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Was Oswald To "Hit" Castro For CIA?


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From the Spartacus article on David Atlee Phillips:

"David Atlee Phillips died of cancer on 7th July, 1988. He left behind an unpublished manuscript. The novel is about a CIA officer who lived in Mexico City. In the novel the character states: 'I was one of those officers who handled Lee Harvey Oswald... We gave him the mission of killing Fidel Castro in Cuba... I don't know why he killed Kennedy. But I do know he used precisely the plan we had devised against Castro.'"

The former leader of Alpha 66, Antonio Veciana, has recently stated that the "Maurice Bishop" who was his controller for a couple of years, and with whom he once met in the presence of Oswald during the summer of 1963, was indeed CIA officer David Atlee Phillips.

Veciana has stated that he arrived for the meeting with "Bishop" about fifteen minutes early and that Oswald was already there, apparently finishing up his meeting with "Bishop."

Veciana has stated that the purpose for his meeting with "Bishop" in Dallas that late summer day was to further the goal of assassinating Fidel Castro, and that that was Oswald's reason for being there, too.

Question:

Was the CIA (or perhaps just Phillips and friends) really planning on having Oswald get to Cuba somehow and shoot Castro with a high powered rifle from a tall building, or did they just want Oswald to believe that?

Tommy :sun

PS How does one go about finding and reading an "unpublished manuscript"?

Edited by Thomas Graves
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There are Mirabiles in Niagara Falls, Ontario, Tommy. Are they related to those listed under your interests?

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There are Mirabiles in Niagara Falls, Ontario, Tommy. Are they related to those listed under your interests?

Probably, Ken.

BTW, do you think Oswald thought he was going to "hit" Castro for the CIA?

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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No, Tommy, I think that he was being manipulated, but I don't think that he thought that he was going to "hit" Castro.

There is a great deal of "intelligence" smoke and mirrors in this matter, and most of it was probably intended to cover the

actual roles and "perceived" roles of those involved.

Happy near year!

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From the Spartacus article on David Atlee Phillips:

"David Atlee Phillips died of cancer on 7th July, 1988. He left behind an unpublished manuscript. The novel is about a CIA officer who lived in Mexico City. In the novel the character states: 'I was one of those officers who handled Lee Harvey Oswald... We gave him the mission of killing Fidel Castro in Cuba... I don't know why he killed Kennedy. But I do know he used precisely the plan we had devised against Castro.'"

The former leader of Alpha 66, Antonio Veciana, has recently stated that the "Maurice Bishop" who was his controller for a couple of years, and with whom he once met in the presence of Oswald during the summer of 1963, was indeed CIA officer David Atlee Phillips.

Veciana has stated that he arrived for the meeting with "Bishop" about fifteen minutes early and that Oswald was already there, apparently finishing up his meeting with "Bishop."

Veciana has stated that the purpose for his meeting with "Bishop" in Dallas that late summer day was to further the goal of assassinating Fidel Castro, and that that was Oswald's reason for being there, too.

Question:

Was the CIA (or perhaps just Phillips and friends) really planning on having Oswald get to Cuba somehow and shoot Castro with a high powered rifle from a tall building, or did they just want Oswald to believe that?

Tommy :sun

PS How does one go about finding and reading an untitled "unpublished manuscript"? LOL

PPS A question for Larry Hancock. In SWHT, you state that Oswald was planning on leaving Dallas on 11/22/63, possibly just walking out the TSBD's back door at lunchtime and "disappearing." My question is: Where do you think Oswald thought he was going to be taken when he met his contact in the Texas Theatre? Thanks.

edited and bumped

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Sorry Tommy, missed your PPS at first read so I'll make a couple of observations.

First off, in regard to the Veciana remarks, if I recall correctly he primarily assumed Oswald was there to discuss what he was there for - which was ongoing assassination plans against Castro. That was an ongoing agenda between Veciana and Phillips not only in 1963 but for years afterwards up the similar plots in Latin America. Veciana only observed "Oswald" as he was leaving and my view would be that any meeting between Oswald and Phillips would have had more to do with spy games against the Cuban and Soviet embassies in Mexico City which Phillips was running, with propaganda against the FPCC which Phillips was taking over in his new assignment or just possible some tangential activities in the AM/SANTA project which involved seeding assets with FPCC credentials into Cuba via the Cuban embassy in Mexico City.

