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I tried to find photos of those trees specifically and finally have... from the next day or two...

The polaroid lens was maybe 114mm (most seemed to be) with a 1/1200 sec shutter speed - so that's why everything is in "focus" yet the 'Land Camera 80' as her camera is described as, was really a model 800 it appears. and why it appears we are closer to the building than she was....

The tree limbs match while the image on the right was probably taken with a standard 35mm...

- yet, where is the light pole in Moorman?

Moorman3treeok-whereislightpost_zps484f5

Good find, David. The photo on the right looks like it may have been taken a few feet West of Moorman's position. Gives an excellent illustration of the tree line against the TSBD. I am curious who took it and what day they snapped the photo.

Regarding the Light pole, if you look at the uncropped Moorman photo, there is something that resembles the light pole near the right side of the photo.

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I tried to find photos of those trees specifically and finally have... from the next day or two...

The polaroid lens was maybe 114mm (most seemed to be) with a 1/1200 sec shutter speed - so that's why everything is in "focus" yet the 'Land Camera 80' as her camera is described as, was really a model 800 it appears. and why it appears we are closer to the building than she was....

The tree limbs match while the image on the right was probably taken with a standard 35mm...

- yet, where is the light pole in Moorman?

Moorman3treeok-whereislightpost_zps484f5

Good find, David. The photo on the right looks like it may have been taken a few feet West of Moorman's position. Gives an excellent illustration of the tree line against the TSBD. I am curious who took it and what day they snapped the photo.

Regarding the Light pole, if you look at the uncropped Moorman photo, there is something that resembles the light pole near the right side of the photo.

Thanks Richard - I see that now...

Amazing how the angles on things change so much about their perceived appearance and location.

That has to be one of the worst polaroid photos ever taken! I find it nearly impossible to believe THAT was how it came out.

DJ

btw - the few photos I have of the flowers in the middle grass area do not tell me where I got them, sadly.

DealeyplazaFLOWERS_zpsfd3bf18d.jpg

KGrHqJHJDkFBpinyI4vBQb56etVQ60_57_zps49c

6939242835_db7bae5e64_b_zps6697cd7a.jpg

Edited by David Josephs
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Do you guys still think a shot from the 5th floor West face of the building is feasible? As I think it through, it make sense. Not expert in the trajectories, but... with the entire world focused (for 50 years) on the open windows of the 6th floor South side of the building, it amazes me that other locations were not more rigorously investigated.

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Do you guys still think a shot from the 5th floor West face of the building is feasible? As I think it through, it make sense. Not expert in the trajectories, but... with the entire world focused (for 50 years) on the open windows of the 6th floor South side of the building, it amazes me that other locations were not more rigorously investigated.

Gene, according to first DPD reports , the rifle was found on the "fifth" floor.

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Gene Kelly asked whether it was thought a shot from the west 5th floor was possible.

This is my old model of the Plaza. I am in the process of completely rebuilding the model. However the essential dimensions are accurate.

The first car is at 223/4 and the second car is at 312/3.

Without hanging out the window, I am not sure at 223/4 it is a possible shot.

At 312/3 it might be possible, but it looks like a very difficult shot.

As can be seen the south wall is by far the better wall. The south west window was open throughout the assassination and it provides an excellent opportunity.

From the TSBD:-

WestWindow5thFloortif_zpsb7c959be.png

Looking Back to the TSBD:-

TSBD5thWindow2_zps99476a9d.png

James

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James,

That is a nice mockup of the buildings and Elm St.

Can you extend a straight line following the West wall of the TSBD out across Elm St?

This would show when the Limo would first become visible to anyone looking out an upper floor window on the West side.

It would also be interesting to see the positions of TUM and DCM on your mockup.

What plat are you using for your measurements?

Looks like you have put quite a bit of time into this.

Would like to see more as your work progresses.

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Richard,

Thanks for the comments. I used the Dealey Plaza Renovation Plat. That allowed me to have a North Plaza as well as a complete North and South Plaza.

The North Plaza was used for my work on the Connally trajectory analysis.

The red line running from the TSBD west all is 5ft wide

The blue line is 28 ft long.

So at 223/4 the car is 33ft from the side of the west wall.

TopView_zps91f5d494.png

James.

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Thanks for the visual update, James.

FWIW, I also get a distance of 33' West of the West Wall for Z224 using Don Roberdeau's map.

Here are some other reference points using that same map. All measurements are West of the West wall of the TSBD.

Z224 ~ 33'

Mary Moorman on S. Curb of Elm ~ 63'

TUM on N sidewalk of Elm ~ 73'

Z313 ~ 86'

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This is a follow-up to a question raised earlier in this thread concerning the Dr. Pepper bottle Inspector Sawyer is holding in the photo below.

Could this bottle be the same bottle seen on the top step NW corner of the entrance in 4 other photos taken by William Allen?

normal_metapth184797_xl_1989_100_0024_00

The answer lies in the sequence of the photos. We know that the bottle on the step appears in two photos taken by Allen during the 12:40 – 1:00 time range. Around 1:00 pm, Larry Florer is arrested on the street and taken to the Sheriff’s office. Allen walks over to the office and takes 6 pictures of Florer in custody. After several minutes in the office, Allen leaves and begins walking North on Houston Street back towards the TSBD. As he approaches, he takes two photos of the building.

The next photo on the Allen Contact Sheet is the photo showing Sawyer on the steps with the Dr. Pepper bottle and a cigarette.

The very next photo after that shows the 3 tramps being escorted in front of the TSBD. We know the tramps photo is taken around, or just after 2 pm.

So, being sandwiched between the Florer photos and the Tramps photos places the Sawyer photo somewhere in the 1:15 – 2:00 time period. The Dr. Pepper bottle Sawyer is holding is not the same bottle seen on the top step in the other Allen photos.

From a logical standpoint, it makes sense. When Inspector Sawyer arrived at the TSBD, in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, he became a very busy man. After going up to the 4th floor, taking a quick look, and coming back down to the entrance, he setup a command post. Numerous witnesses and suspects were arriving to be interviewed or give statements. These included Howard Brennan, Amos Euins, Charles Brehm, Arnold Rowland and wife, Robert Edwards, Larry Florer, and others.

It seems unlikely Sawyer would have taken a cigarette and Dr. Pepper break during this hectic period when the assassin was also potentially in the building.

Sawyer was out front of the TSBD until 4 pm. It seems reasonable that he would have taken a break later in the afternoon after the building had been cleared and the witnesses and suspects delivered to Decker and Fritz’s offices.

So, for anyone keeping score, there was one Dr. Pepper bottle allegedly found on the 6th floor (with photos showing Johnson bringing it out front), another bottle left on the top step in the NW corner of the entrance, and a third bottle being held by Inspector Sawyer in the Allen photo.

edited for syntax.

Edited by Richard Hocking
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