JFK Case Exhibit One - Bullet Shells

[Robert Prudhomme]

Tell me, Bill, are you aware that, following the removal of Benito Mussolini (Il Duce) in southern Italy in mid-1943, the Italian Co-Belligerent Army was formed? And are you also aware that these former Axis soldiers, mostly armed with 6.5mm Carcano rifles, fought alongside Allied troops in Italy (and elsewhere) against Fascist forces, and at one point accounted for one-eighth of all Allied combat troops in Italy?

[William Kelly]

Tell me, Bill, are you aware that, following the removal of Benito Mussolini (Il Duce) in southern Italy in mid-1943, the Italian Co-Belligerent Army was formed? And are you also aware that these former Axis soldiers, mostly armed with 6.5mm Carcano rifles, fought alongside Allied troops in Italy (and elsewhere) against Fascist forces, and at one point accounted for one-eighth of all Allied combat troops in Italy?

Well, I know Manlicher Carcanos were used by rebels in the recent Libyan revolution, and that in 1943 Jame Jesus Angleton was the chief OSS officer in Italy.

And that there's an FBI document D79 that says "Two empty boxes marked 6.5 Italian Ammo," but no such boxes are in evidence, though the other two items mentioned with D79 - a Minox camera and something else that do exist.

And I have found out that one of the three shells found in the Sixth Floor Sniper's nest did have a dent on it, and this was the one that was kept back from the FBI for a few days before being turned over to them.

I think these shells have marks that indicate that they were run through the chamber of the rifle also found on the sixth floor.

And I'm still looking for the WC Doc - probably FBI that says a trace on the bullets indicated they were in a batch sold to USMC in the 1950s.

BK

[Robert Prudhomme]

And you've never heard of the possibility that the Western Cartridge Co. manufactured 6.5mm Carcano cartridges under contract to the US Dept. of Defense, prior to 1944?

[William Kelly]

And you've never heard of the possibility that the Western Cartridge Co. manufactured 6.5mm Carcano cartridges under contract to the US Dept. of Defense, prior to 1944?

No, what do you know? Are you going somewhere with this?

[Robert Prudhomme]

If you can find a photo of a WCC 6.5x52mm cartridge, you will see, on the base, that WCC did not stamp a date of manufacture on these bullets, as is the norm for military ammunition. All that is stamped on the base is "WCC" and "6.5mm".

[Robert Prudhomme]

So, the likelihood of 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges being manufactured, in large quantities by the WCC for the US Defense Dept. during WWII, to arm our new found friends in the Italian Co-Belligerent Army is far greater than the same cartridges being manufactured in 1954 for some bizarre scheme cooked up by the CIA to aid some anti-Communist faction in the Third World. There are several letters from the Olin Corp. supporting the manufacture of 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges prior to 1944.

Now, before anyone gets excited and tells me I'm full of baloney, think about this. None of the cartridges in Lot 6000, 6001, 6002 and 6003 had anything stamped on their bases except "WCC" and "6.5mm". As there is no proof any of the pre-1940 lots of ammunition ever made it into the hands of the Italians, and next to nothing is known about the clandestine order for the USMC in 1954, who can say when the cartridges sold by WCC in 1954 were manufactured? And, who can say they were in their original boxes and nor re-packaged for the USMC?

Whatever army ended up with the WCC 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges, I'm sure they were thrilled to death when it was discovered the cartridges came without a clip and the Carcanos were reduced to being single shot rifles.

[William Kelly]

So, the likelihood of 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges being manufactured, in large quantities by the WCC for the US Defense Dept. during WWII, to arm our new found friends in the Italian Co-Belligerent Army is far greater than the same cartridges being manufactured in 1954 for some bizarre scheme cooked up by the CIA to aid some anti-Communist faction in the Third World. There are several letters from the Olin Corp. supporting the manufacture of 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges prior to 1944.

Now, before anyone gets excited and tells me I'm full of baloney, think about this. None of the cartridges in Lot 6000, 6001, 6002 and 6003 had anything stamped on their bases except "WCC" and "6.5mm". As there is no proof any of the pre-1940 lots of ammunition ever made it into the hands of the Italians, and next to nothing is known about the clandestine order for the USMC in 1954, who can say when the cartridges sold by WCC in 1954 were manufactured? And, who can say they were in their original boxes and nor re-packaged for the USMC?

