Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Richard Hocking]

If I had to guess, I would say empty.

Another thought, Robin - with your superior skills - can you make out any clues to the name on the ID pin?

i just looked at it and it's overexposed. it contains no data.

My guess is it's Cletus P. Smudge or Billy Bob Jethro

I gotta say, between Hertz, Fritos, Dr Pepper and KFC, there sure was a lot of product placement in JFK's assasination.

A pity we can't read it.

Looks like the Dr. Pepper machine was doing some brisk business that Friday.

[Blair Dobson]

WITNESS TO HISTORY: Fox News interviews Dr Pepper machine from TSBD.
"It was Oswald..." says vending machine..

[David Josephs]

look at these clowns fondling the evidence...

i know it was 1963 and in nut country, but Perry Mason had been on tee vee how long at this point?

and there is the four foot bag again...

I've always wondered what is keeping the bag upright in that photo.

I asked the same thing of GMACK who sent me this quote from Montgomery's oral history: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17096

Sounds like CYA to me.... yet I don't think a rifle of 7+ lbs or so would be as easy to hold as that... yet this blowup shows he is definitely holding SOMETHING

yet when found it was folded doens to a rectangle with nothing in it....

So HOW does it get into this picture (read below) ??

David,

The Museum never got an oral history from Sawyer, unfortunately, but here’s what L.D. Montgomery said on 11-25-2002. Please note that his memory of the event was very hazy and I’m not at all confident he was accurate:

L.D.: It must just have been a little… it seems like that paper, seems like it was a little stiff paper. I’m trying to think and trying to remember. Was there anything in it?

Gary: That was my next question.

L.D.: That’s what I was thinking. Was there a little piece of that white Venetian blind that was in there? That might’ve been what was holding it up. Because you know, he told ‘em that was a Venetian blind, but he had the rifle in there. But he may have had a little piece of that… you know, a long piece of that Venetian blind in there. That’s what I was thinking. Maybe that’s what it was that was in there, and that’s why it held that up.

Gary: You don’t remember looking inside?

L.D.: (nodding) Oh yeah, I remember looking inside. That’s why I was thinking. I was thinking that I remembered now that there was a piece of that in there. Uh-huh.

=================

Mr. BALL. You found the sack in the area marked 2 on Exhibit J to the Studebaker deposition. Did you pick the sack up?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Which sack are we talking about now?

Mr. BALL. The paper sack?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. The small one or the larger one?

Mr. BALL. The larger one you mentioned that was in position 2.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You picked it up?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Wait just a minute no; I didn't pick it up. I believe Mr. Studebaker did. We left it laying right there so they could check it for prints.

Mr. BELIN. All right, is there anything else you can remember about that sack?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; other than like I said, my partner picked it up and we unfolded it and it appeared to be about the same shape as a rifle case would be. In other words, we made the remark that that is what he probably brought it in.

That is why, the reason we saved it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything, any print of any kind, in connection with the processing of this?

Mr. DAY. No legible prints were found with the powder, no.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether any legible prints were found by any other means or any other place?

Mr. DAY. There is a legible print on it now. They were on there when it was returned to me from the FBI on November 24.

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; there was a sack of some chicken bones and a bottle brought into the identification bureau. I think I still have that sack and bottle down there. The chicken bones, I finally threw them away that laid around there. In my talking to the men who were working on that floor, November 25, they stated, one of them stated, he had eaten lunch over there.

Mr. McCLOY. Someone other than Oswald?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; so I discarded it, or disconnected it with being with Oswald. Incidentally, Oswald's fingerprints were not on the bottle. I checked that.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything inside the bag, if you know, when you found it?

Mr. DAY. I did not open the bag. I did not look inside of the bag at all.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with the bag after you found it and you put this writing on after you dusted it?

Mr. DAY. I released it to the FBI agent.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take it down to the station with you?

Mr. DAY. I didn't take it with me. I left it with the men when I left. I left Detectives Hicks and Studebaker to bring this in with them when they brought other equipment in.

Mr. BELIN. By this you are referring to the bag itself?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a paper sack in the items that were taken from the Texas School Book Depository building?

Mr. HICKS. Paper bag?

Mr. BALL. Paper bag.

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I did not. It seems like there was some chicken bones or maybe a lunch; no, I believe that someone had gathered it up.

Mr. BALL. Well, this was another type of bag made out of brown paper; did you ever see it?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I don't believe I did. I don't recall it.

