Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Thomas Graves]

Gene,

"Taken in for questioning" was a very poor choice of words on my part.

I should have said "taken in to give affidavits."

For some strange reason I can't copy and paste the URL here, but to see Bill Shelley's affidavit which was taken on 11/22/63 at the police department, some seven blocks from Dealey Plaza, google " 'William H Shelley' " and 'affidavit.'

The most interesting part is at the end where he says he turned the guarding of the elevator over to Jack Dougherty.

Notaries Mary Rattan and Patsy Collins took a lot of affidavits that afternoon at the police department. Maybe that's why Shelley was allegedly "held" there from around 1:30 until around 5:00?

BTW, It's too bad journalist Elzie Glaze didn't ask Bill Shelley why Shelley was (according to Glaze) charged very early on with killing JFK. It seems to me that that would have been the natural follow-up question for a journalist to ask.

Did Glaze happen to tape record Shelley's telling him he was so charged, or do we just have to take Glaze's word for it?

--Tommy

Edited February 12, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[David Josephs]

Tommy & Gene...

Not sure how we go from discussing evidence to SPECULATING ABOUT WHAT PEOPLE THOUGHT by seeing them in a photo or film... ???

Stating that things don't make "Much Sense" when the world where operations of this sort live are akin to Alice's Looking Glass... where up is down etc..., would require us to know what SENSE was in this "plan" to begin with, no? We are talking about killing the POTUS - are things supposed to MAKE SENSE in the plan to "after the fact outside observers" like us ???

If SHELLEY is not the man in the necktie behind Lovelady, 1) where is he and 2) who is the man in the tie?

If BUELL is seen in Darnell at the top of the stairs with Prayerman in the corner - where is LOVELADY (was it him or Arce that walks off with Shelley?)

If BUELL is at the top of the stairs as witnesses testify to... where is he in Altgens?

LOVELADY and Prayerman are seen together

BUELL and Prayerman are seen together

TIEMAN is gone in Darnell

- has the SHELLEY/ARCE pair been confirmed? I've looked at the gif a number of times and am at a loss for how those two can be positively ID'd... and help?

Not a single TSBD witness mistakes LOVELADY for OSWALD... nor comes forward to state the FBI changed their testimony - that they saw OSWALD not Lovelady.

It appears to me that the bright light on Prayerman could be a wrist watch on his RIGHT hand... suggesting the person is LEFT-HANDED...

Agree?

[Gene Kelly]

David:

I agree this is all simply speculation... and for me, the imagination does take over. I'm simply saying that Shelley is a person of interest. He seems inconsistent, suspicious, and turns up in some interesting stories and places in the critical hour or so after the shooting. That's as far as I can take it... unless others can add more about him. Regarding the Glaze interview and the alleged statements that Shelley later made, I'm going on the previous work by Weston.

As far as watches and left vs. right, I've seen and heard that comment before (i.e. one wears his watch on the opposite wrist) but not sure that I'd agree with it. It is a generalization... I know right-handed people who wear their watch on the right wrist (e.g. pencil-pushers like me). This came up recently in discussions I've had (unrelated to JFK) and there was not a consensus on this practice. However, if you are a worker who performs manual labor (e.g. carpenters or painters), they either take the watch off completely, or do wear it on the opposite wrist. So, it's not a bad assumption to make that PM is a southpaw.

This begs the question of what specifically did Oswald do for those 3 weeks prior at TSBD? Did he lift boxes, move books or was he part of the plywood floor project? He worked in the "Miscellaneous Dept." ... doing what?

Gene

[Larry Hancock]

Gene, I think you will find that Oswald worked as an "order filler" pulling books. My recollection of hos work clipboard is that he was supposed to be working at pulling books to fill shipments on Nov. 22. That would be a job that would take him across all the upper floors where the books were stacked on a regular basis. I'd also assume it would take him down to shipping after he had done his pulls. Actually that would probably be a more "flexible" job than working on the flooring as he would be moving around and up and down routinely rather than being stuck in one area working on the floor.

As to the watches, I'm right handed but always wore my watch on the "wrong" hand - after being clumsy enough to break a couple of glass watch crystals...

-- Larry

[David Josephs]

David:

I agree this is all simply speculation... and for me, the imagination does take over. I'm simply saying that Shelley is a person of interest. He seems inconsistent, suspicious, and turns up in some interesting stories and places in the critical hour or so after the shooting. That's as far as I can take it... unless others can add more about him. Regarding the Glaze interview and the alleged statements that Shelley later made, I'm going on the previous work by Weston.

As far as watches and left vs. right, I've seen and heard that comment before (i.e. one wears his watch on the opposite wrist) but not sure that I'd agree with it. It is a generalization... I know right-handed people who wear their watch on the right wrist (e.g. pencil-pushers like me). This came up recently in discussions I've had (unrelated to JFK) and there was not a consensus on this practice. However, if you are a worker who performs manual labor (e.g. carpenters or painters), they either take the watch off completely, or do wear it on the opposite wrist. So, it's not a bad assumption to make that PM is a southpaw.

This begs the question of what specifically did Oswald do for those 3 weeks prior at TSBD? Did he lift boxes, move books or was he part of the plywood floor project? He worked in the "Miscellaneous Dept." ... doing what?

Gene

Completely Agree Gene... I was directing my comments mostly to Tommy who likes to ask WHY questions that appear to me as rhetorical where only speculative answers are possible.... how can possible know what people are thinking at any given moment based on a photo or film?

Shelley and by default Truly appear to be aware of something - and could have been "recruited" out of patriotism to keep an eye on the returnee from Russia... or at least be wary that their "other" activities were being watched.

That Truly backs Baker's revised story is imo, very telling.

I only throw out the watch observation as we attempt to narrow down the possibilities... Oswald arrest photos show his bracelet on the left and nothing on his right wrist...

yet my questions remain unanswered...

Specifically BUELL and why he does not appear in Altgens based on the testimony that he was right there.... and is obviously not Prayerman.

This has become a nagging thought... who IS that person?

DJ

[Thomas Graves]

David,

Exactly.

How can anyone assume that Shelley, Arce, and Williams were guilty and "escaped" with the help of the bad guys based on a photo which shows them being escorted to a police car by policemen and detectives some forty-five minutes after the assassination?

--Tommy

PS A couple of friendly suggestions:

Try "proofreading" your posts before and after you post them.

For example, "How can (sic) possible (sic) know..."

And please stop using upper case letters so much to emphasize your points. (It makes you look a bit like a fanatic.)

Thank you.

Edited February 15, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[David Josephs]

David,

So how can one assume that Shelley, Arce, and Williams are guilty and are "escaping" with the help of the bad guys based on a photo which shows them being escorted to a police car by policemen and detectives some forty-five minutes after the assassination?

--Tommy

PS A couple of friendly suggestions:

Try "proofreading" your posts before and after you post them.

For example, "How can possible (sic) know..."

And please stop using upper case letters so much to emphasize your points. (It makes you look a bit like a fanatic.)

Thank you.

"One" doesn't assume anything Tommy... Start with that. One investigates the information for authenticity, corroboration and reliability FIRST... it appears YOU assumed three men are guilty and/or "escaping" based on a photo... YOU wrote this, right, not me...

Even if Shelley, Arce, and Williams were part of the conspiracy, why would the bad guys want to "remove" them (and several other TSBD employees) "from the scene" several minutes after the assassination?

Why oh why - right Tommy? What could possibly be on the bad guy's minds - since it makes no sense to you... and how did you go from "several minutes" to "45 minutes" ?? Poetic license ?

So what is important to YOU ??... Don't use color, Don't use capitals, Don't include a mispelled word...

My friendly suggestion? Concern yourself with the quality of your content, and the depth of your research rather than the manner inwhich I write my posts - K?

Maybe, I say MAYBE you can look at your WHY questions with a thought about WHAT the action's desired results were... In your one assumption you tie these three men to the DPD and the conspiracy... Shelley may very well have been instrumental, he was Oswald's direct supervisor, one may ask WHY Shelley didn't mention GIVENS to Truly... or HOW is it possible for Shelley to have been aware of all the TSBD employees to single out Oswald... an entire building of people and the only one singled out as missing is Oswald... and BEFORE the rifle is found... (Truly's account of telling Fritz is real evidence of a REAL situation... not assumptions made about a photo) The TSBD was referred to as a Spider's Web since it appears so many people and events are connected... Shelley & Truly are instrumental in focusing the initial search on Oswald - THAT makes them suspect...

Maybe you can take it from there... in a new thread...

I want to offer this subject as an example - you post the following without taking even a second to dig just a little further... http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5769 is a thread called "GLAZE LETTERS" by Weston right here on this forum... It not only answers your question but provides some great input from others who also question the info Glaze provided about SHELLEY... Duke Lane's post is very interesting. Took all of 1 minute to find...

Notaries Mary Rattan and Patsy Collins took a lot of affidavits that afternoon at the police department. Maybe that's why Shelley was allegedly "held" there from around 1:30 until around 5:00?

BTW, It's too bad journalist Elzie Glaze didn't ask Bill Shelley why Shelley was (according to Glaze) charged very early on with killing JFK. It seems to me that that would have been the natural follow-up question for a journalist to ask.

Did Glaze happen to tape record Shelley's telling him he was so charged, or do we just have to take Glaze's word for it?

Glaze asked the woman if she and her co-worker were the only ones subjected to this kind of treatment. No, they were not the only ones. Background checks on new employees were done as a routine procedure at the Book Depository. After listening to the woman's account, Glaze decided to check it out. He contacted her former supervisor, William Shelley, and asked to meet with him. Shelley agreed to this request and even allowed the reporter to take notes and use a tape recorder. The meeting took place at the Book Depository warehouse near the intersection of Royal Lane and Interstate 35 on the far northwest side of Dallas. (The company had moved from its old location on 411 Elm Street in 1970.) The information that Glaze was gathering must have been extensive, for the two men had numerous meetings together. Yet only a few disclosures are provided in the letters. The most significant one appears in the 1989 letter: "Mr. Shelley claims to have been an intelligence officer during World War II and thereafter joined the CIA." This extraordinary revelation goes far in explaining the mysteries of the Book Depository, and a discussion of its implications will be given later in this article.

Shelley told Glaze that he had been the supervisor of Lee Harvey Oswald. After the assassination, the Dallas police placed Shelley under arrest and formally charged him with the murder of the President. (No mention was made by Glaze as to why Shelley had been arrested, nor did he say what connection this arrest had with the arrest of Oswald.) The charges against Shelley were soon dropped, and he was released. Since that day, at various times, journalists representing several newspapers and magazines approached him with offers of huge sums of money for his personal account of the assassination. These offers were all turned down. When Glaze tried to get permission to quote him in his own article, Shelley refused and insisted that even his name was not to be printed.

Tommy -

I realize looking for misspellings takes time and effort from actually researching the evidence... but hey, give it a rest and do your homework first.... your credibility improves by posting research and evidence, not by asking rhetorical "why" questions and offering advice to others on the way they post.... I do what I do to emphazise what I want... sorry that is lost on you.

This is from the index of the Dallas Archives... I don't know how you do it, but I keep access to GIGS of data and links to pertinent resources with me when I post... how do YOU do it?

(PM me with that answer, I'm actually quite interested)

Here is a link to the 2nd Shelley affidavit http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0466-001.gif also from the 22nd yet for some reason not included in the first affidavit...

The way the DPD spreads these out over 4 boxes is kinda strange but runs rampant...

William B. Frazier Count 8 02 02 016 Affidavit In Any Fact-typed 11/22/63 William H. Shelley Carbon Copy Signed Statement as an employee of the Texas School Book Depository and supervisor of Lee Harvey Oswald 02 03 005 Affidavit In Any Fact-typed 11/22/63 William H. Shelley Carbon Copy Signed and Annotated Statement as an employee of the Texas School Book Depository and supervisor of Lee Harvey Oswald 01 06 009 Affidavit In Any Fact-handwritten 11/22/63 William H. Shelley Original Statement as an employee of the Texas School Book Depository 02 03 004 Affidavit In Any Fact-typed 11/22/63 William H. Shelley Original Statement as an employee of the Texas School Book Depository and supervisor of Lee Harvey Oswald 02 02 015 Affidavit In Any Fact-typed 11/22/63 William H. Shelley Original Signed Statement as a witness to the shooting of the President 05 02 056 Affidavit In Any Fact-typed 11/22/63 William H. Shelley Photocopy Poor Quality Statement as an employee of the Texas School Book Depository and supervisor of Lee Harvey Oswald 05 02 057 Affidavit In Any Fact-typed 11/22/63 William H. Shelley Photocopy Poor Quality Statement as an employee of the Texas School Book Depository and supervisor of Lee Harvey Oswald 15 01 057 Affidavit In Any Fact-typed 11/22/63 William H. Shelley Photocopy Poor Quality Statement as an employee of the Texas School Book Depository and supervisor of Lee Harvey Oswald 15 01 058 Affidavit In Any Fact-typed 11/22/63 William H. Shelley Photocopy Poor Quality Statement as an employee of the Texas School Book Depository and supervisor of Lee Harvey Oswald

