Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[David Josephs]

Tony and David:

Bringing us back to this thread, if we belive there's some likelihood that 'Prayer Man' is indeed Lee (or Harvey) Oswald, its baffling what happened next. Looks like eyewitness accounts put this person going back into the TSBD (after the shooting becomes evident) which seems counterintuitive. None of this makes sense anymore, and we're left to speculate. Prayer Man's shirt and appearance certainly look like the Oswald who's later arrested. Lee is escorted out the back of the Texas Theatre never to be seen again (except by Mathers and an officer on a CIA flight to Area 51). I do agree that - in the chaos and movement following the shooting - anyone could've left the TSBD. Pictures (and Craig's observation) give us an "Oswald look-alike" leaving in a Rambler. I personally don't belive in any of Oswald's recorded escape routes... buses, taxis, walking quickly or redbird flights. Its all slight of hand by magicians prompting us to focus on the wrong stuff.

Gene

All good points Gene....

Yet one of the question that I have not had the time to pursue in its entirety is, "Who else could it be?"

I know a number of pages back there is speculation,

do we know how Oswald's name is at the top of the TSBD employee list? Did HE give them his name after he went back inside, only to leave by some other route?

One of the staples of the case is Roberts' account of Oswald coming to his room around 1pm, spending a little time there (changing) and leaving while zipping up a jacket.

There was no jacket... since the jacket found was not Oswald's...

So how do we know it was his? Marina.

Mr. RANKIN. 162?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's--an old shirt. (This is the jacket recovered on the ground at the car lot.... an old shirt? was she shown the same thing as CE162?

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=138188

Mr. RANKIN. Sort of a jacket?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

And now we are to believe that he wore the same shirt and jacket home thursday night.... while we all know he goes to work with the BLUE JACKET Friday morning. Yet we come to learn that the BLUE JACKET was still at the TSBD.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of these clothes that your husband was wearing when he came home Thursday night, November 21, 1963?

Mrs. OSWALD. On Thursday I think he wore this shirt.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that Exhibit 150?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember anything else he was wearing at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems he had that jacket, also.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 162?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it possible that Exhibit 163 (Blue Jacket described by Wesley) was worn by him that morning without your knowing about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Quite possible.

Wesley tries to support the gray wollen jacket idea... but does a poor job in one respect yet appears to say that what he wore was neither the blue jacket at the TSBD or the grey one CE162.

Mr. FRAZIER - He got out of the car and he was wearing the jacket that has the big sleeves in them and he put the package that he had

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0273a.htm

Mr. BALL - I have here Commission's 163, a gray blue jacket. Do you recognize this jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald wear this jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe I have.

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe I have because most time I noticed when Lee had it, I say he put off his shirt and just wear a T-shirt the biggest part of the time so really what shirt he wore that day I really didn't see it or didn't pay enough attention to it whether he did have a shirt on.

Mr. BALL - On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.

Mr. BALL - Did it have a zipper on it?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.

Mr. BALL - It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Here is another jacket which is a gray jacket, does this look anything like the jacket he had on?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; I remember its being gray.

Mr. BALL. Well, this one is gray but of these two the jacket I last showed you is Commission Exhibit No. 162, and this blue gray is 163, now if you had to choose between these two?

Mrs. RANDLE. I would choose the dark one.

Mr. BALL. You would choose the dark one?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which is 163, as being more similar to the jacket he had?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; that I remember. But I, you know, didn't pay an awful lot of attention to his jacket. I remember his T-shirt and the shirt more so than I do the jacket.

Mr. BALL. The witness just stated that 163 which is the gray-blue is similar to the jacket he had on. 162, the light gray jacket was not.

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Ok... so Prayerman has the same open shirt and white T as seen on Oswald when arrested.

Prayerman and who we believe is Lovelady are seen in the same frames... they are not the same person.

The man in Dillard in the WEST window appears to be only wearing a T shirt.... and has a similar receding hairline to LEE.

It is possible that HARVEY is indeed Prayerman...

- Lunchroom scene never happened, in reality Truly and Baker only encounter the "employee on the stairs"

- LEE passes Reid and leaves via the front door, Craig and others see this person

- HARVEY goes back inside, gives his name and the Elsbeth address to the DPD and leaves taking a bus to the Theater as mentioned in Fritz's and Holmes' recaps of the interrogation.