Mr. BALL. I believe that's all, Mr. Hicks.

Mr. HICKS. All right.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was doubled - it was a piece of paper about this long and it was doubled over.

Mr. BALL. How long was it, approximately?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I don't know - I picked it up and dusted it and they took it down there and sent it to Washington and that's the last I have seen of it, and I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of it before you picked it up?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. Does that sack show in any of the pictures you took?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; it doesn't show in any of the pictures.

[Robert Prudhomme]

I just figured it all out! LHO shot JFK with venetian blinds!

[David Josephs]

Exactly Bob... while making those "POW POW POW" noises with his mouth...

Williams/Jarman/Norman also heard him go, "Click-click....tink-poing-clink... POW"

Now they have to go back and draw in the blind laying next to the dotted line that was the bag... {snicker}

DJ

[Ray Mitcham]

I just figured it all out! LHO shot JFK with venetian blinds!

That's why it was curtains for JFK.

[Blair Dobson]

I just figured it all out! LHO shot JFK with venetian blinds!

That's why it was curtains for JFK.

you owe me a new keyboard Ray.....

that sounds like a Mel Brooks Musical... "Curtains For Kennedy"

[Richard Hocking]

Yet another Allen crop

The top of the bottle is still visible as the police start releasing the TSBD staff to go home Friday afternoon.

[Blair Dobson]

Yet another Allen crop

The top of the bottle is still visible as the police start releasing the TSBD staff to go home Friday afternoon.

richard do you know what time this was taken?

or better, do you know when they started letting people go?

[Blair Dobson]

that looks like a miniature Oswald...you can see the teeshirt....

I wish Jack White and Gray Mack could team up again....

[Richard Hocking]

Yet another Allen crop

The top of the bottle is still visible as the police start releasing the TSBD staff to go home Friday afternoon.

richard do you know what time this was taken?

or better, do you know when they started letting people go?

Nearly all the staff members (that gave a departure time) said they left the TSBD between 2:00 and 2:30.

That does not include Shelley, Lovelady, Givens, Arce, Bonnie Ray Williams, and Dougherty, all of whom were escorted over to the Police station for interviews.

Some of the management types stayed a little bit longer.

[Blair Dobson]

thanks Richard, I am asking because I am trying to nail down the exact time the description of the "suspect" went out and why.

there is one story that it was after Oswald was missing in the head count and one that someone saw someone get into a rambler...
( no effort of course was made to stop the rambler...interesting that...)

so I am stuck in that little time macro...

[Robin Unger]

NARA Evidence Photos: Blanket, Bag, Rods

CE 140: Green and brown blanket. (see 16 WH 512, introduced at 1 WH 119).
CE 142: Bag made out of wrapping paper, found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building after the assassination. (see 16 WH 513, introduced at 1 WH 120).

The top row of photos depict Commission Exhibit 140. This is the blanket, found in the Paine garage, in which the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle had purportedly been stored. The second row of photos show CE 142, a paper bag which the Warren Commission alleged was made by Lee Harvey Oswald and used to carry the rifle into the TSBD. The third row shows curtain rods taken from the Paine home (Oswald had claimed that the bag he took to work on Nov 22 contained curtain rods).

Click on the image to view FULL SIZE

Edited November 25, 2013 by Robin Unger

[Richard Hocking]

thanks Richard, I am asking because I am trying to nail down the exact time the description of the "suspect" went out and why.

there is one story that it was after Oswald was missing in the head count and one that someone saw someone get into a rambler...

( no effort of course was made to stop the rambler...interesting that...)

so I am stuck in that little time macro...

Blair,

at 12:45 the police dispatcher broadcasts a description of an unknown white male, approximately thirty, slender build, height five feet ten inches, weight one hundred sixty-five pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a 30 caliber rifle.

There has been a good deal of speculation where that description originally could have come from.

Only a couple minutes earlier, Deputy Roger Craig, standing on the other side of Elm Street, saw a white male 140-150 pounds, brown hair, in his 20’s, light tan shirt run down the slope and get into a Rambler Station Wagon.

A very interesting and problematic time macro ...

edit: corrected the shirt description given by Craig.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Richard Hocking

[Richard Hocking]

Richard

This cop appears to be holding a Dr Pepper bottle.

He may have left it on the step ?

Click on the image to view FULL SIZE

I believe the officer on the left can positively be identified as Dallas Police Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer.

Thanks to Robin for discovering a video uploaded by Chris Davidson.

Here is a link to the video on Youtube: