Heavy Set, Middle-Aged Man Put in Police Car …

[Clive Largey]

Thomas unless I'm mistaken. I think Martin was referring to this post of Linda's and James,

I have always wondered what is going on in the top left of this frame. It seems to have to attention of several of the other people standing around.

I've never seen that photo before either! Great find! It does grab my attention too. Do you know who it's by? It appears to be a still/screen capture from a film. Do you know who took the photo - or who filmed it and/or which video it came from so i can (hopefully) see it in context with the rest of the film online to get an idea of when it was taken etc...Thanks, James!

I think that's been credited to Couch, filming as he left the scene of the biggest story of his life.

I saved this, no idea who from but could be Gerda and Co.

[Thomas Graves]

Thomas unless I'm mistaken. I think Martin was referring to this post of Linda's and James,

I have always wondered what is going on in the top left of this frame. It seems to have to attention of several of the other people standing around.

I've never seen that photo before either! Great find! It does grab my attention too. Do you know who it's by? It appears to be a still/screen capture from a film. Do you know who took the photo - or who filmed it and/or which video it came from so i can (hopefully) see it in context with the rest of the film online to get an idea of when it was taken etc...Thanks, James!

I think that's been credited to Couch, filming as he left the scene of the biggest story of his life.

I saved this, no idea who from but could be Gerda and Co.

Clive,

Is there a heavy-set guy being arrested / detained / questioned in this clip?

How does witness Robert Edwards factor into this?

Great clip, BTW. Maybe we can break it down and find Gloria Calvery, etc, in it.

Thanks,

--Tommy

Edited August 31, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Clive Largey]

Yeah MAL, hey Mal! You saw a shooter in that window remember? Where you going?

Does seem a little reluctant to leave perhaps but only films the knoll, anyway.

Screen grab not the best but in the footage it looks like the guy in the middle is being physically assisted down the embankment rather than taken away for questioning.

Partially blind or perhaps hit his head jumping over the fence?

One on the right resembles a lot attendant with that hat.

[Thomas Graves]

Yeah MAL, hey Mal! You saw a shooter in that window remember? Where you going?

Does seem a little reluctant to leave perhaps but only films the knoll, anyway.

Screen grab not the best but in the footage it looks like the guy in the middle is being physically assisted down the embankment rather than taken away for questioning.

Partially blind or perhaps hit his head jumping over the fence?

One on the right resembles a lot attendant with that hat.

The black guy wearing the beanie on the right can be seen at 0:58 in the Robert Hughes film,

running across Elm Street from the "infield grass" to the Grassy Knoll area. He was "captured" in several still photographs taken of the crowd on the Grassy Knoll after that, and even in the parking lot if I remember correctly. It wouldn't surprised me if the guy in the middle "being assisted down the slope" was his friend.

Edit: On second thought, I think you're right about the guy-on-the-right's looking like a "parking lot attendant." Different guy altogether from the guy wearing the beanie. My bad.

Or could he be TSBD "porter" Eddie Piper???

from the great ROKC website:

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t34-was-eddie-piper-on-the-6th-floor

--Tommy

Edited September 1, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Clive Largey]

Just noticed that Richard called it on Edwards on the previous page.

Also, man being escorted above could pass for a hobo with those pants.

Kicked off a train perhaps and still a bit "disorientated"?

Tommy, you gave me a good laugh but I read it again and now think you were actually being serious.

Gloria who?

Sorry quite late here now, ttfn/

[Thomas Graves]

Just noticed that Richard called it on Edwards on the previous page.

Also, man being escorted above could pass for a hobo with those pants.

Kicked off a train perhaps and still a bit "disorientated"?

Tommy, you gave me a good laugh but I read it again and now think you were actually being serious.

Gloria who?

Sorry quite late here now, ttfn/

Naw, I was just kidding. Get some rest.

By the way, the title of this thread is "Heavy Set, Middle-Aged Man Put In Police Car...".