- LEE goes to Beckley in the Rambler, is picked up by the patrol car and brought to Ruby's or that area where he then makes his way down 10th, going west, until he encounters Tippit...

If the FBI /SSwould not hear about more than 3 shots, can you imagine if anyone said that Oswald was right there at the top of the stairs in the corner? Yet not a soul has EVER come forward saying such....

And I cannot think of why part of the plan would be to put an Oswald impersonator on those steps...

I am trying to find if anyone in any of the images looks like Prayerman... no luck yet. This has become one of themore interesting mysteries of the case...

Amazing that we can't ID the person.

DJ

[Tony Goin]

David, Gene, I really appreciate your input and knowledge of the case, You are making me rethink things and that is good. I want to learn.

11/22/63 started out rainy with a little chill in the air, many of the TSBD employees seemed to wear T-shirts and some form of outer wear, like Lovelady and LHO and apparently, “prayer man “

I know the Roger Craig’s sighting is controversial I knew I would get a lot of comment about his testimony concerning the shirt.

Marina Told FBI that Oswald was wearing a tan shirt and gray jacket.
From Crono at
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v2n1/chrono2.pdf

Craig testified to a tan shirt or light colored shirt

Mr. BELIN - I believe you used the phrase, "light shirt". Would Exhibit 150 be darker than the shirt he was wearing?
Mr. CRAIG - Uh--it looks darker in here--yes, uh-huh.

CE 150 is brown/tan

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/b/b7/Photo_naraevid_CE150-1.jpg

Since CE 150 is the shirt that Bledslow described that Oswald had on in the bus, It would make since, if you believe her, that is the shirt Oswald had on that day at work with a white T shirt underneath. Then factor in a light gray jacket that he left at work.

Also consider the following:

Capt. Will Fritz to gave him the description of the man he had seen. Fritz said Craig‘s description sounded like the man they had and asked him to come take a look. When he saw Oswald in Fritz‘s personal office Deputy Craig confirmed that this was indeed the man, dressed in the same way, that he had seen running down the knoll and into the Rambler. They went into the office together and Fritz told Oswald,

“This man (pointing to me) saw you leave.” At which time the suspect replied, “I told you people I did.” Fritz, apparently trying to console Oswald, said, “Take it easy, son—we‘re just trying to find out what happened.” Fritz then said, “What about the car?” Oswald replied, leaning forward on Fritz‘s desk, “That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine—don‘t try to drag her into this.” Sitting back in his chair, Oswald said very disgustedly and very low, “Everybody will know who I am now.”

The fact that Fritz said car and this elicited Oswald‘s outburst about a station wagon—that no one else had mentioned—confirms the veracity of Roger Craig‘s story.

I just don’t know how Craig and Fritz ‘s conversations with Oswald. It is one of the few DPD interrogation/questioning of Oswald is collaborated.

I will post this for now, running out of time. There are more reasons why I feel Craig got it right.
Tony

[Gene Kelly]

One thing, that David has emphasized previously, really helps me to look at all of this differently. It's to think in terms of two Oswalds... Harvey and Lee. Once you get past the "I believe" button on that fact, it opens up a new pattern of analysis. In similar fashion, I distrust the provenance of much of the evidence. And the TSBD has become a diversionary place in my mind... not a tactical location to kill the President with a skilled sniper.

I now view TSBD as a place where both individuals are present; a patsy and an impersonator. Maybe they both know of each other, maybe not. Maybe Lee knows of Harvey but not vice versa. Each has a different role while in the TSBD. Each has to 'escape' by some means. We speculate that Lee is at the Tippit scene, incriminating Harvey. All we know for sure (or rather with some measure of certainty) is that they end up together again at the Texas Theatre. Another amazing story relayed in Douglas' "JFK and the Unspeakable") is that possibly Lee is last seen on a CIA flight out of Dallas to a secret government site. I wonder what ever happened to him?

So, were they working together? Our paradigm is that Lee is setting Harvey up (unbeknownst to Harvey) ... but that might not be fully accurate. It all begs the question of how innocent we think Harvey really is, and what he was really up to before he got caught. One thing for sure is, he is trying to get away from something or somebody, and ends up in a pre-arranged meeting place where the entire DPD converges upon him. He was running away from something, and hoping for a contact with someone helpful.