Y'know Tommy... I have nothing against you or anyone else... You want to continue asking rhetorical WHY questions, so be it... I'll try harder to just look the other way.

It's too bad you don't like the look of my posts and think because I have a misspelled word ... actually I have no idea what you think... but you evidently find it important to point out these minor mistakes rather than address the topic and questions posed -

The thread is called OSWALD LEAVING TSBD? - started with the Darnell photo with PRAYERMAN circled asking the Thread's Topic question... and you're talking about Shelley/Arce/Williams getting into a police car...

======================

Back on TOPIC:

Mr. BALL. Where were you standing when you heard the shots?

Mr. ARCE. I was standing in front of the Texas School Book Depository. I was on that grassy area part in front.

Mr. BALL. You were not on the sidewalk?

Mr. ARCE. No, I was on the sidewalk, then I walked up to the grass to get a higher view. and still couldn't see.

So Prayerman was not ARCE. Agreed?

Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them.

Mr. BALL - And who was out there?

Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.

Mr. BALL - You were standing where?

Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.

Can you point out WESLEY FRAZIER in Altgens? I can't. Can you find Wesley in ANY image prior to Darnell? Yet we see WESLEY and PRAYERMAN together... so he's not him.

VILES maybe? "Kounas, Dolores Arlene McGraw-Hill Publishing employee, third floor Elm & Houston SW corner with Roberta Parker and Lloyd Viles" Is this correct?

Have we been able to put VILES in his place in DP? (I will continue to search the images for him in a group with 2 women)

Do you think SHELLEY is TIEMAN behind Lovelady?

IMO Thomas, THESE are the important questions of the thread... Is there anything you can add to help us understand who it could or could not be...

or you just gonna fine tooth my post for spelling errors?

[Thomas Graves]

David,

Let's get a few things straight.

1) I didn't assume that Shelley and Arce (and Bonnie Ray Williams) were "escaping" based on a photo, Gene Kelley did.

If you read his posts, you'll realize that Gene had mistakenly assumed that Shelley and Arce had walked together to the railway yard / parking lot immediately after the assassination, when in reality it was Shelley and Lovelady who did that. Then, when Gene saw the photo of Shelley and Arce being escorted to a police car by a couple of policemen and detectives, he evidently assumed that the photograph was taken just a couple of minutes after Shelley's and Arce's (nonexistent) walk to the railway yard / parking lot and that they were "escaping from the scene" with the help of some bad cops. Gene tried to support speculation / assertion by pointing out the fact that Shelley gave conflicting testimony after the assassination, the fact that Shelley was wearing a suit (of all things), and the "fact" that Shelley "looked guilty" in the photograph.

2) You're right. I shouldn't have asked, "How can one assume...," To keep from confusing you I should have said, "How can anyone assume... ."

If I'd wanted to be really blunt, I would have asked "How can Gene Kelley assume...?".

3) I changed my words from "several minutes after the assassination" to "some forty-five minutes after the assassination" because I'd read somewhere that Shelley arrived at the police station around 1:30. Since the assassination occurred at 12:30, and since it might have taken as long as fifteen minutes for the police car with Shelley, Arce, Williams, Senkel, and Brown to arrive at the police department some seven traffic-jammed blocks away from Dealey Plaza, I figure they got into that police car some forty-five minutes after the assassination.

Sound reasonable?

4) I had already read that part about Elzie Glaze's alleged tape recording of his interviews with Bill Shelley.

Don't you think it strange that Elzie evidently didn't ask Shelley why he'd been charged with killing the president?

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to read the transcripts of those alleged tape recordings?