Whatever army ended up with the WCC 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges, I'm sure they were thrilled to death when it was discovered the cartridges came without a clip and the Carcanos were reduced to being single shot rifles.

Well, if you check the previous thread that I brought back to life on the subject of Oswald's Ammo, it is posted that the 6.5 bullets did come in boxes of 18 and 20 - some of them in three clips of six bullets, and the MC said to have been discovered on the Sixth Floor did have a clip and one live unspent bullet.

And what about the shell with the bent lip? And why did Fritz keep that one back when he sent the other two to DC with the FBI? And is it true that the one with the bent lip did not have the indications that it was ejected from the rifle?

What does FBI fire expert Frazier have to say about that bullet, the one with the bent lip?

And I think the FBI report on the manufacture's sale of the bullet batch to the USMC in the fifties is significant, as it sets down three spots on the map we know these bullets were physically at - the manufacturer - the USMC - and the Sixth Floor Sniper's Nest.

As Bill Turner once said, "When it comes to political murders and assassinations it's not who pulled the trigger who counts, it's who bought the bullets."

Who bought the bullets?

[Robert Prudhomme]

So, the likelihood of 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges being manufactured, in large quantities by the WCC for the US Defense Dept. during WWII, to arm our new found friends in the Italian Co-Belligerent Army is far greater than the same cartridges being manufactured in 1954 for some bizarre scheme cooked up by the CIA to aid some anti-Communist faction in the Third World. There are several letters from the Olin Corp. supporting the manufacture of 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges prior to 1944.

Now, before anyone gets excited and tells me I'm full of baloney, think about this. None of the cartridges in Lot 6000, 6001, 6002 and 6003 had anything stamped on their bases except "WCC" and "6.5mm". As there is no proof any of the pre-1940 lots of ammunition ever made it into the hands of the Italians, and next to nothing is known about the clandestine order for the USMC in 1954, who can say when the cartridges sold by WCC in 1954 were manufactured? And, who can say they were in their original boxes and nor re-packaged for the USMC?

Whatever army ended up with the WCC 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges, I'm sure they were thrilled to death when it was discovered the cartridges came without a clip and the Carcanos were reduced to being single shot rifles.

Well, if you check the previous thread that I brought back to life on the subject of Oswald's Ammo, it is posted that the 6.5 bullets did come in boxes of 18 and 20 - some of them in three clips of six bullets, and the MC said to have been discovered on the Sixth Floor did have a clip and one live unspent bullet.

And what about the shell with the bent lip? And why did Fritz keep that one back when he sent the other two to DC with the FBI? And is it true that the one with the bent lip did not have the indications that it was ejected from the rifle?

What does FBI fire expert Frazier have to say about that bullet, the one with the bent lip?

And I think the FBI report on the manufacture's sale of the bullet batch to the USMC in the fifties is significant, as it sets down three spots on the map we know these bullets were physically at - the manufacturer - the USMC - and the Sixth Floor Sniper's Nest.

As Bill Turner once said, "When it comes to political murders and assassinations it's not who pulled the trigger who counts, it's who bought the bullets."

Who bought the bullets?

The only 6.5x52mm Carcano bullets that came in boxes of eighteen were the standard Italian military issue made by SMI (Societa Metallurgica Italiana). In each box, there were three clips, each holding six cartridges. The clip was a one time use and dropped out of the rifle as the last cartridge was chambered. Oddly, the clip in the Carcano in the SN did not fall out of the rifle when the assassin chambered the last cartridge.

Only the WCC 6.5 Carcano cartridges were loaded twenty to a box, and no clip came with these cartridges.

The "explanation" for the cartridge with the dent in the neck is that the assassin did not pull the bolt of the rifle back far enough when attempting to eject the spent round before chambering another round. Instead of the spent shell clearing the breech and being ejected, it stayed in the bullet extractor while the assassin was closing the bolt, thinking he was loading a live round. It then somehow "caught" on a protruding lip in the chamber and dented the cartridge.

I have been shooting bolt action rifles of all calibres, both military and sporting rifles, since I was a child, and I have never had an empty cartridge dented in this fashion. Nor have I ever heard of anyone else denting a cartridge in this fashion.