But, getting back to the thread, the man in the doorway sure seems to be Harvey ... I wonder why he went back into the building?

[David Josephs]

Since CE 150 is the shirt that Bledslow described that Oswald had on in the bus, It would make since, if you believe her, that is the shirt Oswald had on that day at work with a white T shirt underneath. Then factor in a light gray jacket that he left at work.

Hi again Tony...

1st - I'm pretty sure it's Bledsoe....

2nd - as I tried to mention above... Bledsoe only describes the ARREST SHIRT... which is not the same thing Oswald wore to work and changed out of at his room...

The following link is from BOOKOUT's report of the interrogation... "a reddish, long sleeve shirt, with a button down collar....." "..placed those articles of clothing in the lower drawer of his dresser"

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0019a.htm

So I am of the opinion that Bledsoe was given the description of the man when arrested, shirt and all, while what he actually wore prior to that has disappeared to history.

Gene -

While "LEE" is at the top of my list for this other Oswald... it could have been one of a number of impersonators....

If we believe that "Phase 1" of the cover story was Oswald's alliance with Cubans/Russians in the plot to kill JFK - either as Castro retribution or a KGB backed plan to keep their Cold War alive as well as ours....

Gotta keep those phoney baloney jobs gentlemen... :-)

anyway.... it was these connections, the reality of someone else using Oswald's identity from as early as 1960, and the false evidence from Mexico City created by the CIA which laid the groundwork for Phase 2 cover-up... Lone Nut.

Once it was agreed in DC that there was NO CONSPIRACY, OSWALD ALONE, we see the systematic destruction of the Phase 1 story.... Alvarado and Duran are ultimately discredited, Odio is ignored, and we find that all the false leads for PHASE 1 point to David Atlee Phillips' work in CI... His job in previous "actions" was to leave behind the false clues and disinfo to cover-up the culpable....

I personally believe these phases were carefully planned well below the surface of CIA/SS/FBI and originated within the Military Intelligence community... while the CIA takes the heat, the ONI/INS/ATF and related acronyms continue in relative obscurity.

That being said - He went back into the building like everyone else... He gives his name to the police... he tells Fritz "out front with Bill Shelley" after lunch....

I'd like to put forth the theory that "SUITMAN" behind Lovelady is Shelley... he is one of the only TSBD employees wearing a suit that day....

Mr. SHELLEY - In my office next to Mr. Truly's and 1 ate part of it which I do usually and finish up later on in the day but I went outside then to the front,

Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the front?

Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them.

Mr. BALL - And who was out there?

Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.

Mr. BALL - You were standing where?

Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there

(Stanton nor Viles is called to the WC - in this image... the tall man at the top of the stairs is Wesley... Shelley has walked off with Arce toward the RR yard...)

Where is Lovelady in the B&W Darnell compared to the color image...

and where is WESLEY in Altgens - could he be tie man behind Lovelady (although it appears that person is in a suit like Shelley) ??

[Gene Kelly]

Lloyd Viles, Sarah Stanton, Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards...

David;

Seems that Shelley has given us the short list for other Prayer Man candidates. Inreresting that there's no mention of Oswald. Call me crazy, but the picture of Shelley in a suit beling escorted out by some menacing looking cops, is pretty creepy. Just the look on his face (and the cops) tells me something is not right. Its more than just, the Presdient has been shot... its more like, lets get out of here. I know its not very scientific, but he looks evil and guilty... everytime I've ever seeen his picture, it has the same effect. Why is he in a suit and tie? And he certainly didn't waste any time leaving the premises... and seen walking with Arce toward the railroad yard. How is it that he and Arce are singled out to be "escorted" out of the TSBD by DPD? He's wisked off for questioning... or is he an accomplice being protectively removed from the scene? Shelley has become a person of interest for me.

Gene

[David Josephs]

Yes indeed Gene... Shelley appears to one of those that sensed something going on... he was also a bit higher up the TSBD food chain...

but Manager of the "Misc" department... ??

Mr. BALL - In November 1963, what was your job down there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, I am manager of the miscellaneous department and have been for several years.
Mr. BALL - Who is your immediate superior?
Mr. SHELLEY - Roy S. Truly.
Mr. BALL - What is his job?
Mr. SHELLEY - He is superintendent of the place.
Mr. BALL - Did you know Lee Oswald?
Mr. SHELLEY - He worked for me.... (​doing "miscellaneous" things...)

