Danny Arce testimony

[James Richards]

Thanks, Bill. Good work.

Yes, Greg, I think your point is highly significant.

To anyone's knowledge, has Arce or Williams ever been tracked down by researchers?

James

[Greg Parker]

Thanks, Bill. Good work.

Yes, Greg, I think your point is highly significant.

To anyone's knowledge, has Arce or Williams ever been tracked down by researchers?

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not that I'm aware of... wich probably isn't saying a lot.

Antti may be able to help. Antti?

The both starting working at the warehouse in September. Both were sent to lay floor at the Elm St building. Both taken in for statements together.

According to Williams' testimony, the only reason for the floor laying was to keep them employed during a slow period. Usual policy (according to the testimony of Givens) was to lay workers off during the slow periods and rehire them as needed. This sudden change in policy seems to have created an artificial short-term vacancy. Enter Oswald.

[Larry Hancock]

For the real deal on the TSBD building and various activities there I'd refer

you all to various research articles by William Weston. He has done more

work on it than anyone else - actually the repair project was not at all make

work but it was driven by the fact that the TSBD had only moved into the'building

within the last year or so and it had been a grocery warehouse before that with

much of the upper flooring badly damaged and not in condidition to bear the

weight of large amounts of heavy book cartons.

What is perhaps more interesting though is why the TSBD had grown it's

inventory so dramatically in a short span of time and why there were so

many books in the building in November - usually a light inventory time

as the school year shipments should have been virtually over, it was a

pretty seasonal business.

.... Larry

[Greg Parker]

For the real deal on the TSBD building and various activities there I'd refer

you all to various research articles by William Weston.  He has done more

work on it than anyone else - actually the repair project was not at all make

work but it was driven by the fact that the TSBD had only moved into the'building

within the last year or so and it had been a grocery warehouse before that with

much of the upper flooring badly damaged and not in condidition to bear the

weight of large amounts of heavy book cartons. 

What is perhaps more interesting though is why the TSBD had grown it's

inventory so dramatically in a short span of time and why there were so

many books in the building in November - usually a light inventory time

as the school year shipments should have been virtually over,  it was a

pretty seasonal business.

....  Larry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Larry, I'll look around for WW's articles. The claim sounds like the unsourced claim made on McAdams' website that oil left by the previous occupant was damaging the cartons. Weak flooring, or oil damage to cartons - either way - hard to imagine why they'd leave it over a year or more to do something about it.

It always seemed like one of the many, many questions that should have been asked by the WC, but wasn't.

Here is what Williams said. I can't see why he'd lie about it, so even if it wasn't true, it apppears that is at least what he himself was told.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I worked there until business began to get slow. I think that was--it was before November. I think it was some time during October. I am not sure.

Mr. BALL. And what did they put you to work at at that time?

Mr. WILLIAMS. They called me up to help lay a floor on the fifth floor, they wanted more boards over it. As I say, business was slow, and they were trying to keep us on without laying us off at the time. So I was using the saw, helping cut wood and lay wood.

Mr. BALL. You were laying a wood floor over the old floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. yes, sir.

[Larry Hancock]

Hi Greg, yes I'm aware that Williams said that - he may have been

told that by supervisor or just heard it as talk at work. I think it was

Williams who normally worked at the other TSBD building over NW of the

Plaza and who was moved over to the Elm street building work on the

floors - so it would make sense as he might indeed have been out of work

otherwise. One of the confusing remarks has been something to the effect

that an outside crew had been brought in to work on the flooring - apparently

what that really meant was that some people who were working on it that

were either new hires or from the other building.

The floor project wasn't the only work under way, they had worked on

the elevators previously and were working on the back stairs as well in

November as I recall. They had just finished the fifth floor work and

were in the first phase of reworking the sixth on November 22, moving

boxes to clear space to work.

-- Larry

[Antti Hynonen]

Greg Parker Posted Yesterday, 01:23 PM

  QUOTE(James Richards @ Oct 31 2004, 04:17 AM)

Thanks, Bill. Good work.

Yes, Greg, I think your point is highly significant.

To anyone's knowledge, has Arce or Williams ever been tracked down by researchers?

James

Not that I'm aware of... wich probably isn't saying a lot.

Antti may be able to help. Antti?

The both starting working at the warehouse in September. Both were sent to lay floor at the Elm St building. Both taken in for statements together.

