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The "Deputy Sheriffs" Mooney met on the Fourth Floor


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I have taken a renewed interest in Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney, the man who discovered the sniper's nest on the 6th floor of the TSBD. I began asking questions about his testimony to the WC on another thread and realized I was distracting attention away from the topic of that thread. Therefore, I will begin a new thread.

Below is a portion of Mooney's WC testimony describing his ascent to the 6th floor via elevator and stairway. Most notable is his encounter on the stairway, at the level of the 4th floor, with two men he believed to be plainclothes deputy sheriffs, the same as himself.

"Mr. Mooney - We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance.

Officer Vickery and Webster said, "We will take the staircase there in the corner.

I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big elevator there. So I jumped on it. And about that time two women come running and said, "we want to go to the second floor."

I said, "All right, get on, we are going."

Mr. BALL - Which elevator did you get on?

Mr. MOONEY - It was the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. BALL - There are two elevators there?

Mr. MOONEY - I found that out later. I didn't know it at that time.

Mr. BALL - You took the west one, or the east one?

Mr. MOONEY - I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase.

Mr. BALL - Did it work with a push button?

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

Mr. BALL - You were alone?

Mr. MOONEY - I was alone at that time.

Mr. BALL - Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top.

Mr. BALL - Were there any other officers on the floor?

Mr. MOONEY - I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had been other officers up there. But I didn't see them. And I begin criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open windows---some of them were open over on the south side."

I have a host of questions regarding this testimony but will limit myself to just a few, at the moment.

1. In November, 1963, how many plainclothes deputy sheriffs were employed by the Dallas Sheriff's Dept.?

2. Were these two "officers" ever identified? Was any effort ever made to ID them?

3. Did Deputy Sheriffs Vickery and Webster, assuming they were ascending the staircase ahead of Mooney, encounter these "officers", as well? Did they give statements or testimony? Was an encounter with these two "officers" mentioned in their accounts?

4. Assuming he was hunting for an unidentified assassin, and he was unsure as to the identity of these two "officers", would it not be appropriate to challenge them and ask for ID? Might it even be appropriate to detain these men?

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I have been attempting to make inquiries with the Dallas County Sheriff's Department, with little success. I repeatedly get transferred to someone's line, who is inevitably never there, and get asked to leave a number they can call me back on, which never happens.

As well as the questions in my opening post, I would like to know if "plainclothes deputy sheriff" holds some special status, similar to detective, or if any deputy out of uniform is called a plainclothes deputy sheriff.

I believe finding the identity of these two men Mooney met is very important, easily as important as identifying the two Secret Service "Agents" met at the rear of the TSBD by Sgt. Harkness of the DPD shortly after Mooney met them as deputy sheriffs.

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Robert

Have you read this thread?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19782&hl=%2Bdesham+%2Bdenham#entry263986

Ian

Edited by Ian Kingsbury
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Although this topic impacts the "Oswald Leaving the TSBD?" thread, I am going to post this item here for now.

There are numerous sightings of "Two Men" in the TSBD within minutes after shots were fired at the motorcade.

• Marion Baker sees two unidentified white men by the 1st floor elevator as he and Truly head towards the NW stairs

• Officer Mooney passes two unidentified men in plain clothes descending the stairs as he is ascending the stairs from the 2nd floor.

• Vicky Adams sees two men she identifies as Shelley and Lovelady by the elevators on the 1st floor when she re-enters the building.

• Vicky Adams sees two unidentified men in the stalled 2nd floor elevator moments after Mooney's encounter.

• Officer Harkness encounters 2 unidentified men who flash SS Credentials to him on the North Loading Dock by the door, shortly after Adams encounter.

Mooney and Adams (in the elevator) believe they see plain clothes police officers. Harkness believes he is looking at plain clothes Secret Service Officers.

As posted in a separate thread, the timing of these sightings and their close spatial proximity give good reason to believe Mooney, Adams, and Harkness all saw the same two men, who we know are imposters posing as SS agents.

The Baker and Adams sightings of two white males by the 1st floor elevators are questionable.

In her original affidavit, Vicky Adams never mentioned seeing Shelley and Lovelady by the elevator. Leavelle interviewed her again later in December claiming that the original notes had been "lost in a fire". This is when the reference to Shelley and Lovelady appears. Adams told author Bary Ernst that she does not recall ever telling Leavelle anything about Shelley and Lovelady. Therefore, this appears to be the reason for the additional interview. Now the question is, Why would the authorities want Shelley and Lovelady to be at the elevators when Vicky Adams came down to the first floor? Note that Shelley's affidavit of Nov 22 states that he went to guard the elevators a few minutes after the shooting. Lovelady's WC testimony likewise places himself and Shelley at the elevators some 4-5 minutes after shots are fired. We know Baker's testimony evolved to fit the WC storyline over time. Putting the pieces together, by March and April of 1964, Baker's two white males become Lovelady and Shelley. And the whole point was to discredit Adams testimony of going down the rear stairs immediately after the shots were fired, and seeing no one.

It makes sense to me not to confuse the two white males by the 1st floor elevator with the very intriguing sightings of the 2 plain clothes men seen in the stairway, in the elevator on the 2nd floor, and shortly thereafter, on the dock "guarding" the rear door.

If we add these two unidentified men to the sightings of 3 unidentified men seen on the 6th floor, and the "Tan Jacket" Man seen on the 3rd or 4th floor, a picture of an operational team begins to emerge.

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It is quite likely that the shooters wore police uniforms or "secret service" type outfits (i.e. Dark suit,white shirt, dark tie).

This explains the many citings of "police types in uniform and plain clothes" both within the building, behind the picket fence,on the street confiscating film, etc. It was the perfect disguise. Someone obtained some SS badges,and voila, that was that.

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I love these scenarios being kicked around here

Lots of knowledgeable creative thinking

From what I see

There were no shots ever fired

From the TSBD

And no need for conspirators to hang around

Except to keep an eye on the movements

Of Prayer Man

To see how they could pin another murder

On him.

But seemingly everyone here agrees

He was involved in a conspiracy

To frame himself.

Someone is missing something....

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I love these scenarios being kicked around here

Lots of knowledgeable creative thinking

From what I see

There were no shots ever fired

From the TSBD

And no need for conspirators to hang around

Except to keep an eye on the movements

Of Prayer Man

To see how they could pin another murder

On him.

But seemingly everyone here agrees

He was involved in a conspiracy

To frame himself.

Someone is missing something....

Hello Raymond

I agree with you in that there may very well have been no shots fired from the TSBD, and Oswald may also have been a totally innocent man. This would, however, require false evidence to be supplied by several people in the TSBD, especially those three employees on the 5th floor.

In the Darnell film, we also see two men (one in a Stetson) standing in front of the TSBD and looking up towards its upper floors. Many people take this as proof of shots being fired from the SN on the 6th floor but, I feel there may be another explanation.

Many witnesses described the first shot as sounding more like a firecracker than a rifle shot and there could be a good reason for this. There may have been a shooter high up on the Dal-Tex Building firing a rifle fitted with a suppressor. Contrary to popular belief, suppressed rifles firing bullets travelling at supersonic velocities are not totally silenced. While the muzzle blast is silenced, the bullet is still travelling faster than the speed of sound and, like a jet going over Mach I, will break the sound barrier; making a definite "crack" to anyone standing in the vicinity.

The purpose of suppressing a high powered rifle is not to totally eliminate sound (unless, of course, you are shooting at a target a few hundred yards away and the bullet drops to subsonic velocities before arriving at its target) but to hide the location of the shooter.

It may have worked very well. The two men on the sidewalk may have heard the supersonic crack of the bullet as it travelled over their heads from the Dal-Tex Building and been fooled into thinking the shots originated from the TSBD.

Also, there are the pigeons, but we can discuss them in the next post.

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I love these scenarios being kicked around here

Lots of knowledgeable creative thinking

From what I see

There were no shots ever fired

From the TSBD

And no need for conspirators to hang around

Except to keep an eye on the movements

Of Prayer Man

To see how they could pin another murder

On him.

But seemingly everyone here agrees

He was involved in a conspiracy

To frame himself.

Someone is missing something....

Ray,

I don't believe everyone here has the same view on Lee Oswald.

Speaking only for myself, I do not believe he was involved as a "conspirator" to assassinate the President.

Oswald was manipulated and framed to be the patsy in the assassination of JFK, by the real conspirators.

In that respect, I think he is completely innocent.

But I do believe he had some knowledge of something. I view the trip to the Texas Theater as an evasive action.

There are a variety of possibilities as to what that something could be, imo:

Did he gain knowledge of an assasination plot? (Remember someone named "Lee" phoning a tip to Chicago before the JFK trip there?)

Did he believe there was an abort team in Dealey Plaza, or even in the TSBD (ala Tosh Plumlee's story)?

Was he doing surveillance on someone in the TSBD (as a low level FBI informant)?

Was he following instructions to meet someone?

Was it something even less trivial than anything I have listed above?

I am sure there are more possibilities.

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I love these scenarios being kicked around here

Lots of knowledgeable creative thinking

From what I see

There were no shots ever fired

From the TSBD

And no need for conspirators to hang around

Except to keep an eye on the movements

Of Prayer Man

To see how they could pin another murder

On him.

But seemingly everyone here agrees

He was involved in a conspiracy

To frame himself.

Someone is missing something....

Ray,

I don't believe everyone here has the same view on Lee Oswald.

Speaking only for myself, I do not believe he was involved as a "conspirator" to assassinate the President.

Oswald was manipulated and framed to be the patsy in the assassination of JFK, by the real conspirators.

In that respect, I think he is completely innocent.

But I do believe he had some knowledge of something. I view the trip to the Texas Theater as an evasive action.

There are a variety of possibilities as to what that something could be, imo:

Did he gain knowledge of an assasination plot? (Remember someone named "Lee" phoning a tip to Chicago before the JFK trip there?)

Did he believe there was an abort team in Dealey Plaza, or even in the TSBD (ala Tosh Plumlee's story)?

Was he doing surveillance on someone in the TSBD (as a low level FBI informant)?

Was he following instructions to meet someone?

Was it something even less trivial than anything I have listed above?

I am sure there are more possibilities.

Hello Richard

I agree with your views on Lee completely, and this is what makes this case such a fascinating enigma.

Fifty years from now, researchers will still likely be asking, who the hell was Lee Harvey Oswald, anyways?

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