Add now Molina and the evidence for the TSBD being a center for gun running and communist activity.... http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1097

And one starts to believe that most everyone had something to hide, yet another detail going in favor of the "plan"...

Getting Oswald to Elm Street was obvious critical... and then the planning of the Mexico City disinfo campaign

and it seems we are back to Summer 63 when Harvey is being targeted for Dallas...

working for SHELLEY .... is it so far a leap to conclude Shelley is aware of Oswald at multiple levels... and suspicious as well...

Truly would have to be told to hire the young man and keep him on Elm... in mid October... as Harvey does not take a better paying job elsewhere...

Truly supporting Baker's revised encounter is no real surprise under this premise

and Shelley helping to concealing the identity of Harvey/Prayerman?.... Gene, too many people walked past that person, for it to have been Harvey, and none said a word after he became known... NONE. Honestly Gene... it has to be someone else... and since he is there after Baker runs by it is not LEE...

Again... where is Wesley in Altgens?

Where is Lovelady in Darnell...?

I'm thinking that Prayerman is not anyone we have mentioned yet... do we ever know or see this person entering the building?

;;;;;; on another note

while Vallee is in Chicago and ?? is in Tampa... Oswald is Dallas...

Triple redundancy, at least, with associates and planning for each location should there have been success...

In the index of the MFF Warren Comm Docs you can find all the reports out of Chicago office...

Check em out... most have Vallee mentioned in one way or anther...

they are spread out across alot of docs but worth the read... tripping over themselves to deny connections to Oswald while bringing them up themselves in the first place...

DJ

[Thomas Graves]

Gene Kelley wrote in post # 1415: "Bill Shelley ... [was] seen walking with Danny Arce to the railway yard."

Now someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Shelley say that he walked to the railway yard / parking lot right after the assassination with Billy Lovelady (rather than Danny Arce), and was captured on film doing so? Or was it Lovelady who said he walked there with Shelley? Whatever.

Gene also rhetorically states that Shelley and Arce were "singled out" to be "escorted" from the TSBD premises by the police.

What about Bonnie Ray Williams? He was also in that little group of TSBD employees who were placed in the police car, as can be seen in Sean Murphy's post #181 (page 13 this thread). Was he a conspirator who was "singled out" for protection, too? Or was he cleverly included as (pun) "window dressing"?

--Tommy

Edited February 9, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Gene Kelly]

Tommy:

You thicken the plot. I'll have to go back to some pictures i saw last week, pictures that I thought had Arce being sheparded into a DPD car. It may have been with Lovelady, but I recall Shelley being in the same frame. Then when I viewed the cropped frame that david provided a few days ago, with Shelley in the forefront and several serious looking DPD officers surrounding him (motorcycle helmet, shotgun), it struck me as an armed guard escort as opposed to bringing in a key witness for questioning. The manager of the Miscellaneous Department (ostensibly Oswald's supervisor) has a serious 'employee issue' on his hands, at this point. I was also struck by a comment made from another thread (need to go back and find the source) about these gentlemen walking towards the railway yard ... arguably one of the best escape routes for conspirators.

My intent in raising all of this is to respond to earlier challenges about who else might've taken a shot, and how they got out of the building. Although nothing's as it seems in this case, Lovelady appears innocent and believable. But Arce (recent temporary assignee to repair a plywood floor) and Shelley are suspicious (imho) and they conveniently left the building with an armed escort... pretty good way to escape. And not the way that Lee or Harvey left, for sure.

Gene

[Thomas Graves]

Yes, Gene

You did see a photo of Danny Arce being led to a police car by a shotgun wielding policeman and a motorcycle cop. Bill Shelley and Bonnie Ray Williams were with him, as were two detectives tentatively identified as Senkel and Brown.

Billy Lovelady was not with them.

The two detectives (Senkel and Brown?) sat upfront in the police car with the policeman driver, and Bonnie Ray Williams, Danny Arce, and Bill Shelley sat in the back seat. Shelley sat behind the driver.

Billy Lovelady was not with them, although he had walked with Bill Shelley from the TSBD to the railway yard / parking lot (and back to the TSBD) right after the assassination.