According to Williams' testimony, the only reason for the floor laying was to keep them employed during a slow period. Usual policy (according to the testimony of Givens) was to lay workers off during the slow periods and rehire them as needed. This sudden change in policy seems to have created an artificial short-term vacancy. Enter Oswald.

No, Sorry. Don't know of anything with regard to investigating Williams or Arce. Now, who was it that appeared in The Men who killed Kennedy? I recall one of the TSBD fellows was on that show. Somehow I recall it as having been Junior Jarman. Or was it Williams?

One side note: Last I checked, Roy Sansom Truly is still alive, age 97, living in Texas.... no phone number listed under his name.

Apparently I have entered some false data in a previous posting of mine. (See the above quote).

According to the Intelius search program, data last verified July 1st 1993, Roy Sansom Truly would still be alive in Texas today at age 97. However, Gary Mack corrected me by telling me that Truly had expired in 1985.

At any rate it would have been interesting to ask him a few questions about the TSBD, and it's employees in 1963.

Edited November 1, 2004 by Antti Hynonen

[Antti Hynonen]

A few interesting observations of Daniel Arce's WC testimony:

1) In the beginning they don't ask his age, which they did ask in many cases. At the time 11/22/63 he was 18 (according to his affidavit). Joe Ball doesn't go into his background very much.

Today he would be 59 or 60.

2) In the end they don't ask him if there was anything else worth mentioning that he thought he ought to mention.

3) In his affidavit he doesn't mention where the shots came from. In the WC questioning he explains he thought they came from the west by the rail road tracks.

4) Quote from WC questioning:

----------

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. ARCE. Well, I quit school and found a job and worked.

Mr. BALL. Where did you find a job?

Mr. ARCE.. The first job, well, you don't want---

Mr. BALL. No; Just in general.

Mr. ARCE. Oh, I worked as a cook, short order cook and busboy, and just odd jobs at this Rubenstein place on Hall Rubenstein and Sons. I haven't had too many jobs.

Mr. BALL. What is Rubenstein and Son, a restaurant? Mr. ARCE. No; kind of an oyster place; they pack them and send them out, I guess.

---------

Question: Does the name of this business have any relation to one Jacob Rubenstein, or family?

Edited November 1, 2004 by Antti Hynonen

[Greg Parker]

Hi Greg,  yes I'm aware that Williams said that - he may have been

told that by supervisor or just heard it as talk at work.  I think it was

Williams who normally worked at the other TSBD building over NW of the

Plaza and who was moved over to the Elm street building work on the

floors - so it would make sense as he might indeed have been out of work

otherwise.  One of the confusing remarks has been something to the effect

that an outside crew had been brought in to work on the flooring - apparently

what that really meant was that some people who were working on it that

were either new hires or from the other building.

The floor project wasn't the only work under way,  they had worked on

the elevators previously and were working on the back stairs as well in

November as I recall.  They had just finished the fifth floor work and

were in the first phase of reworking the sixth on November 22, moving

boxes to clear space to work.

-- Larry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Larry, both Williams and Arce came over for the floor laying from the other warehouse. They had both started work for the company in September.

Here is what Givens said:

Mr. BELIN. Was there any period of time that you haven't worked there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What happened then?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I Just, you know, sometimes I had some days to layoff during

the slack season, like it is now, and when it' is rush season he calls you

back.

Mr. BELIN. So it was just a question of being laid off during the slack

season?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

So under normal circumstances, Williams and Arce would have been laid off. Instead, they were given work which, if what you say (or Mr Organ with his oil on the floor explanation) is correct, should have been carried out as a matter of urgency at they time they moved in.

The floor laying commenced in Oct, just prior to Oswald commencing. The motorcade was "go" as of Oct 4th when the trip got extended from one to two days. There was never any doubt where the luncheon would be held from that time (and thus, the route the motorcade would take). The Dallas city elders always got their way - and that was always their choice of venue.

Timing is everything.

The other work you mention, I believe was carried out much earlier - though I'm relying on memory here - so I'll be prepared to wipe the egg off after I get a chance to check it.

[Steve Thomas]

Antti,

Mr. ARCE. Oh, I worked as a cook, short order cook and busboy, and just odd jobs at this Rubenstein place on Hall Rubenstein and Sons.

Question: Does the name of this business have any relation to one Jacob Rubenstein, or family?

I looked into this a little bit myself once. I posed the same question you did on another forum.

