The Education Forum

# Laying A Foundation

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The street grade of Elm St.

3degrees 8minutes = 3.13degrees = 5.464 slope percent = May 1964 WC Plat

3degrees 9minutes = 3.15 degrees = 5.499 slope percent = Warren Report (Don't worry about this entry for now)

If you are traveling down Elm St, for every 18.3ft you travel, a change of 1ft in elevation occurs.

At some point, some of these numbers may sound familiar, just not in the context we usually associate them with.

chris

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The alteration zone (Elm St) was mapped out in a few increments of 30.25ft/very close to this.

The height of the 6th floor window ledge was determined to be 60.7ft high.

The correlation between the above is 30.25 x 2 = 60.5ft which is very close to 60.7ft.

30.2ft is the distance from JFK's street position aligned with the light pole via the extant Zfilm frame 272 to the z313 headshot.

30.2 ft is the distance from z313 to the SS determined last shot position of JFK down near Altgens.

30.2ft is also the distance from z133 (start of limo on film) to z166 of which no data was supplied from CE884 as that document started its entries at Z168.

Three 30ft segments = 90ft = distance determined by WC between first and last shot.

chris

Edited by Chris Davidson
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Comparison:

WC scenario: 2 shots @ 90ft apart in 5.5seconds.

Referencing some of Robert Mady's work: 4shot scenario 1st shot circa Z190

(2nd shot at Z313, 3rd at 325, I'll place the last one near Altgens position (CE875) This grouping of 3 shots is 30.2ft apart.

30.2ft/5.5sec =5.49ft per sec = 3.74mph.

If you take the timing between the WC shots scenario and apply it to Robert's shot sequence starting with the Z313 headshot, a limo traveling at 3.74 mph for 30.2ft gives you a shot down in front of Altgens.

The difference in distance between these two scenarios is 60.5ft

chris

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What's so important about a car traveling 3.74mph?

It all goes back to CE 884 and the first 2 entries.

When the powers that be were figuring out how to tie everything back to one TSBD location in terms of frame count and distance hiding, they extended their computations onto this document.

The first span of frames 168-171 = .9ft traveled in 3 frames

Expanded this equates to 18.3/3 = 6.1multiplier x .9ft = 5.49ft per sec= 3.734mph = Altgen's match.

chris

Edited by Chris Davidson
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The WC supplied us with some documentation to peruse. They just made it real difficult to decipher how they went about accomplishing the feat.

If you will notice the top entry in CE884 is Position A. They did not enter a Station# for this spot on Elm St. Kind of wonder why!!!

Originally, they had Z161 assigned to Station # 3+29.2, eventually they changed it to Z168 as entered in document CE884.

So, from "Station C to Position A" = 44ft

And, from Station C to Z168= 94.7ft

So, from Position A to Z168 = 94.7ft-44ft = 50.7ft.

chris

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Why is that important?

It's the beginning.

As you can see in document CE884, the first # frame is Z168.

The distance traveled per frame for entries 168-171 is .3ft

169frames @ .3ft = 50.7ft

169frames@18.3frames per sec = 9.23sec

50.7ft/9.23sec = 5.49ft per sec =3.74mph

When you are asked where the WC started their frame alteration/computation shenanigans, respond with "POSITION A"

chris

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It's fairly obvious from Towners film at Position A and on, and from Z133 on, that the limo was never traveling anywhere close to 3.74 mph during these segments.

Let me carry this down aways in terms of distances, frame count and average speeds.

We know that from Position A to Z168 is 50.7ft.

From Z168 to Z313 is 136.1ft

So, from Position A to Z313 = 186.8ft.

311 frames @18.3 frames per sec@186.8ft = 7.48 mph average

That is exactly twice the speed of 3.74mph.

chris

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60.5ft/5.5sec = 11ft per sec = 7.48mph

chris

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The difference between the two limo speeds of 3.74 and 7.48mph in terms of film frames equals extracting "every other frame".

In case you missed that part.

chris

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In CE884 the first 18 frame entry Z168-186 has the limo travel 21.6ft.

That speed in terms of mph = 18.3/18 x 21.6ft = 21.96ft sec = 14.94mph

Close to exactly doubling the 7.48mph speed derived earlier.

Or, a car traveling at 7.48mph with "every other frame removed" is now moving at 14.96mph.

chris

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Chris, maybe I am not comprehending your posts, let me study it again tomorrow

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Robert,

Four shot scenario model

~Z-190 shot 1 - 'firecracker' like sound - cause throat wound

~Z-313 shot 2 - 'high powered rifle' - cause fatal head wound

~Z-325 shot 3 - 'high powered rifle' - cause wound to CONNALLY

~Z-360 shot 4 - 'high powered rifle' - cause wound to TAGUE

Not sure how I misrepresented your 4 shot model, but no problem. I will not make reference to any of your information.

If you want the existing reference deleted from the original post, just say so.

chris

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Chris, according to a popular Sprague map of DP with marked locations of limo on Elm for specific frames the speed of the limo appears to be relatively constant. When each marked location is measured against Z-313 then frame difference is divided by distance, the distance is fairly constant.

What is the probability that the Zapruder film was not altered with significant frame removal after Z-133 until Z-313? In other words what we are seeing in the Z-film until Z-313 is actual timing of the assassination and that frames were primarily removed following Z-313 to cover CONNALLYS movements and the limo slowing to allow CLINT HILL to board?

Also my point on the Assassination Four shot Model, can't compare the WC/R three shots timing to three rifle shots in the A4 model because the timing is not the same in any respect, that was my point. I could not understand why there was any comparison made.

I am interested to understand how you are determining lost frames.

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Robert,

Let me answer the question pertaining to how I perceived you scenario.

4 shots total. The first happens much earlier than extant313. You have 3 shots occurring afterwards beginning with extant313.

So, from extant313 on,there are 3 total shots. I know that you stated that the duration for these 3 shots was somewhere around 3-3.5 seconds.

The change I made was the duration from your estimation to 5.5sec. Yes, I understand your timing is different than the scenario I described.

You listed the final shot circa extant z360 . What I wrote in the original was "I'll place the last one near Altgens position (CE875) This grouping of 3 shots is 30.2ft apart."

In other words, I took your Z360 shot and put it at the SS determined position (near Altgens) for that shot, while incorporating the speed of the limo tied back to the WC number fudging scheme.

When you describe z360 as your last shot, where exactly on Elm St. is that supposed to be? Is it at the location we actually see on the extant film itself at Z360? Distance needed?

chris

P.S

I'll get to the other questions a little later.

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Chris you basically have it but are you incorporating all of the aspects that it entails

Such as the three rifle shots starting at Z-313.

We have discussed that there is probably three seconds of film removed from Z-313 to Z-325, in that the CONNALLYS movements during this period of time is not possible and the only conceivable explanation is that frames had to have been removed. You can't then use the 3 to 3.5 seconds and project that on the remaining frames to get any sort of result for distances traveled. There is no longer any correlation if frames have been altered.

Maybe I am just not catching on to what your posting, keep going sometimes I am slow on the draw, but seemly accurate on the aim, so carry on please.

Sorry to have interrupted.