--Tommy

Edited February 14, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Gene Kelly]

Yes, Gene

You did see a photo of Danny Arce being led to a police car by a shotgun wielding policeman and a motorcycle cop. Bill Shelley and Bonnie Ray Williams were with him, as were two detectives tentatively identified as Senkel and Brown.

Billy Lovelady was not with them.

The two detectives (Senkel and Brown?) sat upfront in the police car with the policeman driver, and Bonnie Ray Williams, Danny Arce, and Bill Shelley sat in the back seat. Shelley sat behind the driver.

Billy Lovelady was not with them, although he had walked with Bill Shelley from the TSBD to the railway yard / parking lot (and back to the TSBD) right after the assassination.

--Tommy

Tommy:

Call me crazy, but that is the "escape" that Bill Kelly (no relation, although we hail from the same area) challenged us to describe, along with the "who" (if not Oswald). I'm coming late into the Lovelady/Shelley sweepstakes, but it must be limited to a finite number of people, no? It can't be Al Gore or Forrest Gump (nor Kevin Bacon)... my money's on Shelley. What a great way to leave the TSBD premises. These fellows were in protective custody, literally and figuratively. I'd love to know what transpired with their lives (Arce, Shelly, Truely) in the next five years... healthy and prosperous?

Gene

[Thomas Graves]

No, Gene.

That's not "The Escape" (which Bill Kelley wasn't asking about anyway).

They were being taken in for questioning.

Shelley, Arce, and Williams were taken away for questioning several minutes after the assassination. As were other witnesses that afternoon. Some people were escorted on foot and some people were transported by motor vehicle. Amos Euins was lucky enough to get a ride on the back of a three wheeled motorcycle.

These three (Shelley, Arce, and Bonnie Ray Williams) travelled by police car.

--Tommy

Edited February 10, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Gene Kelly]

Tommy (and all):

I'd then focus my energy and interest on those three persons ,,,, they affected the "Great Escape" with all due respect to Steve McQueen and James Garner. Are there transcripts of their questioning? We don'thave much documentation of Oswald's brief incarceration... I doubt DPD accuratelty captured what these three had to say (if anything). The less documented, the more I'd tend to suspect. I believe its no coincidence that Shelley, Arce and Williams were spirited out of the TSBD and into relative anominity (if I got that word correctly) for 50 years. Exit stage left. No doubt they're all dead now.

PS. love Peter Gabriel and his music.

[Gene Kelly]

No, Gene.

That's not "The Escape" (which Bill Kelley wasn't asking about anyway).

They were being taken in for questioning.

Shelley, Arce, and Williams were taken away for questioning several minutes after the assassination. As were other witnesses that afternoon. Some people were escorted on foot and some people were transported by motor vehicle. Amos Euins was lucky enough to get a ride on the back of a three wheeled motorcycle.

These three (Shelley, Arce, and Bonnie Ray Williams) travelled by police car.

--Tommy

Shelley is implicated by many contradictory encounters. Guarding an elevator, making a phone call, being observed as unusually "calm", talking with Oswald, searching the top floors, and of course being on those front steps. Pictures later show he and Lovelady quickly leaving the TSBD towards the railroad yards, only to later return to the building (5-10 minurtes later)... why would they be drawn to that location almost immediately? As highlighted by other posters, Shelley gave two versions of what he did after the shots were fired:

Story #1: 11/22/63 DPD Statement: Ran across the street; talked to Gloria Calvery; went back into the TSBD; called my wife; went to guard the back elevator; went upstairs with the Police to search.

Story #2: WC testimony 4/7/64: Truly and an officer (Baker) went into the TSBD “3 or 4 minutes" after Shelley had talked to Calvery. He then walked fast down to the railroad yards accompanied by Lovelady, stayed for about a minute and a half, and walked slowly back to the TSBD. Giving conflicting accounts of such an important period of time after the assassination raises suspicion. Here are some more quotes (taken from previous threads:

I was standing on the front steps at 411 Elm watching the President in the parade. The President's car was about half way from Houston Street to the Triple Underpass when I heard what sounded like three shots. I couldn't tell where they were coming from. I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery who is an employee of this same building. I went back into the building and went inside and called my wife and told her what happened. I was on the first floor then and I stayed at the elevator and was told not to let anyone out of the elevator. I left the elevator and went with the police on up to the other floors

Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the east side door of the building about ten minutes later. I remained in the building until about 1:30 PM when I was asked to go to the Dallas Police Dept. to furnish an affidavit. I returned to the [TSBD] Building about 5 PM. I did not leave the building until about 7 PM that day.

