Judyth Vary Baker to be on Coasttocoastam tomorrow night

[Stephen Roy]

I agree with Pamela. It's a waste of time and it's polluting real research. Avoid.

[Guest]

What is fascinating is that almost all fields of Weirdness (a category in which I include the JFK assassination) are littered with characters like JVB. The Roswell UFO crash debate has had numerous versions of JVB over the past three decades; they surface, cause a great brouhaha for a while, are exposed, and fade into obscurity except among a handful of True Believer groupies. What causes someone to devote this much time and effort to creating a JVB persona? The financial rewards in these esoteric fields are miniscule, as even popular authors have assured me. Is the psychological gratification of being Somebody Important to a tiny cult following really worth all the effort? Is it possible that JVB and her ilk are knowing tools in a sophisticated disinformation campaign, designed to derail serious research and make the entire field look silly? There actually was some of this in ufology, but the gratification of being Somebody Important to a tiny cult following seems a more plausible explanation in JVB's case. I have a good friend who is the JVB of an entirely different field; he derives virtually zero income (although a big payoff is always his hope) and is viewed as a deluded fool by 99% of those within the esoteric field, but for some weird reason he is content to be Somebody Important and Mysterious to the handful of lunatics at the far edge of the lunatic fringe.

[James DiEugenio]

PB: To my recollection as an historian of all things, including Judyth, I would have to say that the first time I came across this phrase was when the bullish Prof Fetzer was trying to defend Judyth on the Ed Forum long ago. So I attribute this statement to him. The rest of us are, supposedly, to 'trust' his judgment and accept this as a fact. What this represents, in fact, is a fallacy of logic called "appeal to authority", in which a person is told to 'believe' something because a supposedly credible person told him so. Dr. Fetzer, of course, knows all about fallacies of logic, as this was part of his area of expertise when he taught at UMD. So, to have a prof of logic pushing a fallacy of logic seems to defy logic imo.

​Its accurate that Fetzer officially went over Niagara with his incredibly stupid defense of Baker. I actually tried to talk him out of that privately. I told him he had never investigated New Orleans on the ground, and had never read Garrison's files. So it was dumb of him to pronounce judgment on Baker when he himself had done no first hand inquiry into her. I then encouraged him to talk to someone who had done these things, and I suggested say Bill Davy.

​He never did. And this is where I officially began to distance myself from Fetzer. And I also began to think something was up with him. Either that or he was becoming an egomaniac--all truth in the case had to be certified by him. When, in fact, he had made no scholarly effort to discern the truth about Baker. To my knowledge, he never even called Carol Hewett in Florida who did work on her for Sixty Minutes.

Fetzer then stayed on this wild tangent with Mary's Mosaic, Cinque, Israel's sponsorship of the JFK hit etc. In each case, it was a "test" for the JFK community. When in fact, it was really a test for how far underwater Fetzer would take himself.

Well, as David Lifton has pointed out, Fetzer's wild descent ended up (inevitably) in Holocaust Denial. As Lifton has noted, Fetzer recently wrote the intro for a British professor's book on the subject. Which got the professor terminated.

​This is the kind of stuff Fetzer, who TInk Thompson called the professor from Duluth, has now descended into.

Edited November 26, 2015 by James DiEugenio

[Scott Kaiser]

The Roswell UFO crash debate has had numerous versions of JVB over the past three decades;

Maybe, she's an alien?

I just got off the phone with KGB intelligence, Putin tells me the reason Oswald went to Mexico is because both Oswald and Judyth Baker wanted to live there after their marriage in Mexico. But, before leaving to Mexico, they wanted to have their honeymoon in Cuba, Judyth thought what a great idea, we can than ask to see Fidel Castro, Oswald said sure that's what we'll do, but first let's brew up a potion of your cancer killing agents, and when we get close enough to Castro you Judyth will inject him, Judyth replied sounds like a great idea, however, the G-2 were on to Judyth and Oswald, and Castro said NO! They're not allowed in Cuba.

Oswald was so disappointed that he asked to have his picture taken at the Embassy, he said, this is a tape recording conversation about me requesting my passport to Russia, please give this tape to Win Scott of the CIA. When Scott received the tape he gave it to Ann Goodpasture who says she gave it to the FBI, but no one knows where the hell or who the hell has it.

To their disappointment the two young lovers marriage was called off because they each discovered the other was still married to someone else so getting married in Mexico wouldn't have helped any. But, they were in total and absolute love with each other that after only knowing each other for three months Oswald completely opened up to Judyth and told her everything there is to know about him. Oswald introduced Judyth to Dave Ferre, Carlos Marcello and Guy Banister, Oswald said, Judyth, these are the guy's I'm working for.

In-fact, Oswald told Judyth he had to leave New Orleans, not because his wife and children are living in Dallas and he misses them, especially his little girls. But, the real reason he had to leave for Dallas was he needed to save the president from some assassin, he told Judyth, I'm going to get me a job at the TSBD and just as the motorcade drives by I'm going to throw a firecracker out the window as a warning to the president that someone is trying to kill you.

Judyth was heartbroken, she pleaded and pleaded with Oswald not to go, she said, my God my love, but what if they thought it was you who killed the president someone might want to kill you too, and I couldn't live with that thinking we had a chance of getting married, and then someone took you away from me. I would need to write a book and call it Me & Lee, you see it's because I have to put me before Lee.

Lee said, do what you have to do my love, if I'm successful, and I save the president we could then live happily forever after plotting ways to kill Castro together. The next thing that KGB agent man told me was, and Lee left, he told Judyth to keep her check stub because it will be enough proof that they were once lovers.

The End.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Scott Kaiser

[Pamela Brown]

When journalists see the connection between Baker and Fetzer, checking Fetzer's record should be enough for them to do some due diligence on Baker. When it's not, I question the legitimacy or motives of the journalist.

Exactly, Paul. It seems to me Fetzer has perhaps been delibrately following an insidious objective; namely, to create a false history of the assassination through an appeal to authority (him) and then bully and ridicule anyone who doesn't agree with him. If that is the case, any project that has a connection to him or that he has mentored is suspect. I would love to be mistaken, but, having had to butt heads with Fetzer regularly over the years, I doubt that I am...

[Pamela Brown]

The work done by David Josephs has put the final nail in her coffin. She even lied about working with LHO. So now it's back to death treats, eh? True desperation. I am a huge fan of Trine Day but Chris seems to be easily conned by Baker.

Doug (Caddy) I clicked on the link to read what Parker said about Trine day needing to be closed down and it only took me to his forum, not the post to which you referred. I could not disagree more. But I have little respect for Parker. (And know he has even less for me). So am not surprised by his voice for censorship. After all he is the only one who has the truth. Right?

Happy Thanksgiving to all here in the US.

Dawn

I am concerned about Trine Day. Anyone who can blindly support Judyth is not living in the real world imo...

[Pamela Brown]

What is fascinating is that almost all fields of Weirdness (a category in which I include the JFK assassination) are littered with characters like JVB. The Roswell UFO crash debate has had numerous versions of JVB over the past three decades; they surface, cause a great brouhaha for a while, are exposed, and fade into obscurity except among a handful of True Believer groupies. What causes someone to devote this much time and effort to creating a JVB persona? The financial rewards in these esoteric fields are miniscule, as even popular authors have assured me. Is the psychological gratification of being Somebody Important to a tiny cult following really worth all the effort? Is it possible that JVB and her ilk are knowing tools in a sophisticated disinformation campaign, designed to derail serious research and make the entire field look silly? There actually was some of this in ufology, but the gratification of being Somebody Important to a tiny cult following seems a more plausible explanation in JVB's case. I have a good friend who is the JVB of an entirely different field; he derives virtually zero income (although a big payoff is always his hope) and is viewed as a deluded fool by 99% of those within the esoteric field, but for some weird reason he is content to be Somebody Important and Mysterious to the handful of lunatics at the far edge of the lunatic fringe.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head when you mention the possibility of a 'sophisticated disinformation campaign.' If you look at every book, project and person supported by Dr. Fetzer you will find some common denominators in that regard. Some of those whose essays were included in his earlier books, such as David Lifton, Dr. Mantik, and Vince Palamara, are true researchers imo who have done their best to put forth the truth as they understand it. On the other hand, Fetzer has been the mentor of most of the wacky theories about the assassination. He seems to have intentionally led people astray by using the power of his position of authority, as a Prof. of Logic at one time at UMD to bully people into accepting his false version of the events surrounding the assassination.

As Fetzer at one time considered me a threat, I know what it is like to have to deal with the wrath of his disapproval. Once he became involved with Judyth, as I was, at the time, a part of her camp, he let up on me, apparently because he thought I had been compromised. Fetzer's demands that anyone 'believe' Judyth, insisting that she is the 'real deal' are imo the most dangerous things he has done. He has even led Gov Jesse Ventura astray in this regard.

[Pamela Brown]

PB: To my recollection as an historian of all things, including Judyth, I would have to say that the first time I came across this phrase was when the bullish Prof Fetzer was trying to defend Judyth on the Ed Forum long ago. So I attribute this statement to him. The rest of us are, supposedly, to 'trust' his judgment and accept this as a fact. What this represents, in fact, is a fallacy of logic called "appeal to authority", in which a person is told to 'believe' something because a supposedly credible person told him so. Dr. Fetzer, of course, knows all about fallacies of logic, as this was part of his area of expertise when he taught at UMD. So, to have a prof of logic pushing a fallacy of logic seems to defy logic imo.

​Its accurate that Fetzer officially went over Niagara with his incredibly stupid defense of Baker. I actually tried to talk him out of that privately. I told him he had never investigated New Orleans on the ground, and had never read Garrison's files. So it was dumb of him to pronounce judgment on Baker when he himself had done no first hand inquiry into her. I then encouraged him to talk to someone who had done these things, and I suggested say Bill Davy.

​He never did. And this is where I officially began to distance myself from Fetzer. And I also began to think something was up with him. Either that or he was becoming an egomaniac--all truth in the case had to be certified by him. When, in fact, he had made no scholarly effort to discern the truth about Baker. To my knowledge, he never even called Carol Hewett in Florida who did work on her for Sixty Minutes.

Fetzer then stayed on this wild tangent with Mary's Mosaic, Cinque, Israel's sponsorship of the JFK hit etc. In each case, it was a "test" for the JFK community. When in fact, it was really a test for how far underwater Fetzer would take himself.

Well, as David Lifton has pointed out, Fetzer's wild descent ended up (inevitably) in Holocaust Denial. As Lifton has noted, Fetzer recently wrote the intro for a British professor's book on the subject. Which got the professor terminated.

​This is the kind of stuff Fetzer, who TInk Thompson called the professor from Duluth, has now descended into.

I feel I have no choice but to see Fetzer as the Goldstein to Gary Mack and McAdams' "Big Brother". Deliberately weaving a false history of the assassination and then demanding that everyone agree with him on it is about as low as anyone can go in my book. The only advantage seems to be that if we research a person or issue and find a Fetzer connection we know to be wary...:-0

[Pamela Brown]

The Roswell UFO crash debate has had numerous versions of JVB over the past three decades;

Maybe, she's an alien?

I just got off the phone with KGB intelligence, Putin tells me the reason Oswald went to Mexico is because both Oswald and Judyth Baker wanted to live there after their marriage in Mexico. But, before leaving to Mexico, they wanted to have their honeymoon in Cuba, Judyth thought what a great idea, we can than ask to see Fidel Castro, Oswald said sure that's what we'll do, but first let's brew up a potion of your cancer killing agents, and when we get close enough to Castro you Judyth will inject him, Judyth replied sounds like a great idea, however, the G-2 were on to Judyth and Oswald, and Castro said NO! They're not allowed in Cuba.

Oswald was so disappointed that he asked to have his picture taken at the Embassy, he said, this is a tape recording conversation about me requesting my passport to Russia, please give this tape to Win Scott of the CIA. When Scott received the tape he gave it to Ann Goodpasture who says she gave it to the FBI, but no one knows where the hell or who the hell has it.

To their disappointment the two young lovers marriage was called off because they each discovered the other was still married to someone else so getting married in Mexico wouldn't have helped any. But, they were in total and absolute love with each other that after only knowing each other for three months Oswald completely opened up to Judyth and told her everything there is to know about him. Oswald introduced Judyth to Dave Ferre, Carlos Marcello and Guy Banister, Oswald said, Judyth, these are the guy's I'm working for.

In-fact, Oswald told Judyth he had to leave New Orleans, not because his wife and children are living in Dallas and he misses them, especially his little girls. But, the real reason he had to leave for Dallas was he needed to save the president from some assassin, he told Judyth, I'm going to get me a job at the TSBD and just as the motorcade drives by I'm going to throw a firecracker out the window as a warning to the president that someone is trying to kill you.

Judyth was heartbroken, she pleaded and pleaded with Oswald not to go, she said, my God my love, but what if they thought it was you who killed the president someone might want to kill you too, and I couldn't live with that thinking we had a chance of getting married, and then someone took you away from me. I would need to write a book and call it Me & Lee, you see it's because I have to put me before Lee.

Lee said, do what you have to do my love, if I'm successful, and I save the president we could then live happily forever after plotting ways to kill Castro together. The next thing that KGB agent man told me was, and Lee left, he told Judyth to keep her check stub because it will be enough proof that they were once lovers.

The End.

When Judyth recruited me into her camp (actually, I think it might have been Fetzer who urged her to do this in the first place, as he considered me a threat and perhaps thought he could neutralize that by my getting sucked into her web) I received great volumes of emails from Judyth, including drafts of chapters her manuscript. I also researched her involvement with Joe Reihl at Loyola, I think, in NOLA. She took a writing class, and it was here that she wrote an early draft of her book as a novel. I repeatedly asked her why she developed a dramatic presentation instead of simply coming forth as a witness with documentation, but never got a clear answer. It became my conviction, which I still believe, that her one talent may be to be able to create a dramatic narrative by 'placing' herself in historical situations and then, as novelists do, smelling, thinking, feeling as these characters, and in that way bringing them to life. The peculiarities of her book, not to mention her continued 'revisions' of her 'history' tend imo to point to this possibility as well...

[Dawn Meredith]

PB: To my recollection as an historian of all things, including Judyth, I would have to say that the first time I came across this phrase was when the bullish Prof Fetzer was trying to defend Judyth on the Ed Forum long ago. So I attribute this statement to him. The rest of us are, supposedly, to 'trust' his judgment and accept this as a fact. What this represents, in fact, is a fallacy of logic called "appeal to authority", in which a person is told to 'believe' something because a supposedly credible person told him so. Dr. Fetzer, of course, knows all about fallacies of logic, as this was part of his area of expertise when he taught at UMD. So, to have a prof of logic pushing a fallacy of logic seems to defy logic imo.

​Its accurate that Fetzer officially went over Niagara with his incredibly stupid defense of Baker. I actually tried to talk him out of that privately. I told him he had never investigated New Orleans on the ground, and had never read Garrison's files. So it was dumb of him to pronounce judgment on Baker when he himself had done no first hand inquiry into her. I then encouraged him to talk to someone who had done these things, and I suggested say Bill Davy.

​He never did. And this is where I officially began to distance myself from Fetzer. And I also began to think something was up with him. Either that or he was becoming an egomaniac--all truth in the case had to be certified by him. When, in fact, he had made no scholarly effort to discern the truth about Baker. To my knowledge, he never even called Carol Hewett in Florida who did work on her for Sixty Minutes.

Fetzer then stayed on this wild tangent with Mary's Mosaic, Cinque, Israel's sponsorship of the JFK hit etc. In each case, it was a "test" for the JFK community. When in fact, it was really a test for how far underwater Fetzer would take himself.

Well, as David Lifton has pointed out, Fetzer's wild descent ended up (inevitably) in Holocaust Denial. As Lifton has noted, Fetzer recently wrote the intro for a British professor's book on the subject. Which got the professor terminated.

​This is the kind of stuff Fetzer, who TInk Thompson called the professor from Duluth, has now descended into.

Now he's "graduated" to the Paul is dead insanity, no one died anywhere (sandy Hook, Boston etc.) Anyone who takes him seriously- and many on facebook do- is doing so at their own peril.

[Dawn Meredith]

The work done by David Josephs has put the final nail in her coffin. She even lied about working with LHO. So now it's back to death treats, eh? True desperation. I am a huge fan of Trine Day but Chris seems to be easily conned by Baker.

Doug (Caddy) I clicked on the link to read what Parker said about Trine day needing to be closed down and it only took me to his forum, not the post to which you referred. I could not disagree more. But I have little respect for Parker. (And know he has even less for me). So am not surprised by his voice for censorship. After all he is the only one who has the truth. Right?

Happy Thanksgiving to all here in the US.

Dawn

I am concerned about Trine Day. