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David S. Lifton Address at Bismarck State College 11.7.13


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Vince,

I think I've asked this before, but was is your take on Kellerman?

David Lifton all but indictes him in the alteration of Kennedy's corpse. My take on David's timeline is that Kellerman must have helped move Kennedy's corpse from the casket immediately after it was taken into AF1 in the galley area, Jackie and JFK's entourage still being on the tarmac. His description of Kellerman's shirt covered in blood would fit if Kellerman lifted kennedy's shoulders while moving the body - I assume to the body bag that it was eventually removed from at Bethesda. Buckley, and possibly Johnson, helping at the legs - hence the need for Johnson to change his shirt. I wonder if Johnson's other shirt got hidden in the trash in the bathroom? I doubt Buckley had time to do the surgery (therefore he had relatively low amount of bloodstains) - and there is one report by a Bethesda Orderly that supports surrepticious surgery right before the "official" autopsy.

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I think it is very possible and plausible that Kellerman was involved. My top three suspects are Boring, Roberts, and Greer

It is my understanding that at Parkland Kellerman lifted Kennedy out of the limo by the feet, so at that time it is not likely that he got blood all over his shirt. That makes the scenario of Kellerman moving Kennedy's body out of the Dallas casket as soon as it is put aboard AF-1 a possible explanation for the blood on his shirt. I do wonder if there was a time on the flight to Andrew's if Kellerman was missing from the presidential party-- long enough to begin extracting bullets, etc. I know Horne thinks he widened the trach incision in transit and retrieved a bullet, but my memory is he is inferring such due to the blood on his shirt.

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Looking at a recent youtube clip of a walkthrough of AF1 there appears to be a exit door in the galley. I suppose a platform lift could be positioned there to offload the body (now bagged and resembling luggage), take it around to the forward luggage area and re-load it. If other luggage (LBJ's? from AF2 maybe?) was making the same trip it would not have drawn any notice.

If the forward luggage compartment is where anything was removed (i.e surgery and alteration), it would have had to have been done during the swearing-in and before takeoff. I'm pretty sure that luggage area is not where you want to be in-flight.

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I think it is very possible and plausible that Kellerman was involved. My top three suspects are Boring, Roberts, and Greer

It is my understanding that at Parkland Kellerman lifted Kennedy out of the limo by the feet, so at that time it is not likely that he got blood all over his shirt. That makes the scenario of Kellerman moving Kennedy's body out of the Dallas casket as soon as it is put aboard AF-1 a possible explanation for the blood on his shirt. I do wonder if there was a time on the flight to Andrew's if Kellerman was missing from the presidential party-- long enough to begin extracting bullets, etc. I know Horne thinks he widened the trach incision in transit and retrieved a bullet, but my memory is he is inferring such due to the blood on his shirt.

Wouldn't one want a doctor to be doing this? Lifton's presentation mentions Admiral Burkley with blood on his shirt cuff, allegedly gotten picking roses out of the hospital trash to present to Jackie.

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How much blood are we talking? JFK's body was cleaned and wrapped in a sheet by a nurse before leaving Parkland. Does a body with no heart pumping, that has been dead for at least an hour bleed very much?

Are there photos depicting the amounts of blood on these people's clothing?

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How much blood are we talking? JFK's body was cleaned and wrapped in a sheet by a nurse before leaving Parkland. Does a body with no heart pumping, that has been dead for at least an hour bleed very much?

Ken,

According to David's account there was blood all over the galley in AF1. Listen to the presentation (if you want jump to the part we are discussing 41:40),

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Thanks Chris. I always appreciate your well reasoned posts.

My questions relate to the ability of a corpse to exude large amounts of blood (i.e. is it feasible?)

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Ken,

I'm not a pathologist or a Doctor of any kind but I believe the blood will begin to coagulate about six hours after death (faster at higher temperatures) at which time it would tend to exude less reddish fluids. Note that other fluids could be bloodstained and blood tinted giving them the appearance of blood on clothing, etc. How much blood was left in the body when it was put in the casket? I have no idea, but I'd imagine the handling of the casket from Parkland to Love Field, and especially up the plane stairs, might agitate the corpse so I have no problem believing that the transfer would be a bloody mess.

I've seen a living person fill up a container about the size of a wastebasket full of blood and although the blood loss was major, they survived and were still conscious.

Sorry if that's unpleasant to describe.

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While thinking about Mr. Clifton's account and Kellerman's bloody shirt, there is one other time when he may have had the opportunity to get the front of his shirt bloodied. I haven't read or heard any accounts of how Kennedy was removed from the car at Parkland and who actually assisted in performing that duty. I know he was put on a stretcher but the question is by whom and how?

Maybe Vince, you could help out with that question or ask someone next time you do an interview?

I haven't seen any accounts of any Secret Service Agent "covered in blood" at Parkland. That sight would have drawn some notice and some comment from someone, witness or media. I looked carefully at the pictures of the SS handling the coffin and climbing the stairs to AF1. Unfortunately, we don't have a clear picture of the front either of of the lead two pall bearers.

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While thinking about Mr. Clifton's account and Kellerman's bloody shirt, there is one other time when he may have had the opportunity to get the front of his shirt bloodied. I haven't read or heard any accounts of how Kennedy was removed from the car at Parkland and who actually assisted in performing that duty. I know he was put on a stretcher but the question is by whom and how?

Maybe Vince, you could help out with that question or ask someone next time you do an interview?

I haven't seen any accounts of any Secret Service Agent "covered in blood" at Parkland. That sight would have drawn some notice and some comment from someone, witness or media. I looked carefully at the pictures of the SS handling the coffin and climbing the stairs to AF1. Unfortunately, we don't have a clear picture of the front either of of the lead two pall bearers.

I had posted elsewhere that I had read that Kellerman had Kennedy by the legs, not the torso, but darn if I can remember where I read it. Someone else has to chime in.

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