I had someone write me back and say, " One of my good friends in Dallas checked her 1963 phone directory and found the following:

Rubenstien Foods Inc.

Main office: 1111 Hall, pho # TA6-6261

Pecan Plant Superintendent, 1200 Stiles, pho # TA3-8510

So far, I have not found any connection to the Rubenstein family we are all familiar with.

Steve Thomas

[Thomas Graves]

Antti,

Mr. ARCE. Oh, I worked as a cook, short order cook and busboy, and just odd jobs at this Rubenstein place on Hall Rubenstein and Sons.

Question: Does the name of this business have any relation to one Jacob Rubenstein, or family?

I looked into this a little bit myself once. I posed the same question you did on another forum.

I had someone write me back and say, " One of my good friends in Dallas checked her 1963 phone directory and found the following:

Rubenstien Foods Inc.

Main office: 1111 Hall, pho # TA6-6261

Pecan Plant Superintendent, 1200 Stiles, pho # TA3-8510

So far, I have not found any connection to the Rubenstein family we are all familiar with.

Steve Thomas

This 2013 obituary from The Dallas Morning News mentions Rubenstein Foods:

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/dallasmorningnews/obituary.aspx?pid=162792613

Stanley Rubenstein's father, Sidney, owned Rubenstein and Son Produce Company, Inc in the early 1950's when it was sued by a Chicago company, Emulsol, for selling some bad eggs to it. It was also later involved in some legal action brought by the state of Texas.

http://www.leagle.com/decision/1954885272SW2d613_1764

Darn it, Danny Arce didn't work for Jack Ruby or any of his siblings -- It's just another coincidence!

--Tommy

Edited October 19, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Greg Wagner]

On 10/31/2004 at 12:17 AM, James Richards said:

Thanks, Bill. Good work.

Yes, Greg, I think your point is highly significant.

To anyone's knowledge, has Arce or Williams ever been tracked down by researchers?

James

Danny Garcia Arce began working for the TSBD "about September 6, 1963." Bonnie Ray Williams began working there on September 8, 1963. Interesting.

Has anyone been able to find out how long Garcia worked there AFTER the assassination?

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

Here is a Mary Moorman photograph straight from NBC.  She tried to sell her photo, but no buyers.  In the pergola you can see a man in the breezeway behind Abraham Zapruder.  Mr. Zapruder in his first TV interview thought that he was in the direct line of fire. In the nix film, you see two shots from that area. There you have it, Arce was saying the truth.

Here is the transcript of Mr. Zapruder's first interview:

https://www.jfk.org/the-collections/abraham-zapruder-film/zapruder-interview-transcript/

Here is Mr. Zapruder's testimony - 

Mr. LIEBELER - Yes.
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes--after the shots--yes, some of them were motorcycle cops--I guess they left their motorcycles running and they were running right behind me, of course, in the line of the shooting. I guess they thought it came from right behind me.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any impression as to the direction from which these shots came?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - No, I also thought it came from back of me. Of course, you can't tell when something is in line it could come from anywhere, but being I was here and he was hit on this line and he was hit right in the head--I saw it right around here, so it looked like it came from here and it could come from there.
Mr. LIEBELER - All right, as you stood here on the abutment and looked down into Elm Street, you saw the President hit on the right side of the head and you thought perhaps the shots had come from behind you?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Well, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - From the direction behind you?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes, actually--I couldn't say what I thought at the moment, where they came from--after the impact of the tragedy was really what I saw and I started and I said--yelling, "They've killed him"--I assumed that they came from there, because as the police started running back of me, it looked like it came from the back of me.
Mr. LIEBELER - But you didn't form any opinion at that time as to what direction the shots did come from actually?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - No.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/zapruder.htm

Here is Bill and Gayle Newman TV interview minutes after the assassination:

 

Here is Bill and Gayle Newman TV interview years later:

Here is Mr. Bill Newman's testimony:

Q: How many shots did you hear?

A: I heard at least three. I often thought of four, but I can't clearly say there were four shots; I can clearly say there were three.

Q: Do you have any impression as to the direction from which the shots came?

A: Yes, sir. From the sound of the shots, the report of the rifle or whatever it was, it sounded like they were coming directly behind from where I was standing.

Q: Now would you push the microphone aside and step down to the aerial photograph and identify that general area, just the general area from which the sounds came.

