Fred Black Jr.

[Chris Cox]

Tosh, why in 2000 or so were you contacted, do you think? I'm amazed at the late dates in Roselli interest. Maybe I'm missing something.

Best,

C

[William Plumlee]

Tosh, why in 2000 or so were you contacted, do you think?  I'm amazed at the late dates in Roselli interest.  Maybe I'm missing something.

Best,

C

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I understood that new information had been obtained on the Rosellie murder and the case was beimg looked at again.. What, or where that information came from, I do not know. nor, did I know if it was federal documents that had been recovered around 2000 or information from local law enforcement.

Hang in there..., later Tosh

[William Plumlee]

Tim,  I don't really play games with this subject - so no its not.

I have seen Roselli described as a Col. in a couple of places,  Brad Ayars is

one source for that.  I think Hinckle and Turner may have described him

as having a military rank too.  However I don't recall ever seeing any

CIA document that confirms that - frankly after looking at thousands of

such documents that doesn't mean I haven't seen it,  it very well could

mean I saw it and have forgotten - my memory is fair but far from

photographic.    I think that if I had seen such a document I would have

referenced it and put it in my book though....maybe somebody will remind

me it's in there...  After about 14 years at this my memory "buffer" is

overflowing,  no doubt about that.

If you have seen it and can describe the source I may well remember it

and probably have it somewhere in my files or on CD.  In that case I would

add it to my errata and credit you as I have a host of people who are

helping me make that work as historically accurate as possible. 

-- Larry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rosellie got tagged with the name Col. as a 'cut out' And I think that was given him by Harvey.. Rosellie never had an official rank as Col. His cover code at one time was Col. Rawlston and that introduction was only used a few (very few times) It was more of an "inside joke" and was used because; at the time the slang term Col was used a lot in those circles. I was once called "The General, by Rosellie. Tosh

[William Plumlee]

Tim,  I don't really play games with this subject - so no its not.

I have seen Roselli described as a Col. in a couple of places,  Brad Ayars is

one source for that.   I think Hinckle and Turner may have described him

as having a military rank too.   However I don't recall ever seeing any

CIA document that confirms that - frankly after looking at thousands of

such documents that doesn't mean I haven't seen it,  it very well could

mean I saw it and have forgotten - my memory is fair but far from

photographic.    I think that if I had seen such a document I would have

referenced it and put it in my book though....maybe somebody will remind

me it's in there...   After about 14 years at this my memory "buffer" is

overflowing,  no doubt about that.

If you have seen it and can describe the source I may well remember it

and probably have it somewhere in my files or on CD.   In that case I would

add it to my errata and credit you as I have a host of people who are

helping me make that work as historically accurate as possible. 

-- Larry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rosellie got tagged with the name Col. as a 'cut out' And I think that was given him by Harvey.. Rosellie never had an official rank as Col. His cover code at one time was Col. Rawlston and that introduction was only used a few (very few times) It was more of an "inside joke" and was used because; at the time the slang term Col was used a lot in those circles. I was once called "The General, by Rosellie. Tosh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

P.S. At one time in 1962 and a few times later around JMWAVE HQ and Miami's "Cuban Desk", Rosellie was known as Col. Rawlston. In fact he signed in the gate on the way to Zenith Tech. (#bld 25 south camous Miami University) as Col Rawlston. Foe awhile those logs were available, but they became lost. (I was told this) Gordon Winslow might have found the old sign in logs, but I would not know about that. They were available to Miami Dade County in 1977. ???? Tosh

[William Plumlee]

[Delete duplicate post)

Edited November 1, 2004 by William Plumlee

[Larry Hancock]

Tosh, I'm checking in with Gordon and will post any remarks he has about the logs and whether or not he has them or knows where they are...

-- Larry

[John Simkin]

There is an interesting passage on Fred Black in Bobby Baker's Wheeling and Dealing (pages 169-171):

Fred Black was a superlobbyist who drew a $300,000 salary from North American Aviation. He was paid another $75,000 or so per year by Melpar, Inc., a subsidiary of North American. His other income sources, and I'm not sure what they were, brought him an income of about a half million dollars per year in the late 1950s and early 1960s - and you can imagine what they would translate to in terms of present values. But a half million per year just wasn't enough money for Fred Black. He was a playboy of the first order; if he couldn't go first class, then he wouldn't take the trip.

He kept a hotel suite at the Sheraton-Carlton in Washington where he and his friends - and I was among them-repaired to conduct business, drink, play cards, or entertain ladies. Though we did not then know it, that suite was bugged by the FBI. They must have heard some interesting doings. Black also owned a huge home which shared a backyard fence with Vice-President Lyndon Johnson, after Johnson bought Perle Mesta's house in the exclusive Spring Valley section of Northwest Washington.

Black thought nothing of betting $5,000 on a horse race. He lost thousands at cards to Senator Kerr. What he didn't lose at the racetrack or to Senator Kerr he lost to Las Vegas casinos. He had a quick eye and a grand way with shapely ladies. He loved booze. In short, Fred Black thought little more about tomorrow than did a fattening hog; though he always filed his income tax returns in timely fashion, he rarely had the money to pay his taxes when due.

Senator Kerr and Fred Black originally proposed to go into the vending machine business together. There was big money to be made, Kerr said, by gaining a near monopoly on soft drink, candy, and cigarette machines to be installed at sites where companies were performing defense-related work that depended on government contracts. I've heard that Clark Clifford, the Washington lawyer-lobbyist who's been close to every Democratic administration beginning with Harry Truman's, talked Senator Kerr out of investing in the scheme because it clearly would constitute a conflict of interest on Kerr's part.

Senator Kerr then told Fred Black, "I want to help Bobby Baker. I'll get you the financing if you guys want to go into the vending machine business. There's a fortune to be made." True to his word, Senator Kerr obtained a $400,000 loan for us from the Fidelity National Bank and Trust Company of Oklahoma City, in which he owned stock. We spent the money for vending machines, installing them-among other places-at North American Aviation and at several subsidiary sites. Within a couple of years the Serv-U Corporation we founded-along with my law partner, Ernest Tucker; a Las Vegas hotel-casino man, Eddie Levinson; and a Miami investor and gambler, Benjamin B. Siegelbaum - was grossing $3 million annually. I owned 28.5 percent of the Ser-U Corporation in those days - none now.

I find the passage about the FBI bugging Black’s conversations interesting. I wonder what Baker meant by “They must have heard some interesting doings.” If LBJ was involved in the conspiracy to kill JFK, he would definitely have involved Fred Black. If that was the case, Hoover would have known what they were up to. In fact, it was Hoover who told LBJ that Baker was involved with Ed Levinson and Ben Siegelbaum.

If Black is still alive, he would be an interesting person to interview.

[William Plumlee]

"...I find the passage about the FBI bugging Black’s conversations interesting. I wonder what Baker meant by “They must have heard some interesting doings.” If LBJ was involved in the conspiracy to kill JFK, he would definitely have involved Fred Black. If that was the case, Hoover would have known what they were up to. In fact, it was Hoover who told LBJ that Baker was involved with Ed Levinson and Ben Siegelbaum. ...".

If Black is still alive, he would be an interesting person to interview.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

John: I have already been working on that angle for sometime now ... I will be in Texas in a few weeks and I have a lead on very interesting material from an old man down there who use to work at Ling-Temco-Vaught and would like to talk about 'old' times he had with some of the Texas 'good ole boys', around Austin through the fifties and sixties. At one time he worked for LBJ. says he has documents and important information he would like to share.

I was warned a few months ago, by another source from Austin '...that it would be best for me to pass on talking to much with some of these people. It was said. "..Texans don't like certain matters brought to the surface again."

I was raised in Texas during the, 40's; 50's; and 60's; and I know what this means. I have previously asked Forum members for help on anything about Black and others like the Texas (Dallas) Cubans, but nothing important or solid came back. Thanks. However, things are moving forward. Tosh

Edited November 16, 2004 by William Plumlee

[John Simkin]

Another interesting bit of information about Fred Black that can be found in Bobby Baker’s book, Wheeling and Dealing (page 209). Baker points out that the FBI bugged Fred Black’s Sheraton-Carlton Suite for six months. One of his regular visitors was Gerald Ford. Whatever they were up to, it was caught on tape. Maybe that is why LBJ and Hoover were so keen on Ford joining the Warren Commission. In fact, it was Ford who kept Hoover informed on what was going on. It was Ford who told Hoover that Norman Redlich was taking the investigation too seriously. As a result information was leaked to right-wing Republicans that Redlich was a communist sympathizer. After pressure from Warren, Redlich backed down and went along with the rest of the staff members. Redlich is still alive but has been unwilling to answer my emails.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKredlich.htm

[Nancy Eldreth]

I was raised in Texas during the, 40's; 50's; and 60's; and I know what this means. I have previously asked Forum members for help on anything about Black and others like the Texas (Dallas) Cubans, but nothing important or solid came back. Thanks. However, things are moving forward. (Tosh Plumlee)

Yes, Tosh things are beginning to take a turn in a upward direction. Keep your fingers crossed and a prayer upon on your lips, for it. I do believe in the fact that God puts us where he wants us to be at all times. I talked to a very nice lady tonight and maybe with some luck something magical can happen.

If it does work out then it will be a very BIG break through!!!

[John Simkin]

The Namebase entry for Fred Black

http://www.namebase.org/xbit/Fred-B-jr-Black.html

Denton,S. Morris,R. The Money and the Power. 2001 (309, 311)

Lasky,V. It Didn't Start With Watergate. 1978 (124-5)

Moldea,D. Interference. 1989 (173)

Reid,E. Demaris,O. The Green Felt Jungle. 1964 (218-9)

Scott,P.D. Deep Politics. 1993 (218, 223, 235)

Summers,A. Official and Confidential. 1993 (318)

Thomas,E. The Man to See. 1991 (201-2)

Turner,W. Hoover's FBI. 1993 (90, 294-5)

Winter-Berger,R. The Washington Pay-Off. 1972 (231)

Wise,D. The American Police State. 1978 (151, 275)

[John Simkin]

James Richards has managed to obtain a photograph of Fred Black.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKbakerF.htm

[John Simkin]

Here is another passage from Bobby Baker's, Wheeling and Dealing: Confessions of a Capitol Hill Operator (1978):

Edward Bennett Williams said, "Bobby, you can never figure what a jury will do. It's a roll of the dice. Think about it. Bill Bittman's tough. Bobby Kennedy put him on the Jimmy Hoffa case because he's like a bulldog, and he put Hoffa in Jail. There's a lot of press hysteria connected with your case and the political implications are grave."

I thought about it while Williams silently drove the car and then said, "Ed, absolutely under no circumstances do you have authority to tell Bittman I'll plead guilty to one damn thing. If I do, the press will play it that I got my wrists slapped, that I copped out, that a fix was in. The assumption of total guilt will be with me the rest of my life."

"Well," he said, "it will be with you if a jury finds you guilty, too."

"Maybe they can kill me," I said, "but they can't eat me. I'll go to trial."

"I concur with your decision," Williams said. "I didn't want to influence you, because if something goes wrong then you're the guy who will have to pay the piper."

I knew that William O. Bittman was a tough nut. He had hard, cold eyes and by his own admission was humorless. A bulky former line-backer for Marquette University, lie wore his hair in a crewcut and reminded me of a man the nation Would later get to know - H. R. Halderman of the Nixon staff. I knew from his wiretapping, electronic buggings, and the pressure he'd applied to potential witnesses that Bittman would play hardball all the way (I learned that when the FBI bugged Fred Black's Sheraton-Carlton Suite for six months, one of the periodic visitors there was a congressman named Jerry Ford. He was friendly with Black, but I don't know what he used the suite for). Yet, I could not bear the thought of being labeled as a guy who'd stolen from his best friend. I wanted to get my relationship with Senator Kerr on the record and was willing to run risks in order to do that. Edward Bennett Williams had been preparing my case for almost two years; I had confidence in his ability to get my story across.

[John Simkin]

Larry Hancock: In the new edition of “Someone Would Have Talked” you include Johnson's Daily Log for August 21, 1963 (page 411). I assume you published this because of LBJ's meeting with Bobby Baker and Fred Black. I see that also at the meeting was N.A. Storm of North American Aviation. Why do you think this document is important? Does it refer to the Bobby Baker scandal or to some other deal that LBJ was doing with these men. Black was of course a partner in the Serve-U-Corporation that had a vending machine contract with North American Aviation.

[John Simkin]

Larry Hancock: In the new edition of “Someone Would Have Talked” you include Johnson's Daily Log for August 21, 1963 (page 411). I assume you published this because of LBJ's meeting with Bobby Baker and Fred Black. I see that also at the meeting was N.A. Storm of North American Aviation. Why do you think this document is important? Does it refer to the Bobby Baker scandal or to some other deal that LBJ was doing with these men. Black was of course a partner in the Serve-U-Corporation that had a vending machine contract with North American Aviation.

I feel the meeting in question is extremely important because it created a documented, official paper trail that would have illustrated Baker using Johnson's personal influence (this is not just a DC cocktail party handshake but a scheduled meeting, albeit brief, in the VP's office) to support his use of Johnson's patronage in deal making. The meeting occurs in the timeframe in which Baker, Black and their Vegas partners are putting together the Serve U Corp government contractor deals.

Having this meeting accessable to Congressional investigation was a huge risk when the Baker scandal blew up and the investigations began. Of course Baker could always have used it to expose Johnson but more importantly Fred Black would have been well aware of the significance and a few remarks under oath - he had been scheduled to testify - could easily have made Johnson front page news and effectively contaminated him beyond political recover since he was very much on the edge at that point anyway.

When you combine that with the fact that Fred Black was John Roselli's confidant and long time friend - enough so that Roselli stayed with Black when testifying to the Federal committees I think the potential exposure of Johnson (call it access, call it leverage, call it blackmail) is immense. Not to mention that Black, Baker, Johnson and Hoover all lived within approximately a block of each other. If one is seeking something specific that could bring Johnson into a conspiracy, I feel this would be it....