Shouldn't we start a new thread called "Parking Lot Attendant's Friend Arrested On Grassy Knoll!" or "Finally Identified! -- Witness Robert Edwin Edwards!" ?

--Tommy

[Martin Blank]

Thomas unless I'm mistaken. I think Martin was referring to this post of Linda's and James,

I have always wondered what is going on in the top left of this frame. It seems to have to attention of several of the other people standing around.

I've never seen that photo before either! Great find! It does grab my attention too. Do you know who it's by? It appears to be a still/screen capture from a film. Do you know who took the photo - or who filmed it and/or which video it came from so i can (hopefully) see it in context with the rest of the film online to get an idea of when it was taken etc...Thanks, James!

I think that's been credited to Couch, filming as he left the scene of the biggest story of his life.

I saved this, no idea who from but could be Gerda and Co.

​Sorry to disappoint you Clive but i was only referring to the man in the hughes film as possibly being the gentleman that Bowers mentioned in his WC testimony. Really have no idea what you are referring to or what gave you the idea. Martin

[Greg Wagner]

Didn't Roger Craig later identify Edgar Eugene Bradley to Jim Garrison as the man who claimed to be a Secret Service agent

Hi James… see below.

From Roger Craig’s When They Kill A President:

PG. 1

At approximately 12:40 p.m., Deputy Craig was standing on the south side of Elm Street when he heard a shrill whistle coming from the north side of Elm and turned to see a man—wearing faded blue trousers and a long sleeved work shirt made of some type of grainy material—come running down the grassy knoll from the direction of the TSBD. He saw a light green Rambler station wagon coming slowly west on Elm Street, pull over to the north curb and pick up the man coming down the hill. By this time the traffic was too heavy for him to be able to reach them before the car drove away going west on Elm.

After witnessing the above scene, Deputy Craig ran to the command post at Elm and Houston to report the incident to the authorities. When he got there and asked who was involved in the investigation, a man turned to him and said “I‘m with the Secret Service.” Craig recounted what he had just seen. This “Secret Service” man showed little interest in Craig‘s description of the people leaving, but seemed extremely interested in the description of the Rambler to the degree [that] this was the only part of the recounting that he wrote down. (On 12/22/67, Roger Craig learned from Jim Garrison that this man‘s name was Edgar Eugene Bradley, a right wing preacher from North Hollywood, California and part-time assistant to Carl McIntire, the fundamentalist minister who had founded the American Counsel of Christian Churches. Then-governor Ronald Reagan refused to grant the extradition request from Garrison for the indictment of Bradley during the New Orleans probe.)

PG. 13

I learned nothing of this “Secret Service Agent‘s” identity until December 22, 1967 while we were living in New Orleans. The television was on as I came home from work one night and there on the screen was a picture of this man. I did not know what it was all about until my wife told me that Jim Garrison had charged him with being a part of the assassination plot. I called Jim Garrison then and told him that this was the man I had seen in Dallas on November 22, 1963. Jim then sent one of his investigators to see me with a better picture which I identified. I then learned that this man‘s name was Edgar Eugene Bradley. It was a relief to me to know his name for I had been bothered by the fact that I had failed to get his name when he had told me he was a Secret Service Agent and I had given him my information. On the night of the assassination when I had come home and discussed the day with my wife I had, of course, told her of this encounter and my failure to get his name.

[Clive Largey]

Thomas unless I'm mistaken. I think Martin was referring to this post of Linda's and James,

I have always wondered what is going on in the top left of this frame. It seems to have to attention of several of the other people standing around.

I've never seen that photo before either! Great find! It does grab my attention too. Do you know who it's by? It appears to be a still/screen capture from a film. Do you know who took the photo - or who filmed it and/or which video it came from so i can (hopefully) see it in context with the rest of the film online to get an idea of when it was taken etc...Thanks, James!

I think that's been credited to Couch, filming as he left the scene of the biggest story of his life.

