Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[David Josephs]

thanks Richard, I am asking because I am trying to nail down the exact time the description of the "suspect" went out and why.

there is one story that it was after Oswald was missing in the head count and one that someone saw someone get into a rambler...

( no effort of course was made to stop the rambler...interesting that...)

so I am stuck in that little time macro...

Blair,

at 12:45 the police dispatcher broadcasts a description of an unknown white male, approximately thirty, slender build, height five feet ten inches, weight one hundred sixty-five pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a 30 caliber rifle.

There has been a good deal of speculation where that description originally could have come from.

Only a couple minutes earlier, Deputy Roger Craig, standing on the other side of Elm Street, saw a white male 140-150 pounds, brown hair, in his 20’s, white T shirt run down the slope and get into a Rambler Station Wagon.

A very interesting and problematic time macro ...

Richard...

Being a little picky here but CRAIG did not put the white T-Shirt on the Oswald looking character getting into the Rambler, but the man in Fritz's office:

As one gets deeper into the Harvey and Lee reality, I believe we can find that these two going their seperate ways after the fact can account for the sightings and feeds back into the conspiracy which sets HARVEY up for the shooting.

Not the ONLY theory, but one that does explain quite a few "macro" loose ends...

Cheers

DJ

Mr. BELIN - Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon?

Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers--

Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light?

Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.

Mr. BELIN - Anything else about him?

Mr. CRAIG - No; nothing except that he looked like he was in an awful hurry.

And Captain Fritz asked me was this the man I saw--and I said, "Yes," it was.

Mr. BELIN - All right.

Will you describe the man you saw in Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was sitting down but--uh--he had the same medium brown hair; it was still--well, it was kinda wild looking; he was slender, and--uh-- what 1 could toll of him sitting there, he was--uh---short. By that, I mean not--myself, I'm five eleven--he was shorter than I was. And--uh--fairly light build.

Mr. BELIN - Could you see his trousers?

Mr. CRAIG - No; I couldn't see his trousers at all.

Mr. BELIN - What about his shirt?

Mr. CRAIG - I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt--a white T-shirt.

[Blair Dobson]

Thanks guys...

For a long time I thought the whole "Harvey and Lee" thing was a nut up...not as in lone nut..just another one of those CT things that explains anomolies in the way SBT nuts use delusions to fuel their rationales...

After reading about Nagell, I changed my tune.. Someone using Oswalds Identity in Mexico is one thing...but multiple Oswalds showing up all over Dallas in the weeks before and during the hit got me to wondering...

Billy Lovelady and his past as a thief was interesting as well...

and this:

"at 12:45 the police dispatcher broadcasts a description of an unknown white male, approximately thirty, slender build, height five feet ten inches, weight one hundred sixty-five pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a 30 caliber rifle."

so, keep an eye out for a moron walking around with a rifle MERE MINUTES after the 35th President has been emulsified in Dealey...

this also tells me they had not found the rifle by this point.. which then turns up minutes later...

Another question: Did he take a cab or a bus? All of the WCR testimony about him catching a bus is useless and coached.(not that that is a surprise)

I'm just trying to rule certain things out of the Oswald timeline here and I think it's germane to this thread so..

Thanks all, in advance...

and just a question, why was this Rambler allowed to just "drive off"?

Edited November 26, 2013 by Blair Dobson

[Richard Hocking]

thanks Richard, I am asking because I am trying to nail down the exact time the description of the "suspect" went out and why.

there is one story that it was after Oswald was missing in the head count and one that someone saw someone get into a rambler...

( no effort of course was made to stop the rambler...interesting that...)

so I am stuck in that little time macro...

Blair,

at 12:45 the police dispatcher broadcasts a description of an unknown white male, approximately thirty, slender build, height five feet ten inches, weight one hundred sixty-five pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a 30 caliber rifle.

There has been a good deal of speculation where that description originally could have come from.

