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Waldman - the Order copies - the FBI - & the Microfilm

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Since the microfilm related to this order has vanished from the ARCHIVES while the box remains... I had hoped to understand when the copy of the "blank order form" was made, by whom, and what was the chain of possession...

Mr. BELIN. And on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7, there is a Serial No C-2766?
Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.
Mr. BELIN. Was this serial number on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 the first contact you had on Friday evening that led you to believe that you had shipped this particular rifle?
Mr. SCIBOR. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. When did you discover or find out this information, if you know--strike the question.
I believe you said you got down here about 10 o'clock that night?
Mr. SCIBOR. Between 10 and 11.
Mr. BELIN. And then you started going through your microfilm records?
Mr. SCIBOR. Right.
Mr. BELIN. About when did you actually find the microfilm of which Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print?
Mr. SCIBOR. About 4 o'clock in the roaming (sic), a
s far as I can remember.
Mr. BELIN. You then turned this information over to the FBI?
Mr. SCIBOR. Mr. Waldman did.


Mr. BELIN. I'm handing you what has been marked as an FBI Exhibit D-77 and ask you if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is a microfilm record that---of mail order transactions for a given period of time. It was turned over by us to the FBI.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know when it was turned over to the FBI?
Mr. WALDMAN. It was turned over to them on November 23, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you are reading from the carton containing that microfilm. Do you know whose initials are on there?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the initials on here are mine and they were put on the date on which this was turned over to the FBI concerned with the investigation.
Mr. BELIN. You have on your premises a machine for looking at the microfilm prints?
Mr. BELIN. And you can make copies of the microfilm prints?

So we have a Mitchell Scribor who was in the room with Waldman at the time and claims to have found the correct microfilm cannister... yet instead of printing copies immediately for the FBI,

the FBI TAKES THE ORIGINAL FILM which supposedly then goes to BULAB for "analysis". (Need to follow-up wiht research into DOLAN and if there is a report on his activity with the microfilm)

Finally.... I fail to understand how the "exhibit" is retrieved from a LaSalle Nat'l Bank Safety Deposit box on 2/3/64 if the FBI has the microfilm

I fail to understand how an "ORDER BLANK" shows the sale of an Italian carbine yet it is only the ENVELOPE that has the HIDELL address... ("order blank" is used over and over....)

and finally, the FBI and the ARCHIVES have insured we will NEVER see an original - much in the same way school records and military records go from "originals" to coppies of copies..



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David - this is an important question. If you have time could you write some background so I can follow this a little better, or direct me to some good research on the Hidell rifle order?

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While I have done quite a bit of research and evidence compilation - found if you search here, Gil Jesus' work on the order coupled with Armstrong's (you can find a wealth of his work at the Baylor site: http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/tabs/collection/po-arm provides great info.... and Jack White did a great essay on the Money order in 2005. Moyer on the rifle order is a great essay as well.

For simplicity I will try to recap...

The accusation is that the FBI created the evidence after the fact and - as with so many other submitted COPIES OF EVIDENCE - had the original microfilm BEFORE copies were made... while today that microfilm is gone which means there is simply no way to authenticate a COPY of a MICROFILM COPY of an original - let alone find out why they kept the envelope....

The Microfilm is no longer at NARA per John Armstrong who tells me he saw the box, but there was no film inside..

Notice the order numbers... A review of these orders (HIDELL WAS 270502, 94 orders prior to the end of the roll... surely there was another of these special 40" shipments for a C20-T750 ordered which PROVES they sent everyone a FC rifle in place of the TS ordered... but we didn't get that.


We have Waldman handing the FBI this film and it's the FBI who finally tell us that on 2/3/64 the image of the "ORDER BLANK" showing one C2766 rifle ordered - yet no other identifying marks like HIDELL on the ORDER BLANK

while they also microfilmed the ENVELOPE? which does have HIDELL...

We have Welte and Shanahan retreiving this "exhibit: the film and prints from a LaSalle Nat'l Bank Safety Deposit Box (??? - I am wading thru the WCD, FBI reports and Armstron/Weisberg archives to see if there is any other mention of this situation - so far only this one page comes up)

Paul - the ONLY THING that ties HIDELL to C2766 and VC836 is this one "ORDER BLANK" with the hand written notation - and the inventory master sheet that related the two.

When an order comes in on a coupon, Kleins then creates the order on these ORDER BLANKS... as we look closely at it... and as written in the FBI report... the order was for an italian carbine...

yet the NAME and the VC & Serial numbers are all in different writing or type face...

If one were to take an ORDER BLANK and type in HIDELL and write in the SN & VC #'s... we have an order form for HIDELL's order of a C20-T750... fortunately for us, we know that THAT ID# is not for an FC rifle of 40"

Sure be nice to see what ANY OTHER ORDER looked like....


Here are the packing slips with the related VC #'s they were assigned to... there is simply no rhyme or reason to the numbering... when Klein's personnel tells us they opened the cartons and visually/manually inspected each rifle and recorded it's number next to the SN.


and here are how they are assigned on the "master list" - again... if they were opening up 10 cartons of all the same rifle - why are their assigned VC #'s scattered all over??

(Note: I either color coded those on the same packing slip or highlighted them all the same size...

VC789 and VC840 are on the same packing slip yet are about as far apart on this list as possible... and only 4 VC#'s past C2766...

Wish we had more info on this process as it sure appears random to me.


Without the "HIDELL & Oswald's POBox" and the "C2766/VC836" all we have is the order coupon and envelope and the HSCA telling us what it can.

Surely there are still microfilm records of the orders from that year unless destroyed... ANY order for C20-T50 should shed light on what was happening at KLEINS with those orders...

Finally Paul... KLEINS was accepting and shipping orders for C20-T750 since Feb/Mar 1962... yet there are no records of them receiving any TS rifles to fulfill these shipments, only FC rifles delivered in Feb 1963.

I've asked DVP who cannot respond... asked every LNer WCR apologist I know to tell us what KLEINS was doing with these TS orders...

One would think if KLEINS had established shipping the 40" rifle in it's place, the FBI would LOVE to have a few examples to support their case.... not only no such luck, but the one batch of orders that are most meaningful

are no longer accessible...




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Strange how every Carcano in America seems to have a serial number and other identifying marks, yet the contract with the Italian government required all serial numbers and other identifying marks to be removed in Italy, prior to export to America.

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