I saved this, no idea who from but could be Gerda and Co.

​Sorry to disappoint you Clive but i was only referring to the man in the hughes film as possibly being the gentleman that Bowers mentioned in his WC testimony. Really have no idea what you are referring to or what gave you the idea. Martin

Hi Martin, no problem, since you didn't quote another post I assumed you were referring to the post above you is all, perhaps if I had read the entire thread...

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

Replying to 3 of you here to catch up! ....

Clive - thank you so much for posting that crystal clear Couch animated gif - you're rt. it looks like Gerda's handiwork! She does incredible work!

Tommy - I didn't realize James Richards hasn't been here in a long time. I hope he's ok!

Martin - Sorry this was confusing...I was going thru this thread back in August and came across James' post from 2013 about there possibly being a "citizen's arrest" on the knoll - someone had posted the still (or one similar to it) that Clive posted just above, with the African-American man helping another man down the hill. It was posited back then that this might have been a "citizens arrest". I had never seen that footage before, so I asked about it and that's how this got brought up. I'm really happy to have a clear copy (thanks to Clive posting, probably, Gerda's anim. gif.). I agree it's likely he's helping the guy down the hill rather than arresting him. With all those people watching, I think we would have heard something about it before now had it actually been an arrest.

And WOW!!!!!!!!!! I am so impressed with your find (or your friend's find) on that heavy-set older guy in the RR yard! I have NEVER noticed him before!!! That s an incredible find! I think you are onto something big! What I find curious about this guy is that he's off by himself - sort of "nonchalantly" strolling around. Not talking to anyone - trying to act a little TOO nonchalant, IMO, compared to everyone else. I think psychologically this is a give away! I've felt the same way about "tan jacket man" in the Hughes RR yard sequence. He is off by himself trying not to bump into anyone or talk to anyone - except he does make furtive eye contact with the "hatless cop" and the "trench coat man" whom he also gives a little nod to before wheeling around to leave. His behavior is very suspect. Another thing is, back in '63 there were very few fat young or middle-aged people (maybe some elderly) - today it's epidemic. So to find this "older" (ie middle-aged) obese man - such an oddity in 1963 - in the RR yard right where Bowers had said - well, when I saw him it gave me chills!

Now... I wonder what happened to his collaborator, "plaid jacket/shirt man"? I've long wondered about this guy in a bold plaid jacket, who appears to be coming from behind the TSBD. He always reminded me of a cleaned up Emilio Santana. He's seen for several stills in a row so keep clicking. I made a comparison once and was pretty convinced myself that it could be him shaved, with his hair trimmed short, and nicely and dressed up. I've seen no one in the RR yard in a plaid jacket - so my thought is he went behind the TSBD and rounded it - appearing there in Cook and headed south for a get away car. Like "tan jacket man" and "heavy set man" - his behavior is suspect, IMO, since he also avoids contact with people including eye contact. But he's definitely going somewhere.

Speaking of the Railyard...and where "plaid jacket man" could have gone... did anyone ever notice there's a truck camper parked out in the north end of the pkg lot? I just noticed it for the first time the other day (sorry if this is old news for people) - but as soon as I saw it I wondered if it could have been used as a hiding place.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Linda Giovanna Zambanini

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

Yeah MAL, hey Mal! You saw a shooter in that window remember? Where you going?

Does seem a little reluctant to leave perhaps but only films the knoll, anyway.

Screen grab not the best but in the footage it looks like the guy in the middle is being physically assisted down the embankment rather than taken away for questioning.

Partially blind or perhaps hit his head jumping over the fence?

One on the right resembles a lot attendant with that hat.

The black guy wearing the beanie on the right can be seen at 0:58 in the Robert Hughes film,

running across Elm Street from the "infield grass" to the Grassy Knoll area. He was "captured" in several still photographs taken of the crowd on the Grassy Knoll after that, and even in the parking lot if I remember correctly. It wouldn't surprised me if the guy in the middle "being assisted down the slope" was his friend.