Second, a good deal of what Phillips did in later years was "situational" and in response to various Congressional investigations. His "unpublished" manuscript may well have been a signal to the Agency or to certain people at high levels in the agency not to hang him out to the HSCA - or that they better stonewall the HSCA. He played a key role in bolstering the legal defense for former intelligence personnel, which helped prevent any panic during the Congressional inquires but Phillips may also have felt it necessary to protect himself by essentially drawing a line in the sand for the Agency. It is also interesting that he appears to have directed at least one author towards David Morales - something that upset Morales a great deal. We have to respect Phillips capabilities in disinformation and in running multiple concurrent games.

Third, and in answer to your question, my speculation is that Oswald had continued to talk to the same individuals or persons representing them as connected to the individuals he had met in New Orleans - who claimed to be Cuban G2. Given that his experience in Mexico City had not turned out nearly as well as his propaganda efforts in New Orleans, he may have been interested in following up with them and very possibly was pitched with a plan to get him into Cuba - such a contact would have made him once again of great interest to Phillips and the Agency. I do think something was in play with him but I don't think he had any real clue about an actual attack on the President.

-- Larry

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It appears LHO worked more for PERMINDEX, and that is why the various Embasy visits returned fake photos.

PERMINDEX interests wanted Castro in power in Cuba.

LHO likely stopped the Cancer virus from getting to Cuba.

LHO was part FBI informer, Part Cia, and huge part PERMINDEX. imho

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Judyth Baker posted this on my Facebook page today and although it is not precisely on topic here, it is still relevant:
-------
What military information did Oswald have access to? According to Oswald's Marine crew commander at El Toro, Lt.. John Donovan:

"He had access to the location of all bases in the west coast areas, all radio frequencies for all squadrons, all tactical call signs, and the relative strength of all squadrons, number and type of aircraft in a squadron, who was the commanding officer, the authentication code of entering and exiting the ADIZ, which stand for Air Defense Identification Zone. He knew the range of our radar. He knew the range of our radio. And he knew the range of surrounding units' radio and radar... There are some things which he knew on which he received instructions that there is no way of changing, such as the MPS 16 height-finder radar gear... He had also been schooled on a piece of machinery call a TPX-1, which is used to transfer radio--radar and radio signals over a great distance. Radar is very susceptible to homing missiles, and this piece of equipment is used to put your radar antenna several miles away, and relay the information back to your site which you hope is relatively safe. He had been schooled on this." [WC Vol. 8 p.298]
YET LEE OSWALD GOT HIS PASSPORT BACK AT THE US EMBASSY, GOT A LOAN TO RETURN TO THE USA WITH A SOVIET WIFE AND BABY IN TOW, AND UPON HIS RETURN TO THE USA WAS NOT ARRESTED. FOR YEARS, THE US GOVT. DENIED THAT LEE HAD EVEN BEEN INTERVIEWED, THOUGH LEE TOLD ME HE HAD BEEN DEBRIEFED UPON BOTH HIS RETURN TO THE USA AND AGAIN UPON HIS RETURN FROM MEXICO CITY (AT THE YMCA IN DALLAS). NOT ONLY IS LEE NOT ARRESTED, HE ALSO GETS HIS UNEXPIRED PASSPORT RENEWED IN JUST 24 HOURS -- AND I WAS GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO MEET THE MAN WHO 'EXPEDITED' THAT EVENT. We need Justice for Kennedy, an understanding of who took over our country illegally, and justice for Lee Oswald's family. SPREAD THE WORD AND JOIN ME IN THE FIGHT FOR TRUTH AND FREEDOM. Thank you.
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Judyth Baker posted this on my Facebook page today and although it is not precisely on topic here, it is still relevant:
-------
What military information did Oswald have access to? According to Oswald's Marine crew commander at El Toro, Lt.. John Donovan:

"He had access to the location of all bases in the west coast areas, all radio frequencies for all squadrons, all tactical call signs, and the relative strength of all squadrons, number and type of aircraft in a squadron, who was the commanding officer, the authentication code of entering and exiting the ADIZ, which stand for Air Defense Identification Zone. He knew the range of our radar. He knew the range of our radio. And he knew the range of surrounding units' radio and radar... There are some things which he knew on which he received instructions that there is no way of changing, such as the MPS 16 height-finder radar gear... He had also been schooled on a piece of machinery call a TPX-1, which is used to transfer radio--radar and radio signals over a great distance. Radar is very susceptible to homing missiles, and this piece of equipment is used to put your radar antenna several miles away, and relay the information back to your site which you hope is relatively safe. He had been schooled on this." [WC Vol. 8 p.298]