5) It's not your spelling that suffers from your great haste in getting your longish posts up on the forum in a "timely" manner, David. It's your GRAMMAR and SYNTAX that suffer when you leave out words, thereby rendering your posts even more difficult to comprehend than they would OTHERWISE BE. (lol)

Sincerely,

--Tommy

PS I just now tried to send you a PM but your mailbox is full.

PPS Re: "Back on Topic," it seems that you're trying to prove that Bill Shelley and Wesley Buell Frazier couldn't possibly have been where they said they were during the assassination because they (apparently) didn't show up in Altgens 6. Is that correct?

Yes, David, WE AGREE (lol) that "Prayer Man" was not Danny Arce.

FWIW, I personally think that "Prayer Man" was LEE HARVEY OSWALD.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[David Josephs]

I originally put my reply to your post at the top of mine but thought better of it... it's at the bottom while I focus on the thread and the questions posed....

Take it or leave it Tommy... I'll continue to focus on CONTENT while you can play Emily Post.

I posted a few questions to help find the identity of PRAYERMAN - you know, the direction this thread took after BK identified an OSWALD looking person on the steps...

Do you have anything to contribute to our understanding of THAT time period - of who ELSE that person could be other than either Harvey, Lee or ???

Of where Viles was, is SHELLEY=SUIT&TIEMAN and where WESLEY is in Altgens as it is said he was up there with the rest of them...

Mr. BALL - Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there.
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.
Mr. BALL - Were you near the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there.
Mr. BALL - One step down from the top of the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.
Mr. BALL - By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to the Building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Shown in this picture?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here and show us about where you were standing? http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0491b.htm
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here.

Mr. BALL - Put a mark there. Your name is Frazier, put an "F" there for Frazier.
Mr. FRAZIER - O.K.

It appears there is SOME mark by the front door on CE362... if that's an "F" then where is he in the photo?

WHERE IS LOVELADY in Darnell?

Y'know Tommy - enough of this already... K? You do your thing and I'll do mine...10+ years I've been posting on these forums - thru trolls, attacks, ad homs and the rest...

Take your game up a few notches and concentrate on YOUR work... and I'll do the same..

Peace

DJ

======

Tommy -

Thank for straightening "a few things" out....

Your original content choice of YOU versus ANYONE ... completely changes the tone and point of your post... your CONTENT needs your attention more than my spelling or capitalization Tommy....

If you truly wish to be clear about what you post... maybe YOU could take a minute to reread so you don't have to repeatedly make changes to match your INTENT.

I know what Gene said... YOU posted that I assumed something that I had nothing to do with... again... CONTENT is more important than spelling Tommy.

your #3) You read that someone else CLAIMED what SHELLEY said yet never produced a tape to confirm it - even though one was done at the time...

Is it really that hard for you to admit you didn't even take a second to look up GLAZE - which in turn would have lead to a complete recourse on his "letters" and "interview" about SHELLEY... with counter point and evidence?

But, not so much... in your HASTE to play spelling nazi - you ask others to do the work for you... The Dallas Evidence Archives is a great resource Tommy... as are many, many other places on the internet...

But it's not going to jump up and bite you on the A$$... you have to go look.

#4) - Haste has nothing to do with spelling errors Tommy... neither does trying to get posts up "quickly"... spelling mistakes happen - I reread my posts before I submit them...

Again Tommy - those that I correspond with / post with, frequently, have no problems following my work...

You gonna start in on punctuation next?

I'm terribly sorry your comprehending my posts taxes you so... There are times I put alot in them - yet usually I include visuals to help make my point... Visuals I usually create myself.. maybe you've seen some of my work?

Here are 33 pages of that work along with the work of others... http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/dhjosephs/library/#/user/dhjosephs/library/?sort=3&page=1&_suid=13924013348740007970491736441265 you're free to use anything you like - and if there is anything that some image manipulation could help YOU with - in expressing your CONTENT - feel free to ask... I'm glad to help out.

My desire here is to learn more about the case... not berate others over how they express themselves unless they're purely trolling - and we both know of whom I speak.

DJ

[Thomas Graves]

David,

You should read the "PS" and the "PPS" at the bottom of my last post. I was writing the "PPS" while you were composing your diatribe, so you didn't see it.

Sounds like you're calling me a xxxx regarding Glaze. I did look up Glaze (and I read Weston's "The Spider's Web" a long time ago) before I posted. I couldn't find the transcripts of Glaze's alleged tape-recorded interviews with Shelley. Are you saying that such transcripts exist and are viewable on the Internet?