Edit: On second thought, I think you're right about the guy-on-the-right's looking like a "parking lot attendant." Different guy altogether from the guy wearing the beanie. My bad.

Or could he be TSBD "porter" Eddie Piper???

from the great ROKC website:

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t34-was-eddie-piper-on-the-6th-floor

--Tommy :suny

There was a RR Yard Pkg Lot Attendent named Oscar McVey, who was on the sidewalk on the N. side of Elm down by the TU somewhere. I just reread his sole FBI statement hoping it would say what race he was...but it doesn't mention it. That being said - it seems this was a common job for black men back then. So maybe McVey is the black guy helping the chap down the GN? He was in the general area.

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

Just noticed that Richard called it on Edwards on the previous page.

Also, man being escorted above could pass for a hobo with those pants.

Kicked off a train perhaps and still a bit "disorientated"?

Tommy, you gave me a good laugh but I read it again and now think you were actually being serious.

Gloria who?

Sorry quite late here now, ttfn/

Naw, I was just kidding. Get some rest.

By the way, the title of this thread is "Heavy Set, Middle-Aged Man Put In Police Car...".

Shouldn't we start a new thread called "Parking Lot Attendant's Friend Arrested On Grassy Knoll!" or "Finally Identified! -- Witness Robert Edwin Edwards!" ?

--Tommy

Hi Tommy! As you've probably noticed i've been gone for a couple of weeks or so and have been busy ferretting out wabbits down those wabbit holes!!! I've been doing geneaological research and digging through HS and College yearbooks online etc...snipping photos and making collages/graphics like crazy.

I'm happy to say i've now ID'd several more witnesses, including one that was the most serindipitious discovery i've made in my entire life! (I won't post it here and get us off even more off track - she needs her own page - but I'll just say that I've identified the "Mystery Camerawoman" in the solid dress, who was seen taking photos around the TSBD!) As i said, that discovery was totally serindipitious as i was researching KRLD's Steve Pieringer & Joe Scott - specifically, college yearbook photos for Joe Scott - to add to his findagrave page i set up for him. Please read - i did a lot of work on it - and leave him some flowers. He died in 1965 at only 33!

One of people i ID'd was Bob Edwards (and Ronald Fischer, among others). In fact, that is why i got back on this thread tonight to triumphantly post my Edwards and Fischer collages! But, alas, I see someone already id'd him and beat me too it a few days after i was last on here! :'( However, I'm going to post what i have for Edwards anyway since there are some additional photos and information i've put together - I also ID'd them in Towner2 as well as Dorman (adjacent to the stoplight on the SW corner of Elm&Houston).

Some people I've ID'd: Lloyd Viles, Bonnie Richie (she's the "grey jumper girl" in the "Truly group" and in Cook-Cooper hanging out with Carolyn Arnold on the SE corner of the TSBD - and btw, in Skaggs 12 we can see it's actually a "green" jumper), Fisher & Edwards, Pieringer & Scott, and A.J. L'Hoste.

Speaking of the "Heavy Set, Middle-Aged Man Put In Police Car..."

I've also spotted Pieringer & Scott in Willis 10 - in very close proximity to the suspect being arrested - Pieringer is literally only inches away! (And, IMO, that photo may have been altered to cover up Scott filming the scene - there's a really weird - i don't even know how to describe it - "carrot-like" - object sticking up covering his head - and some weird "white-out" around it in his head area where the camera would normally be located. And in line with and above the point of this object - the decorative blocks on the TSBD are smeared - while the surrounding blocks are clear. You have to blow it up huge to see this. (It was probably altered in the pre-digital age, long before the culprits ever dreamed of the internet or personal computers or the public's ability to study such details!)