YET LEE OSWALD GOT HIS PASSPORT BACK AT THE US EMBASSY, GOT A LOAN TO RETURN TO THE USA WITH A SOVIET WIFE AND BABY IN TOW, AND UPON HIS RETURN TO THE USA WAS NOT ARRESTED. FOR YEARS, THE US GOVT. DENIED THAT LEE HAD EVEN BEEN INTERVIEWED, THOUGH LEE TOLD ME HE HAD BEEN DEBRIEFED UPON BOTH HIS RETURN TO THE USA AND AGAIN UPON HIS RETURN FROM MEXICO CITY (AT THE YMCA IN DALLAS). NOT ONLY IS LEE NOT ARRESTED, HE ALSO GETS HIS UNEXPIRED PASSPORT RENEWED IN JUST 24 HOURS -- AND I WAS GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO MEET THE MAN WHO 'EXPEDITED' THAT EVENT. We need Justice for Kennedy, an understanding of who took over our country illegally, and justice for Lee Oswald's family. SPREAD THE WORD AND JOIN ME IN THE FIGHT FOR TRUTH AND FREEDOM. Thank you.

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

A question for Judyth:

Do you remember the name of the person who helped Lee get his passport renewed in just 24 hours?

Also, in your Facebook post to Douglas Caddy you wrote "unexpired passport." Is that what you meant to write, or did you mean to say "expired passport"?

Thank you,

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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  • 3 weeks later...

From the Spartacus article on David Atlee Phillips:

"David Atlee Phillips died of cancer on 7th July, 1988. He left behind an unpublished manuscript. The novel is about a CIA officer who lived in Mexico City. In the novel the character states: 'I was one of those officers who handled Lee Harvey Oswald... We gave him the mission of killing Fidel Castro in Cuba... I don't know why he killed Kennedy. But I do know he used precisely the plan we had devised against Castro.'"

The former leader of Alpha 66, Antonio Veciana, has recently stated that the "Maurice Bishop" who was his controller for a couple of years, and with whom he once met in the presence of Oswald during the summer of 1963, was indeed CIA officer David Atlee Phillips.

Veciana has stated that he arrived for the meeting with "Bishop" about fifteen minutes early and that Oswald was already there, apparently finishing up his meeting with "Bishop."

Veciana has stated that the purpose for his meeting with "Bishop" in Dallas that late summer day was to further the goal of assassinating Fidel Castro, and that that was Oswald's reason for being there, too.

Question:

Was the CIA (or perhaps just Phillips and friends) really planning on having Oswald get to Cuba somehow and shoot Castro with a high powered rifle from a tall building, or did they just want Oswald to believe that?

Tommy :sun

PS How does one go about finding and reading an "unpublished manuscript"?

Think "Capitalistic" free enterprise!

Tom

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  • 10 months later...

Sorry Tommy, missed your PPS at first read so I'll make a couple of observations.

First off, in regard to the Veciana remarks, if I recall correctly he primarily assumed Oswald was there to discuss what he was there for - which was ongoing assassination plans against Castro. That was an ongoing agenda between Veciana and Phillips not only in 1963 but for years afterwards up the similar plots in Latin America. Veciana only observed "Oswald" as he was leaving and my view would be that any meeting between Oswald and Phillips would have had more to do with spy games against the Cuban and Soviet embassies in Mexico City which Phillips was running, with propaganda against the FPCC which Phillips was taking over in his new assignment or just possible some tangential activities in the AM/SANTA project which involved seeding assets with FPCC credentials into Cuba via the Cuban embassy in Mexico City.

Second, a good deal of what Phillips did in later years was "situational" and in response to various Congressional investigations. His "unpublished" manuscript may well have been a signal to the Agency or to certain people at high levels in the agency not to hang him out to the HSCA - or that they better stonewall the HSCA. He played a key role in bolstering the legal defense for former intelligence personnel, which helped prevent any panic during the Congressional inquires but Phillips may also have felt it necessary to protect himself by essentially drawing a line in the sand for the Agency. It is also interesting that he appears to have directed at least one author towards David Morales - something that upset Morales a great deal. We have to respect Phillips capabilities in disinformation and in running multiple concurrent games.