Only a couple minutes earlier, Deputy Roger Craig, standing on the other side of Elm Street, saw a white male 140-150 pounds, brown hair, in his 20’s, white T shirt run down the slope and get into a Rambler Station Wagon.

A very interesting and problematic time macro ...

Richard...

Being a little picky here but CRAIG did not put the white T-Shirt on the Oswald looking character getting into the Rambler, but the man in Fritz's office:

As one gets deeper into the Harvey and Lee reality, I believe we can find that these two going their seperate ways after the fact can account for the sightings and feeds back into the conspiracy which sets HARVEY up for the shooting.

Not the ONLY theory, but one that does explain quite a few "macro" loose ends...

Cheers

DJ

Mr. BELIN - Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon?

Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers--

Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light?

Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.

Mr. BELIN - Anything else about him?

Mr. CRAIG - No; nothing except that he looked like he was in an awful hurry.

And Captain Fritz asked me was this the man I saw--and I said, "Yes," it was.

Mr. BELIN - All right.

Will you describe the man you saw in Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was sitting down but--uh--he had the same medium brown hair; it was still--well, it was kinda wild looking; he was slender, and--uh-- what 1 could toll of him sitting there, he was--uh---short. By that, I mean not--myself, I'm five eleven--he was shorter than I was. And--uh--fairly light build.

Mr. BELIN - Could you see his trousers?

Mr. CRAIG - No; I couldn't see his trousers at all.

Mr. BELIN - What about his shirt?

Mr. CRAIG - I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt--a white T-shirt.

David,

I don't know how the white tee shirt snuck into my post. In my notes, Craig described the shirt as medium to light tan, just as you quoted him. Good catch, and thanks for the correction.

[David Josephs]

Richard.... Ghosts in the Machine... :-)

Thanks for keeping an open mind Blair... I've doing a page-by-page run thru of H&L as I prepare to create a "cliff notes spreadsheet" version of H&L that focuses on the timing conflicts throughout his life...

Here is but one example of the MACS-9 location for HARVEY while LEE is at MAG-3... just up the road a bit. The record of those stationed with HARVEY versus LEE leaves no room for questions about there bing two different people... one a communist talking, small pain in the butt, and another the taller, AMERICAN who goes to Japan and gets an STD "on the job".

This does NOT include those that impersonated either Oswald to create even more confusion... (Read Oswald in Alice TX)

DJ

1959 3/15 :

HARVEY in the "LIGHTER THAN AIR STATION" at Santa Ana while GRAF tells FBI Agent Ely that the LHO he was with was NEVER at MCAF MACS-9 / MCAF Santa Ana CA

LEE

MAG-3 El Toro, CA Allen D. Graf was transferred from North Carolina to El Toro, CA in the spring of 1959.21 He told FBI Agent Birl Wilson that he was Oswald's Platoon Sergeant for 6-8 months at Marine Air Control Group 3 (MAG 3) in El Toro. Graf remembers LEE as a VERY GOOD MARKSMAN with a score of 229, NOT 191.... and DISAGREES with the FBI report attributed to him.

The person walking past Mrs Reid is NOT Harvey who was wearing the reddish-brown Briarloom button down collared shirt... which turns into the ARREST SHIRT as told by Whaley WITH a jacket matching his pants on top of that...

How are these the same people?

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?
Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell?
Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay much attention to it right then. But it all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just ordinary work clothes. It wasn't khaki pants but they were khaki material, blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind of jacket, I didn't notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants.
He, his shirt was open three buttons down here. He had on a T-shirt. You know, the shirt was open three buttons down there.

[Richard Hocking]

...

and just a question, why was this Rambler allowed to just "drive off"?

Blair,

below is how Craig described it:

David Belin: All right. And then what did you see happen?

Roger Craig: I saw a light-colored station wagon, driving real slow, coming west on Elm Street from Houston... actually, it was nearly in line with him. And the driver was leaning to his right looking up the hill at the man running down.... And the station wagon stopped almost directly across from me. And... the man continued down the hill and got in the station wagon. And I attempted to cross the street. I wanted to talk to both of them. But the... traffic was so heavy I couldn't get across the street. And they were gone before I could...