A: In my opinion, the sounds of the shots sounded as if they had come from directly behind me (indicating). I was standing near this light standard here, and I thought the shots were coming from back here, and apparently everybody else did because they all ran in that direction.

http://www.jfk-online.com/wnewmanshaw.html

Here is the Nix Film - https://youtu.be/r1MsfIYd1iI

Look at the shelter around the 5-second mark. A shot is fired from the third window and there is another shot fired from the walkway behind Mr. Zapruder and Ms. Sitzman.

You can make the video show in slow motion, you will see it better.  Click the gear, then speed.  Select .25 as the speed.

It is hard for some of you to grasp, but there is film evidence, photographic evidence of shots fired from the pergola. Mr. Zapruder's interview and testimony and Bill and Gayle Newman's interview and testimony, both stating that the shots came from the pergola.  At least two shots came from the pergola where one gunman is seen in the Mary Moorman photo and in the Nix Film.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Keyvan Shahrdar

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

On 10/28/2004 at 7:22 PM, Shanet Clark said:

Sounds like he was on the grass behind the Umbrella man and "gator"

He also says he was across the street but that doesn't make any sense.

He heard three shots from the railroad tracks, which would have been to his right.

shanet

((OR HE WAS LYING....10/31/04))

There is a street between the TSBD and the grassy knoll.  It sounds that he was across the street, not exactly to the front of the building and west of it.  It makes perfect sense to me.

 

[John Butler]

John Butler   

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This was posted under Gifts from Uncle Malcom.  It made help with some understanding of Danny Arce.  This was left out of the post:

Was Danny Arce one of the assassins of President Kennedy? 

Danny Arce made the following statements to the authorities about the Kennedy Assassination in 1963 and 1964:

Dallas Police Department on 11-22-63

FBI Statement on 11-22-63 (handwritten)

FBI Statement on 11-22-63 (typed version of handwritten)

FBI Statement 12-19-63

FBI Statement 3-18-64

Warren Commission 4-7-64

Where was Danny located that day as the President passed by?  He first said in his Dallas Police Department on 11-22-63 that he was:

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Posted September 5

Thanks Bart,

The first issue is about Dealey Plaza photographers.  It doesn't really fit this thread so ignore that.  The second I just found more interesting because sometime back I had went through Danny Arce's testimony and noted there was an issue with his location.  On your website prayerman.com you locate Arce in front of the Dal-Tex in Altgens 6.  It appears to be Arce.  You know how people are on this forum.  They will say the image is to vague or some such.  But, I agree that it is Arce.

He appears to have something in his hand.  It appears to be a handheld radio.  If that is Danny Arce and that is a radio then he is one of the assassins of President Kennedy, a spotter or coordinator.

His location is so ambiguous in his testimony you can place him on all four corners of the Elm / Houston intersection. 

    

Back out a little and you have this:

That's is clearer.  He still appears to have a radio.

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John Butler   

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Posted September 6 (edited)

Danny Arce made the following statements to the authorities about the Kennedy Assassination in 1963 and 1964:

Dallas Police Department on 11-22-63

FBI Statement on 11-22-63 (handwritten)

FBI Statement on 11-22-63 (typed version of handwritten)

FBI Statement 12-19-63

FBI Statement 3-18-64

Warren Commission 4-7-64

If you look through these statements then Danny Arce's location becomes suspicious.  Eventually, he mentions he was on a grassy area in front of the TSBD.  There is no grassy area in front of the Dal-Tex.  This further adds to his ambiguous, suspicious location.  Here is where history.com places Arce's location with a white dot.  He should be visible in the Zapruder film and from the SW corner of Elm Street from such photographers as Betzner, Willis, and Croft.  But, he is not.

According to his testimony he could be there or across the street on South Elm.  Only problem with this there is no pictorial evidence for either location.  Bart Kamp has provided his location in front of the Dal-Tex as shown in Altgens 6.

How many radios can you hide under that raincoat?  Much less why is he wearing that when the temp was above 60 and the rain had stopped hours before.

It seems Danny Arce has been seen as a suspicious character before.  Check out Bill Shelley.  Does he look like he is in fear of his life?  Can you imagine the cop saying "Watch what you say, boy.  Accidents happen." 

Edited November 24, 2018 by John Butler

[Ray Mitcham]

That doesn't look like Danny Arce to me. His hair line is all wrong. Arce has a high forehead.

Edited November 26, 2018 by Ray Mitcham