Third, and in answer to your question, my speculation is that Oswald had continued to talk to the same individuals or persons representing themselves as connected to the individuals he had met in New Orleans - who claimed to be Cuban G2. Given that his experience in Mexico City had not turned out nearly as well as his propaganda efforts in New Orleans, he may have been interested in following up with them and very possibly was pitched with a plan to get him into Cuba - such a contact would have made him once again of great interest to Phillips and the Agency. I do think something was in play with him but I don't think he had any real clue about an actual attack on the President.

-- Larry

Thanks Larry,

I'm a bit confused about your final paragraph where you suggest that Oswald was satisfied (or at least not unhappy) that his "propaganda efforts in New Orleans" went well. I doubt that Oswald wanted to discredit the FPCC so much that he was willing to be outed as a putative Marxist / Communist and "defector" to Russia on Stuckey's radio program.

It seems to me more likely that Oswald saw himself not as a propagandist, but as a dangle for anti-Castro and pro-Castro contacts in New Orleans and Dallas.

I think Oswald might have been monitoring, for the FBI, the people he thought were G2, so he pretended to go along with them but in so doing was manipulated into the patsy role.

Either that, or he was monitoring and pretending to go along with Banister and Phillips, et al., for the people he thought were G2, and got manipulated into the patsy role.

LOL

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Tommy, my remarks were speculation about Oswald's overall feelings as to his activities in New Orleans, which I see in a very broad role in regards to being a source on all sorts of activities - initially activities of interest to the FBI. The FBI was just as interested in aborting exile gun deals and new raids into Cuba as it was in exposing Castro agents or pro Castro Cubans inside the U.S. So literally any Cubans Oswald might come in contact with would be interesting to the Bureau. Oswald may very well have been playing spy at a low level, passing on information....while at the same time other factions were using him for their own purposes. INCA had its own propaganda interests and effectively "ambushed" Oswald, taking his history and building some potentially powerful propaganda pieces - such as the Oswald record - around it. To what extent they may have been encouraged in such efforts by CIA officers is unclear but certainly they were "directionally" consistent.

My view is that Oswald was building on a role that he had developed in Dallas, contacting a variety of potentially subversive groups and reporting any approaches they made to him. In his very first FBI interview upon his returned he had promised to do that and at some point it became a more developed pursuit for him. And while he was doing that he became visible to a number of different groups and individuals with their own agendas. By the time he returned from Mexico City, he simply had developed into a very viable patsy.

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Tommy, my remarks were speculation about Oswald's overall feelings as to his activities in New Orleans, which I see in a very broad role in regards to being a source on all sorts of activities - initially activities of interest to the FBI. The FBI was just as interested in aborting exile gun deals and new raids into Cuba as it was in exposing Castro agents or pro Castro Cubans inside the U.S. So literally any Cubans Oswald might come in contact with would be interesting to the Bureau. Oswald may very well have been playing spy at a low level, passing on information....while at the same time other factions were using him for their own purposes. INCA had its own propaganda interests and effectively "ambushed" Oswald, taking his history and building some potentially powerful propaganda pieces - such as the Oswald record - around it. To what extent they may have been encouraged in such efforts by CIA officers is unclear but certainly they were "directionally" consistent.

My view is that Oswald was building on a role that he had developed in Dallas, contacting a variety of potentially subversive groups and reporting any approaches they made to him. In his very first FBI interview upon his returned he had promised to do that and at some point it became a more developed pursuit for him. And while he was doing that he became visible to a number of different groups and individuals with their own agendas. By the time he returned from Mexico City, he simply had developed into a very viable patsy.

Larry,

Thanks for clarifying that.

It's interesting to think that Oswald was working for (or thought he was working for) the FBI, through Banister, not to wittingly discredit the FPCC (because to do so would suggest that he willingly let himself be outed by Stuckey as a Marxist and former "defector"), but as a dangle for many possible purposes. If Oswald was intentionally trying to discredit the FPCC, I can't think of any other way he could do that in New Orleans. Letting himself be outed, that is.

I think Oswald suspected Banister's intentions vis a vis Oswald and the FPCC project, and that's why he stamped some of the fliers with the Camp Street address -- to cleverly (so Oswald thought) document Banister's involvement with his anti-FPCC activities, so that if need be Oswald could later point to them and say "Look, I'm not a Communist, I was working for Banister!"

Thanks,

--Tommy :sun

PS Not to nitpick, but did you mean to say "New Orleans" instead of "Dallas" in your last paragraph?

Edited by Thomas Graves
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