this time.

Truly and Baker then looked around the roof and took the east elevator back down from the seventh floor. On the way down he noticed that the west elevator was on the fifth floor again.

There are several alternative explanations for the movements of the west elevator.

First, let us assume that Truly was correct in his first observation that the east and west elevators were both on the fifth floors of approximately two minutes after the assassination. This means that by the time Truly and Baker reached the fifth floor, it was gone. We know that someone would have had to close the gate during this period, because Truly was unable to get the elevator by pressing the button when he was on the first floor. This person then might have taken the elevator up the sixth floor while Truly and Baker were running up the stairs. At this moment, however, we have Jarman, Williams and Norman who say that they didn't hear any elevator. Moreover, they have never admitted that anyone else was on the floor.

It is also possible that someone got on the elevator on the fifth floor at this time and headed down while Truly and Baker were running up the stairs. Here again, Jarman, Norman, and Williams didn't hear anyone and it is quite unlikely that Truly and Baker would not have noticed the elevator moving as they reached each landing.

While it is possible, therefore, that a worker moved the west elevator either up or down from the fifth floor during this period, we don't know the name of such a worker and we have the problem of Jarman, Williams and Norman who have to be questioned again as to whether they heard anyone on the floor and whether they heard the elevator move.

The second possible assumption is that the elevator was not on the fifth floor at all, but was on the sixth floor with the gate open at the time that Truly rang for it on the first floor. This would mean that someone on the sixth floor would have had to close the gate and take the

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elevator down-- either directly to the fifth floor where Truly saw it after he was on the roof, or to some lower floor and then back up to the fifth floor. In either case, it would mean that someone got on the west elevator on the sixth floor just a very short time after Oswald left the floor via the stairway. Significantly, none of the investigations appears to have turned up anyone who admits to being on the west elevator at this time.

Truly thinks that Dougherty was working there at this time. I know that Messrs. Ball and Belin plan to question Dougherty, who would have to explain why he was up there working so soon after the shots were fired. A previous memorandum on Dougherty, written by Mr. Eisenberg, raises questions about Dougherty which should be looked into on the next trip to Dallas.

If Oswald was not acting alone, it is very likely that an employee of the TSBD building was his accomplice. It is also possible that an employee of the TSBD might have information and for some reason be afraid to come forward. Through persistent questioning on such matters as the elevator locations we might be able to locate the person or persons who may know more than they are telling.

I have discussed this matter with Mr. Belin and he shares my feeling that this matter will be the subject of questioning when Messrs. Ball and Belin travel to Dallas again.

**

Why is Redlich's memo so revealing?

1. Redlich writes that "it is possible... that a worker moved the west elevator either up or down from the fifth floor" while Baker and Truly were ascending by the stairway.

2. Redlich then notes that "we don't know the name of any such worker" and that "none of the investigations appears to have turned up anyone who admits to being on the west elevator at this time".

3. Yet Roy Truly, just the day before (March 24), has offered the name of just such an employee: Jack Dougherty.

4. Perhaps Redlich is unaware of or has forgotten Truly's mention of Dougherty? No, for Redlich himself writes: "Truly thinks that Dougherty was working there at this time. I know that Messrs. Ball and Belin plan to question Dougherty, who would have to explain why he was up there working so soon after the shots were fired".

5. So why is Redlich ignoring Truly's solution? Why is he still treating the movement of the west elevator as a total riddle? Why isn't he simply recommending that Dougherty, as a matter of priority, be asked to confirm that it was indeed he who used the west elevator?

6. We are surely compelled to conclude that Redlich has knowledge that Dougherty has already ruled himself out as the person who took the west elevator off the fifth floor.

Excellent points, Sean.

You seem to be saying that Redlich knew that Dougherty couldn't have taken the west freight elevator to the first floor at that time (right after the shots) because Truly said that, although that elevator wasn't on the fifth floor when he and Baker were climbing the stairs on their way to the roof, he had seen it on the fifth floor again when he and Baker were taking the east elevator down from the roof.

Question: Couldn't Dougherty have been riding down in the west freight elevator from the fifth to the first floor while Truly and Baker were ascending the stairs, and then couldn't somebody else have taken it from the first floor back to the fifth floor in time for Truly and Baker to find it there as they were coming down from the roof?

Am I missing something here?

OK. Thinking out loud here. I guess the problem would be timing, wouldn't it.

What Dougherty said suggests that he took that elevator down right after he heard a shot (he said he thought it was a backfire), but Truly said he looked up the shaft and saw both elevators "stuck" on the fifth floor (I'm guessing) about 60 to 90 seconds after the shots. Hmmm. I'm starting to see your point. Looks like Dougherty was either wrong about taking that elevator down so soon after the shots, or he was lying and didn't take that elevator down at all, but walked down the stairs to the first floor, instead. I don't suppose Dougherty could have taken the elevator down when he said he did and then someone else could have taken it back up to the fifth floor before Truly looked up the shaft?

Nah. That elevator probably traveled too slowly for that scenario to have happened.

Hmmmm....

From the Warren Commission Testimony of Jack Edwin Dougherty:

[...]

Mr. BALL - Tell me this---when you heard that explosion or whatever it was--- that loud noise, where were you on the fifth floor-tell me exactly where you were?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was about 10 feet from the west elevator---the west side of the elevator.

Mr. BALL - That's the elevator that uses the push button; is that right?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - And what were you doing?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I was getting some stock.

Mr. BALL - And what did you do THEN?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I came on back downstairs.

Mr. BALL - How did you come downstairs?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I used that push button elevator on the west side.

Mr. BALL - Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I didn't hear anybody yell.

Mr. BALL - Or, did you see Mr. Truly?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, when the FBI men---I imagine it was who it was---he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and Just started looking for him, and .by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gun and shells.

[The next part is very interesting:]

Mr. BALL - When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found the shotgun and shells?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir; and I found out later he was on the FOURTH floor, which I didn't find.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see a gun around there?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir; I sure didn't.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see anybody with a gun in the place?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir.

Mr. BALL - Did you see any strangers in the building that day?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir.

[...]

I wonder what in the world Dougherty was referring to when he said, "I found out later he was on the FOURTH floor, which I didn't find." [emphasis added in original]

Is Dougherty suggesting that he heard later that the shooter, whom Truly and Baker may have encountered on their way up, was on the fourth floor, but that he hadn't seen him there?

Thanks,

--Tommy

Edited November 16, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Ken Davies]

He also refers to a SHOTGUN, not a rifle!

[Thomas Graves]

He also refers to a SHOTGUN, not a rifle!

You're "right as five rabbits," Ken.

Mr. Ball does say "shotgun" instead of "rifle."

I noticed that, too, but the point I was trying to make is that Dougherty might have been suggesting that he heard later that the shooter was on the fourth floor, but that he hadn't seen him there.

A shooter on the fourth floor ties in nicely with Baker's statement that he encountered a man in a tan jacket on that floor, if my memory is serving me correctly.

I suppose it could be argued that Dougherty meant that he heard later that Truly had been on the fourth floor when he was trying to find him for "the FBI man," but I don't know how realistic that is, and from the context of Ball's question it seems possible that Dougherty was alluding to hearing about a shooter, not about where Mr.Truly was when Dougherty was looking for him.

Question: Was Truly on the fourth floor for any length of time about the time the rifle was discovered or "discovered" on the sixth floor?

--Tommy

Edited November 16, 2013 by Thomas Graves