I never posted that I thought you assumed anything, David. Sounds like a bit of paranoia on your part if you don't mind my saying so. I'm guessing that you assumed that I was indirectly responding to something you'd posted on this thread prior to Gene's post # 1415. If I'm right on that, then you're wrong. I didn't read those posts. I skimmed through some of them but didn't read them closely or spend much time on them because I could see that they were trying to incorporate the "Harvey and Lee" argument. But never mind. You probably think I'm lying right now.

The funny thing it that you and I probably agree on more things about the JFK assassination than we disagree about.

Peace brother,

--Tommy

But I gotta ask you, Bro, do you consider leaving words out of posts on a fairly regular basis, obviously by mistake, to be a "spelling" issue?

LOL

Edited February 14, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[David Josephs]

1) PPS Re: "Back on Topic," it seems that you're trying to prove that Bill Shelley and Wesley Buell Frazier couldn't possibly have been where they said they were during the assassination because they (apparently) didn't show up in Altgens 6. Is that correct?

2) Yes, David, WE AGREE (lol) that "Prayer Man" was not Danny Arce.

3) I personally think that "Prayer Man" was Lee Harvey Oswald.

Finally - a conversation about the thread.... (I added the #'s to the quote so I could address them one at a time)

1) How do you arrive at THAT conclusion from what I posted ?

Shelley and Frazier say there were both on the steps at the entrance to the TSBD when the limo passes... We have a photo fo that area from a variety of angles DURING the motorcade... just after it passes the doorway...

Just point them out Tommy - or tell me where YOU think they are... or at least paste in my post where it appears I am trying to PROVE they couldn't possibly be where they said they were...

those again are YOUR words - I am trying to use a process of elimination... would you agree that IF they are where they said they were, we'd be able to find them... and are you telling me that everyone for whom we have evidence from the FBI/DPD as to their location at the time of the shooting is accurate?

Altgens claims to have been 15 feet from JFK at the time of the LAST head shot .... Zfilm, Nix AND Muchmore prove that wrong.... while WCD298 from the FBI corroborates that testimony

Where is the last shot according to the FBI's meticulous reconstruction of the scene? About 15 feet from Altgens and 45 feet further down Elm.

2) Arce not being PRAYERMAN... Is this Arce? If so, he is eliminated... if not... we should try and find him to do so...

3) What evidence helps you come to that conclusion? given the massive number of people walking right by him as they go back into the TSBD... I can understand the FBI/DPD removing all mention of OSWALD on the stairs from the record, but not from people's memories... not a single soul has even come forward to say they said they saw OSWALD on the outside landing at any time... while C.Arnold tells of seeing HARVEY insdie the doors just before the limo arrives at 12:25.... HE easily could have stepped onto the landing... yet he remains there well afterward...

If that is correct... then we have also proven an OSWALD look-alike (LEE?) walking past Reid while HARVEY is out front...

[Thomas Graves]

David,

It SEEMS that you're asking me to make your arguments for you. Instead of asking me these questions, why don't you tell us your "take" on the apparent "fact" that neither Shelley nor Frazier appear in Altgens 6.

Or do you think that they DO appear in Altgens 6?

Or, like Fetzer and Cinque, do you believe that Altgens 6 WAS EDITED?

(My personal FEELING is that they are probably there, but impossible to "make out" or positively identify.

Please don't ask me to provide EVIDENCE to support this FEELING.

After all, it's just a FEELING, David. You know, kinda like AN INTUITION?.)

Perhaps you already HAVE given us your "take" on Shelley and Frazier in Altgens 6, and I missed it because I tend to NOT READ your posts.

And WHY is that?

Because you're always talking about "HARVEY AND LEE." !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL

That's why.

(And NO, I'm NOT going to argue with you about THAT.)

Peace brother,

--Tommy

PS By tweaking my Windows 8 with some other software, I seem to have lost the ability to "copy and paste" in general, or bump my edited posts, or reply to someone else's included post, so I suggest that you go back and re-read them from time to time, especially my recent ones on this thread.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[David Josephs]

I emptied my Inbox so we could PM our conversation - I tried to respond to your PM but:

The following errors were found
The member Thomas Graves cannot receive any new messages
This personal message has not been sent (but I did save it for when you can accept new PMs)

DJ

Wow... What an amazingly pompous a$$ you are Tommy....