Try to picture how difficult it would be for this to occur. While not impossible, it requires the shooter to pull the bolt back a mere fraction of the normal distance required to eject a shell and load another one, before trying to close the bolt and catching the lip of the empty cartridge on the inside of the chamber. (with a live cartridge, the rounded or pointed nose allows the cartridge to go past this protrusion) If the assassin had any extra adrenalin at all flowing through his system, he would have, if anything, pulled harder on the bolt than he normally would have, instead of the very small pull required here.

It would be very possible to dent an empty cartridge if you tried to chamber an empty cartridge.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

So, the likelihood of 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges being manufactured, in large quantities by the WCC for the US Defense Dept. during WWII, to arm our new found friends in the Italian Co-Belligerent Army is far greater than the same cartridges being manufactured in 1954 for some bizarre scheme cooked up by the CIA to aid some anti-Communist faction in the Third World. There are several letters from the Olin Corp. supporting the manufacture of 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges prior to 1944.

Now, before anyone gets excited and tells me I'm full of baloney, think about this. None of the cartridges in Lot 6000, 6001, 6002 and 6003 had anything stamped on their bases except "WCC" and "6.5mm". As there is no proof any of the pre-1940 lots of ammunition ever made it into the hands of the Italians, and next to nothing is known about the clandestine order for the USMC in 1954, who can say when the cartridges sold by WCC in 1954 were manufactured? And, who can say they were in their original boxes and nor re-packaged for the USMC?

Whatever army ended up with the WCC 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges, I'm sure they were thrilled to death when it was discovered the cartridges came without a clip and the Carcanos were reduced to being single shot rifles.

Well, if you check the previous thread that I brought back to life on the subject of Oswald's Ammo, it is posted that the 6.5 bullets did come in boxes of 18 and 20 - some of them in three clips of six bullets, and the MC said to have been discovered on the Sixth Floor did have a clip and one live unspent bullet.

And what about the shell with the bent lip? And why did Fritz keep that one back when he sent the other two to DC with the FBI? And is it true that the one with the bent lip did not have the indications that it was ejected from the rifle?

What does FBI fire expert Frazier have to say about that bullet, the one with the bent lip?

And I think the FBI report on the manufacture's sale of the bullet batch to the USMC in the fifties is significant, as it sets down three spots on the map we know these bullets were physically at - the manufacturer - the USMC - and the Sixth Floor Sniper's Nest.

As Bill Turner once said, "When it comes to political murders and assassinations it's not who pulled the trigger who counts, it's who bought the bullets."

Who bought the bullets?

The only 6.5x52mm Carcano bullets that came in boxes of eighteen were the standard Italian military issue made by SMI (Societa Metallurgica Italiana). In each box, there were three clips, each holding six cartridges. The clip was a one time use and dropped out of the rifle as the last cartridge was chambered. Oddly, the clip in the Carcano in the SN did not fall out of the rifle when the assassin chambered the last cartridge.

Only the WCC 6.5 Carcano cartridges were loaded twenty to a box, and no clip came with these cartridges.

The "explanation" for the cartridge with the dent in the neck is that the assassin did not pull the bolt of the rifle back far enough when attempting to eject the spent round before chambering another round. Instead of the spent shell clearing the breech and being ejected, it stayed in the bullet extractor while the assassin was closing the bolt, thinking he was loading a live round. It then somehow "caught" on a protruding lip in the chamber and dented the cartridge.

I have been shooting bolt action rifles of all calibres, both military and sporting rifles, since I was a child, and I have never had an empty cartridge dented in this fashion. Nor have I ever heard of anyone else denting a cartridge in this fashion.

Try to picture how difficult it would be for this to occur. While not impossible, it requires the shooter to pull the bolt back a mere fraction of the normal distance required to eject a shell and load another one, before trying to close the bolt and catching the lip of the empty cartridge on the inside of the chamber. (with a live cartridge, the rounded or pointed nose allows the cartridge to go past this protrusion) If the assassin had any extra adrenalin at all flowing through his system, he would have, if anything, pulled harder on the bolt than he normally would have, instead of the very small pull required here.

It would be very possible to dent an empty cartridge if you tried to chamber an empty cartridge.

Well, that sure killed that thread.

[William Kelly]

What does Tink Thompson say about the dented lip on the shell?

[Robin Unger]

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Photos_-_NARA_Evidence_-_Cartridges

Edited October 3, 2013 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

What does Tink Thompson say about the dented lip on the shell?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=14177

[Robert Prudhomme]

Quote from Tom Purvis:

"To a relatively high degree of probability, the "dent" as well as the additional scrape marks along the cartridge case which are claimed to have been created by the "follower", are in fact the result of a Short Stroke.

In a Short Stroke, the bolt is not brought back sufficiently for the ejector release to activate, and the empty casing is not ejectecd, and thus when one goes forward with the bolt, they are in fact driving the empty casing forward towards the chamber again.

However, the bullet nose of the next round in the magazine housing has risen, and thus the empty casing is actually driven forward over the casing rim of the next live round below it which has risen at a slight angle. This action can force the empty casing to incur additional scrape marks from the casing rim below it.

This action causes the empty casing to literally "scrape" over the casing of the live round below it, giving it scrape marks somewhat similar to that created by the follower, and when the forward nose of the casing comes to the beginning of the chamber area, it encounters the bullet nose of the live round below it.

Which, in virtually every single instance, will dent the lip of the empty casing, provided that the bolt is actually operated with a rapid as well as sufficient force.

Which, by the way, may have some bearing on exactly why there was some 5.6 to 5.9 seconds delay between the first shot and the second shot.

Had the FBI/aka Robert Frazier given evidence of a "Short Stroke" in the shooting sequence, then most likely there is absolutely no "shooter" who would have considered that three shots were made within the WC's fairy tale less than 6-second shooting scenario.

Hope that helps some.

Tom"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nice try, but, utter nonsense as usual, Tom.

As the bolt is drawn back, holding the rim of the spent shell in the bullet extractor, the face of the bolt is actually riding on the next live cartridge in the magazine below. The face of the bolt is much greater in diameter than the rim of the spent cartridge. The bolt keeps the next live cartridge in place in the magazine and does not allow it to rise up UNTIL the bolt is fully retracted. The spent cartridge will be ejected well before the bolt is fully retracted.

To say that the spent cartridge can come in contact with the next live cartridge in the magazine shows either lack of knowledge of bolt action rifles OR a deliberate intent to mislead.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Quote from Tom Purvis:

"To a relatively high degree of probability, the "dent" as well as the additional scrape marks along the cartridge case which are claimed to have been created by the "follower", are in fact the result of a Short Stroke.

In a Short Stroke, the bolt is not brought back sufficiently for the ejector release to activate, and the empty casing is not ejectecd, and thus when one goes forward with the bolt, they are in fact driving the empty casing forward towards the chamber again.

However, the bullet nose of the next round in the magazine housing has risen, and thus the empty casing is actually driven forward over the casing rim of the next live round below it which has risen at a slight angle. This action can force the empty casing to incur additional scrape marks from the casing rim below it.

This action causes the empty casing to literally "scrape" over the casing of the live round below it, giving it scrape marks somewhat similar to that created by the follower, and when the forward nose of the casing comes to the beginning of the chamber area, it encounters the bullet nose of the live round below it.

Which, in virtually every single instance, will dent the lip of the empty casing, provided that the bolt is actually operated with a rapid as well as sufficient force.

Which, by the way, may have some bearing on exactly why there was some 5.6 to 5.9 seconds delay between the first shot and the second shot.

Had the FBI/aka Robert Frazier given evidence of a "Short Stroke" in the shooting sequence, then most likely there is absolutely no "shooter" who would have considered that three shots were made within the WC's fairy tale less than 6-second shooting scenario.

Hope that helps some.

Tom"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nice try, but, utter nonsense as usual, Tom.

As the bolt is drawn back, holding the rim of the spent shell in the bullet extractor, the face of the bolt is actually riding on the next live cartridge in the magazine below. The face of the bolt is much greater in diameter than the rim of the spent cartridge. The bolt keeps the next live cartridge in place in the magazine and does not allow it to rise up UNTIL the bolt is fully retracted. The spent cartridge will be ejected well before the bolt is fully retracted.

To say that the spent cartridge can come in contact with the next live cartridge in the magazine shows either lack of knowledge of bolt action rifles OR a deliberate intent to mislead.

Or, on the other hand, it may serve to demonstrate that I am in possession of multiple Carcano rifles (and ammunition), and just may have actually researched the subject matter.

Tom

P.S. It is personally quite irrelevant to me as to whether yourself and others accept, believe, and/or understand the mechanics of the bolt-action operation of the Carcano.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Whatever, it just did not happen.