Prior to Willis 10, and after Scott returned to the studio, leaving Pieringer, Sanderson & Underwood at the Depository, it was Pieringer that was filming. But, in Willis 10 we can see he's not filming - even though there's a huge breaking news event in his arms reach! I wager, Scott was filming, but not only has their film vanished, so has proof that they were filming this crucial arrest scene. There's something very fishy about that photo.

I've also been going thru "The Lost JFK Tapes" today (got it on Netflix) and have found Steve Pieringer in numerous sequences! I'm very zeroed in on looking for his black hat and rotund figure, and i'm finding him everywhere in that film! Usually, very fleetingly, but he's there. There's obvious evidence that he was filming - a lot. Just as much as any of the other cameramen whose names roll off everyone's tongues. Why have Pieringer & Scott been so forgotten? Their film vanished and and their very existence for all intents and purposes vanished too. I find their "nonexistence" suspect. I have a queasy feeling about that, and believe it has to do with their being some of the earliest photographer's there - and in the very middle of the Willis10 arrest scene.

Scott took their footage back to KRLD to process & edit to get it on air - so he is rarely found in photos or film from there - and then only in the first 1/2 hr or so before he rushed back to the studio. But what haunts me now is knowing how young they both were when they died and then finding them in Willis 10 watching the arrest of the middle-aged, slightly husky suspect taken out of the TSBD. It makes me wonder - did they see too much?

**

I've also found some very intriguing information about "step-mates" Madie Reese & Ruth Dean, and Avery Davis & Judy McCully, that makes me wonder if they were part of a group on the steps who were strategically located there just in case Oswald did come out on the steps - so they could deny that he did. We know what Reese looks like, but i couldn't find photos of the others unfortunately.

Watching the Lost Tapes, I've also found 2 cameramen i've never seen before. One is wearing a cardigan and has bushy/curly hair, the other looks to have a big horseshoe mustache. They're both seen filming Florer opposite Pieringer who is behind Florer filming the scene.

**

Here are my Edwards & Fischer graphics. I noticed the fold of Edward's collar is a give away too:

.

(sorry some of the photos are blurry - I'm not a paying member of e-yearbooks. So that's where the blurry ones are from.)

BTW... Roland Fischer accompanied Bob Edwards to the Sheriff's office to to give their affidavits. I have a hunch he's probably sitting right there next to Bob Edwards talking to him! In fact, the disembodied hand and watch you see resting on that person's knee to the right of Bob is probably his. He had on a suit so It makes sense he might have on a long sleeved dress shirt. Unfortunately, I cropped that photo from somewhere long ago, and saved it. If anyone knows where I can find the film clip or photo it originally came from that would be GREAT! Then we could hopefully see if that's Roland Fischer sitting there.

Mr. Fischer....

Dorman...

Edited September 6, 2015 by Linda Giovanna Zambanini

[Thomas Graves]

Yeah MAL, hey Mal! You saw a shooter in that window remember? Where you going?

Does seem a little reluctant to leave perhaps but only films the knoll, anyway.

Screen grab not the best but in the footage it looks like the guy in the middle is being physically assisted down the embankment rather than taken away for questioning.

Partially blind or perhaps hit his head jumping over the fence?

One on the right resembles a lot attendant with that hat.

The black guy wearing the beanie on the right can be seen at 0:58 in the Robert Hughes film,

running across Elm Street from the "infield grass" to the Grassy Knoll area. He was "captured" in several still photographs taken of the crowd on the Grassy Knoll after that, and even in the parking lot if I remember correctly. It wouldn't surprised me if the guy in the middle "being assisted down the slope" was his friend.

Edit: On second thought, I think you're right about the guy-on-the-right's looking like a "parking lot attendant." Different guy altogether from the guy wearing the beanie. My bad.

Or could he be TSBD "porter" Eddie Piper???

from the great ROKC website:

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t34-was-eddie-piper-on-the-6th-floor

--Tommy :suny

There was a RR Yard Pkg Lot Attendent named Oscar McVey, who was on the sidewalk on the N. side of Elm down by the TU somewhere. I just reread his sole FBI statement hoping it would say what race he was...but it doesn't mention it. That being said - it seems this was a common job for black men back then. So maybe McVey is the black guy helping the chap down the GN? He was in the general area.