First it's "spelling"

Then "grammar" and "syntax"

Then you dont bother to READ the posts anyway - no wonder you get your content wrong so often...

and in the end it's really about your lack of understanding about H&L...

while Gene and so many others understand that like accepting CONSPIRACY, understanding and accepting H&L within the context of the events before, during and afterward actually HELPS in formulating theories about the true nature of the events...

I will leave you with this Tommy and then we're done - and it's related directly to OSWALD as PRAYERMAN... for if REID sees LEE... where was HARVEY...

Mr. BELIN. How did you know the person you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald on the second floor?
Mrs. REID. Because it looked just like him.
Mr. BELIN. You mean the picture with the name Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. REID. Oh, yes.
Mr. BELIN. But you had seen him in the building?
Mrs. REID. Other than that day, sure.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?
Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell?
Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen anyone working at the book depository wearing any kind of a shirt or jacket similar to Commission Exhibit 150 or do you know?
Mrs. REID. No; I do not. I have never, so far as I know ever seen that shirt. I have been asked about that shirt before, I have seen it once before but not since all this happened.

Oswald was charged with the killing of JFK at 11:30pm friday night

At 7am Saturday morning FBI agents sent by HOOVER get Frank Kudlaty to give them the school records for HARVEY OSWALD from STRIPLING JR HIGH in 1954/55.

Which he not only does, but gives them the ORIGINALS... which are never seen again. At this exact time LEE is living on St Mary's with MO at Murtle Evans' place...

You not unerstanding H&L or doing any of the research does not make it wrong Tommy... just makes you uninformed.

So... Why is obtaining the 8 year old JR High School records of the accused assassin one of the most important and first things done less than 12 hours after the man is charged when there is not record ANYWHERE of Oswald attending STRIPLING.... btw - on 11/22/63, HARVEY's "mom" is living at 2220 Thomas... which has a very interesting past...

(all this comes from the Armstrong Archive at Baylor.. one of the most amazing and thorough researchers with which I have ever had the pleasure to discuss the case)

TO: JIM GARRISON, District Attorney

FROM: ANDREW J. SCIAMBRA, Assistant D. A.

RE: Interview of JOSEPH COOPER - Baton Rouge, La.

Relative to LEE HARVEY OSWALD

….COOPER that she is very suspiciousof FRED KORTH and told him that LEE' s discharge from the

Marine Corps was handled by FRED KORTH.

COOPER said he found out that the house MARGUERITE

was living in at the time of the assassination belonged to

a close friend of FRED KORTH, a MRS. MARY E. MCCARTHY, JR.

COOPER said MARGUERITE also told him that FRED KORTH played

a part in LEE's life but did not explain any further.

Edited February 14, 2014 by David Josephs

[Thomas Graves]

I emptied my Inbox so we could PM our conversation - I tried to respond to your PM but:

The following errors were found

The member Thomas Graves cannot receive any new messages

This personal message has not been sent (but I did save it for when you can accept new PMs)

DJ

Thanks for the feedback, David.

That's strange because I deleted a few old messages about a week ago and have only received one message since then. I guess I'll have to delete some more...

--Tommy

Edited February 14, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

Yes, David,

I'm "an amazingly pompous A$$," as you put it.

But you, sir, are AB$OLUTELY IN$UFFERABLE.

--Tommy

PS Don't bother to send me any more harassing PM's.

PPS, I never said anything negative about your "spelling." In fact, your spelling is exemplary.

That's funny!

You're the one who introduced the concept of spelling into this argument. A good example of your tendency to minimize (when it suits your purposes; after all, anyone's spelling mistakes are less serious than their grammar and syntax mistakes, especially when caused by unintentionally leaving words out), to "spin," and to try to "turn the tables on your opponent," I guess.

Hint: In the Search This Topic box, type in the word "spelling" and see what you come up with. The only times I mentioned the word was when I said, "It's not your spelling that suffers..." [emphasis added] and when I asked

you the question, "Do you consider leaving words out of posts on a fairly regular basis, obviously by mistake, to be a 'spelling' issue?" [emphasis added]

Edited February 14, 2014 by Thomas Graves