[David Josephs]

...

and just a question, why was this Rambler allowed to just "drive off"?

Blair,

below is how Craig described it:

David Belin: All right. And then what did you see happen?

Roger Craig: I saw a light-colored station wagon, driving real slow, coming west on Elm Street from Houston... actually, it was nearly in line with him. And the driver was leaning to his right looking up the hill at the man running down.... And the station wagon stopped almost directly across from me. And... the man continued down the hill and got in the station wagon. And I attempted to cross the street. I wanted to talk to both of them. But the... traffic was so heavy I couldn't get across the street. And they were gone before I could...

It was so heavy yet MOVING at a brisk enough pace that a detective could not hold up a badge and STOP TRAFFIC ?

In the MURRAY/ALLEN photos we see people moving across ELM... wasn't Oswald supposedly spotted under the freeway sign in one of the Murray shots?

At no time does it appear that people cannot get across ELM... nor is there anyone stopping traffic on ELM in from t of the TSBD.. so ??

[Blair Dobson]

awesome..again guys thanks..

another blunder fudge by the DPD and everyone else...that whole block should have been immediately shut down...

i guess when you let the clowns run the rodeo instead of the cowboys..

(actually, clowns DO run the rodeo in real rodeos....but never mind...lol)

[David Josephs]

One last comment...

The HARPER FRAGMENT was not found until after 5pm on the 23rd....

For over 24 hours that piece supposedly just sat there, undiscovered....

Yet we are to believe that a piece of Occipital Bone flew FORWARD as a result of the rear shot and lands in front of and to the south of the limo...

to be FOUND a day later... and then disappear.

As hard as they tried, HARPER could not be fit to the front of JFK's head.... while the description by Boswell gives away the charade

[Blair Dobson]

that drawing makes no sense.

harper fragment and oswald leaving tsbd? what the...

[David Josephs]

Related to your comment about shutting DP down... items like the HARPER FRAGMENT, the manhole cover bullet, the TAGUE mark, and the other marks on the surfaces of DP could have been correctly investigated.

My point with the diagram is that even after alteration, Boswell describes the results of a shot from the front...

Each bit of evidence provided within the WCR builds the case for conpsiracy... even when they thought they were covering it up...

The physical evidence remains the fraud, while the witness testimonies shed light on what actually occurred...

Sorry for the confusion

DJ

[Blair Dobson]

thanks david!

[Chris Newton]

In Vinces thread on Sam Kinney, the ex- SS agent states there was blood and brains all over the windshield of "Lucy", the followup car. More evidence of a shot from the front. LN'ers will argue that Lucy drove through the cloud of gore that's been removed from the extant Zapruder film, of course.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Chris Newton

[Blair Dobson]

do LN'rs think the Z film is altered?

that's nuts.

[David Josephs]

In Vinces thread on Sam Kinney, the ex- SS agent states there was blood and brains all over the windshield of "Lucy", the followup car. More evidence of a shot from the front. LN'ers will argue that Lucy drove through the cloud of gore that's been removed from the extant Zapruder film, of course.

Not sure what this has to do with Oswald leaving the TSBD but....

Boring says the same thing, then recants.... he describes a piece of bone found in the follow-up car... then claims he never said any of it....

Mr. SPECTER - What was the condition with respect to cleanliness?

Mr. FRAZIER - There were blood and particles of flesh scattered all over the hood, the windshield, in the front seat and all over the rear floor rugs, the jump seats, and over the rear seat, and down both sides of the side rails or tops of the doors of the car.

I have yet to find an image of the limo which shows anything close to this condition... especially the HOOD. so IDK, just thought I'd mention it

DJ

[David Josephs]

do LN'rs think the Z film is altered?

that's nuts.

You lost me after "Do LNers think......" all indications so far point to "no"

DJ