Thanks Linda!

The Oscar McVey you refer to was probably 73 year old Oscar S. McVey, or his 33 year old son, Oscar Kenneth McVey.

http://www.myheritage.com/names/oscar_mcvey

Keep up the good work!

But you might want to consider editing what you wrote about Gloria Calvery on FindaGrave. To keep Bobby Prudhomme happy.

--Tommy

Edited September 6, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Martin Blank]

Replying to 3 of you here to catch up! ....

Clive - thank you so much for posting that crystal clear Couch animated gif - you're rt. it looks like Gerda's handiwork! She does incredible work!

Tommy - I didn't realize James Richards hasn't been here in a long time. I hope he's ok!

Martin - Sorry this was confusing...I was going thru this thread back in August and came across James' post from 2013 about there possibly being a "citizen's arrest" on the knoll - someone had posted the still (or one similar to it) that Clive posted just above, with the African-American man helping another man down the hill. It was posited back then that this might have been a "citizens arrest". I had never seen that footage before, so I asked about it and that's how this got brought up. I'm really happy to have a clear copy (thanks to Clive posting, probably, Gerda's anim. gif.). I agree it's likely he's helping the guy down the hill rather than arresting him. With all those people watching, I think we would have heard something about it before now had it actually been an arrest.

And WOW!!!!!!!!!! I am so impressed with your find (or your friend's find) on that heavy-set older guy in the RR yard! I have NEVER noticed him before!!! That s an incredible find! I think you are onto something big! What I find curious about this guy is that he's off by himself - sort of "nonchalantly" strolling around. Not talking to anyone - trying to act a little TOO nonchalant, IMO, compared to everyone else. I think psychologically this is a give away! I've felt the same way about "tan jacket man" in the Hughes RR yard sequence. He is off by himself trying not to bump into anyone or talk to anyone - except he does make furtive eye contact with the "hatless cop" and the "trench coat man" whom he also gives a little nod to before wheeling around to leave. His behavior is very suspect. Another thing is, back in '63 there were very few fat young or middle-aged people (maybe some elderly) - today it's epidemic. So to find this "older" (ie middle-aged) obese man - such an oddity in 1963 - in the RR yard right where Bowers had said - well, when I saw him it gave me chills!

Now... I wonder what happened to his collaborator, "plaid jacket/shirt man"? I've long wondered about this guy in a bold plaid jacket, who appears to be coming from behind the TSBD. He always reminded me of a cleaned up Emilio Santana. He's seen for several stills in a row so keep clicking. I made a comparison once and was pretty convinced myself that it could be him shaved, with his hair trimmed short, and nicely and dressed up. I've seen no one in the RR yard in a plaid jacket - so my thought is he went behind the TSBD and rounded it - appearing there in Cook and headed south for a get away car. Like "tan jacket man" and "heavy set man" - his behavior is suspect, IMO, since he also avoids contact with people including eye contact. But he's definitely going somewhere.

Speaking of the Railyard...and where "plaid jacket man" could have gone... did anyone ever notice there's a truck camper parked out in the north end of the pkg lot? I just noticed it for the first time the other day (sorry if this is old news for people) - but as soon as I saw it I wondered if it could have been used as a hiding place.

i want to reiterate that none of the credit for the heavyset guy goes to me. my friend has his reasons and i respect his wish for anonymity

Edited September 6, 2015 by Martin Blank

[Chris Scally]

Linda:

Not wishing for a moment to "throw cold water" on your research, but I would draw your attention to the identification of the three men in the foreground of Towner 2, as described on the Sixth Floor Museum site: "In the foreground are WFAA radio employees Pierce Allman (left) and Terry Ford (right). Amateur photographer Hugh Betzner stands in front of them."

Chris