I realize that Shelley "appears" to have been taken in for questoning by DPD. Statements by Officers Brown and Senkel (accompanied by a uniformed policeman) said they "brought" the employees to the Homicide office. Shelley, Lovelady, Daugherty, Williams and Arce all apparently arrived around the same time at the DPD homicide office. To me, it looks more like a protective detail to remove him (and the other workers) from the scene. So in my opinion, he has a police escort as opposed to being a suspect or key witness. By some accounts, the Dallas police had cause to actually arrest Shelley ... according to journalist Elzie Glaze, Shelley had confided to him in 1975 that the DPD had formally charged him with the President's murder. Although Shelley arrived at DPD offices about 1:30pm, he was not allowed to leave until 5pm (as documented in WC records) but not before submitting a second affidavit. He also allegedly told a story about being CIA, which seems far-fetched. His Warren Commission testimony takes the reader in a different direction:

Mr. BALL - Now, did the police come into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast.

Mr. BALL - Did you go with them any place?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.

Mr. BALL - Did you go up on the sixth floor?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.

There were six TSBD employees assigned to lay new flooring on the fifth and sixth floors from late October until November 22... thery were under the supervision of Shelley and Truly who were described as building managers working for the landlord. They all look mightly suspicious to me, especially Bill Shelley.

[Thomas Graves]

Gene,

Even if Shelley, Arce, and Williams were part of the conspiracy, why would the bad guys want to "remove" them (and several other TSBD employees) "from the scene" several minutes after the assassination?

How would that help keep the lid on the conspiracy?

All of their co-workers already knew that Shelley, Arce, Williams, Lovelady, et. al. were at work that day.

They all returned to work in the days following the assassination, didn't they?

What purpose would it serve the leaders of the conspiracy to "remove them from the scene," several minutes after the assassination?

To keep them from compulsively volunteering that they had killed the president?

To prevent their being recognized as the killers by their co-workers?

To prevent them from compulsively going back to their respective "posts" and reenacting their "glorious deeds"?

Or did they simply look too guilty to be allowed to remain "at the scene?"

Were the bad guys planning on flying Shelley, Arce, and Williams, et. al., to Mexico or Canada and disposing of them there, but then the pilot called in sick?

Or drive them down to the Texas Theatre for the afternoon matinee but forgot to bring money for the tickets?

Hmmm. Was Danny Arce packing a Johnson 30.06 under that raincoat?

--Tommy

P.S. I'm not saying that Shelley, Arce, Lovelady, et. al., weren't part of the conspiracy. I'm just saying that even if they were, it wouldn't have made much sense for the bad guys to, as you say, "spirit them away from the scene," especially as late as some forty-five minutes after the assassination.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Gene Kelly]

Tommy:

Good challenge, and all good points... now my brain hurts. Thinking less 'conspiratorially', several of those guys don't look the part (e.g. BRW, Lovelady) but others - Shelley, Arce - bear some more scrutiny. And I don't think any of them are shooters or plotters... if anything, they were used inside the TSBD to plant evidence, perhaps construct a stage effect sniper's nest, allow others to get down the stairs/elevators and out the back door, etc. Call-in to their control on where the patsy was, and where he was headed. They all knew Oswald in some fashion (albeit for a month or so). Perhaps they were the "convoy" (using a Garrison term) to get the patsy to the next destination.

I do think Shelley's story and testimony are inconsistent, and his quick dash over to the rail yards is interesting. Why did police take them down for "questioning" (as opposed to others)? Did they look or act suspicious? Not everybody got a ride downtown that day, but these guys did. Perhaps a reason to take them downtown (away from the scene) is to control their statements and the story line... all a part of the grand control of evidence and "witnesses". Admittedly, my scenario for this would also require that the escorts (i.e. DPD) were also co-opted or bad guys. Do you not think that in some crime scenes, the perpetrator stays at the scene, and acts as a witness?

Let me try Reductio ad absurdum (arguing the opposite to prove a point): if you for example buy into the posit that Oswald is Prayer Man -- and that he was actually in that alcove/on the steps -- then why do Lovelady and Shelley not acknowledge his presence? We can't have it both ways, if the central question of this thread (PM) is true.

Gene