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SBT "tumbling bullet" theory destroyed.


Blair Dobson
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The hole in the cuff is indicative of a bullet entering sideways. The corresponding wound in JBC's right forearm, at 2.5 cm. (1 inch) x .5 cm., can be caused by nothing other than a tumbling bullet, unless, of course, a grenade went off close to JBC.

The exit hole in the shirt is not a very clean hole, either, and could be from a tumbling bullet or broken bone matter exiting along with the bullet.

People like to discuss the penetrating capabilities of a FMJ 6.5 Carcano bullet without realizing the variabilities that must be considered when such a bullet contacts irregularly shaped bones at oblique angles.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme
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The hole in the cuff is indicative of a bullet entering sideways. The corresponding wound in JBC's right forearm, at 2.5 cm. (1 inch) x .5 cm., can be caused by nothing other than a tumbling bullet, unless, of course, a grenade went off close to JBC.

The exit hole in the shirt is not a very clean hole, either, and could be from a tumbling bullet or broken bone matter exiting along with the bullet.

People like to discuss the penetrating capabilities of a FMJ 6.5 Carcano bullet without realizing the variabilities that must be considered when such a bullet contacts irregularly shaped bones at oblique angles.

wow. so it came in straight, turned and tumbled, then straightened out, and then tumbled...straightened...

couldn't have been anything else...unless it was a grenade of course.

don't try an suggest that there could be more than one reason for things...

there is some real science for ya kids.

thats a lot of spin in a few millimeters. also you ignore the fact that the front and back holes of the jacket are clean and round. also, the arm of the jacket is round. this couldn't be indicative perhapd of how fabric tears, but only possible with a tumbling yet almost pristine bullet...or of course..a grenade.

ther weren't any grenades that day so..MAGIC TUMBLING BULLET!

everyone, pay close attention to baseless "empiracies" like this..."it could only be..because the alternative would be...grenade.."

this will help you in later life when you deny the holocaust, climate change and evolution...

see, this is a very magic bullet..

F for Fail.

please do over Robert and provide an alternative theory.

DIFFICULTY: no grenades.

Edited by Blair Dobson
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Mr. Dobson

I am not trying to account for the on again/off again tumbling characteristics of the bullet(s) that struck JBC; I am only offering conclusions based on medical evidence and the photographs you posted.

According to the medical evidence, and these photos, the bullet that struck JBC's forearm had to be travelling sideways in order to make a wound 2.5 cm. long. Coincidentally, the 6.5x54 Carcano slug also measures 2.5 cm. long. As bullets do not exit the barrel of a rifle in this fashion, we can only assume that something (tree branch?) caused this bullet to tumble before it reached his forearm.

Of course, this is not to say that Dr. Gregory did not falsify the medical evidence, and that the hole in the shirt cuff was not enlarged later but, the question is, why would someone do this?

Edited by Robert Prudhomme
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Mr. Dobson

I am not trying to account for the on again/off again tumbling characteristics of the bullet(s) that struck JBC; I am only offering conclusions based on medical evidence and the photographs you posted.

According to the medical evidence, and these photos, the bullet that struck JBC's forearm had to be travelling sideways in order to make a wound 2.5 cm. long. Coincidentally, the 6.5x54 Carcano slug also measures 2.5 cm. long. As bullets do not exit the barrel of a rifle in this fashion, we can only assume that something (tree branch?) caused this bullet to tumble before it reached his forearm.

Of course, this is not to say that Dr. Gregory did not falsify the medical evidence, and that the hole in the shirt cuff was not enlarged later but, the question is, why would someone do this?

which version of the medical evidence?

why would someone falsify evidence? please...I'm not saying Gregory did or didn't, but it is historical record that not only were people made to change their statements, some statements were altered..

if the bullet tumbled, how did it straighten itself out again? the holes in the jacket are straight (round) and the holes in the shirt are elongated.

(they also took fiber samples so there is that..)

when did it start tumbling and when did it finish? its a pretty short trip from shirtsleeve to coatsleeve and pretty amazing that it would "choose" that course.

It's also possible that the chest shot and the wrist shot are from different bullets and from different rifles...from different places.

explore that for a moment.

what i am trying to get at here is that the excuse for the SBT/MAGIC BULL**IT being in such pristine condition is that it was tumbling and as such was not deformed..this assertion is made a number of times by various people..

ok, so it tumbled...but it sure didn't do any tumbling into or out of the jacket according to these pictures...

so we are not talking about medical evidence here.

we are talking about the pictures.

"look at those round holes...wow..."

so, look at the pictures..not the medical evidence for a moment...

because the pictures tell a different story than the "tumbling" story...

simplified and medical evidence aside for now, tumbling bullets do not make clean, round entry and exit holes.

Edited by Blair Dobson
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which theory are we arguing here? SBT?

just curious.

there were no tree brances between JFK and JC...

and a sharp downward angle can account for an elongated wound as well.

UPDATE:

funny, it could only be one explanation...or a grenade of course...

the cloth shirt tears in a lengthwise fashion but the coat does not...perhaps its the way this particular shirt fabric reacts to being shot at...just throwing out a possible alternative...

Edited by Blair Dobson
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Ok.

I decided to do some detective work here.

Rather than blather on about the warren commision this, and the CT/LN angle here and there, I am going to buy some suits and shirts at the goodwill tomorrow.
I will take those and my camera to the shooting range and actually test my theory..

my friend here works at a gun store so no it wont be Oswalds rifle, no it won't be Dealy Plaza and an exact barometric reading...
But in tearing at an old shirt today with a knitting needle, I noticed that the cloth ripped and tore lengthwise.

Sadly, I won't have an american politician or ballistic gel in between, but just for giggles I'll test it out.

I'll post back here with the results...

I can tell you right now what the critique will be:

"It wasn't the right thread count so the SBT stands..."
"Everyone knows GJC wore Brooks Brothers of Dallas and..."
"how can you be serious...it was a 303 shell and it diodn't land in a leg...SBT stands..."

"according to my laser pointer and sextant...."

( this is why I haven't posted the 3D results of the backyard photos I spent almost a year working on... I will say, those photos are as fake Joan rivers face...)

but shooting guns? wrecking a few crappy suits?

Sounds like fun...

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Something to think about, just as a point of interest. I have spent some time handloading rifle cartridges for hunting and have experimented with varying bullet weights and gunpowder charges. It does not take much variation in the gunpowder charge to throw things off and, when shooting at a paper target at 100 yards, the results are quite obvious. We call it "keyholing" and, when viewed on a paper target, you can actually see how the bullet went through the target sideways (or any other way besides straight on, which makes a neat little round hole). I have a few theories as to how the WCC 6.5 Carcano ammunition might have done this.

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Something to think about, just as a point of interest. I have spent some time handloading rifle cartridges for hunting and have experimented with varying bullet weights and gunpowder charges. It does not take much variation in the gunpowder charge to throw things off and, when shooting at a paper target at 100 yards, the results are quite obvious. We call it "keyholing" and, when viewed on a paper target, you can actually see how the bullet went through the target sideways (or any other way besides straight on, which makes a neat little round hole). I have a few theories as to how the WCC 6.5 Carcano ammunition might have done this.

i had given thought to regular and "hot loads" . good thinking.. changing the grain...

I have a fair bit of experience with firearms...and you are entirely correct here..

not trying to be a dick...

keep in mind, I have one part of my brain that says " what if " in regards to a shooter from that location , with that rifle as well.

but I do not for one second, nor will I ever buy the SBT.

i will entertain any well thought out idea as a possibilty...but my intellectual charity stops at bullets doing flying walenda moves, causing multiple wounds and then showing up essentially unscathed when the sole purpose of that is to meet the Katzenbacher Criteria"..

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Something to think about, just as a point of interest. I have spent some time handloading rifle cartridges for hunting and have experimented with varying bullet weights and gunpowder charges. It does not take much variation in the gunpowder charge to throw things off and, when shooting at a paper target at 100 yards, the results are quite obvious. We call it "keyholing" and, when viewed on a paper target, you can actually see how the bullet went through the target sideways (or any other way besides straight on, which makes a neat little round hole). I have a few theories as to how the WCC 6.5 Carcano ammunition might have done this.

i had given thought to regular and "hot loads" . good thinking.. changing the grain...

I have a fair bit of experience with firearms...and you are entirely correct here..

not trying to be a dick...

keep in mind, I have one part of my brain that says " what if " in regards to a shooter from that location , with that rifle as well.

but I do not for one second, nor will I ever buy the SBT.

i will entertain any well thought out idea as a possibilty...but my intellectual charity stops at bullets doing flying walenda moves, causing multiple wounds and then showing up essentially unscathed when the sole purpose of that is to meet the Katzenbacher Criteria"..

I wasn't thinking so much about "hot" loads as I was about deteriorated primers and gunpowder.

And trust me when I say I have never been able to swallow the SBT fairy tale, either. It is an insult to the intelligence of anyone with more than six functioning brain cells.

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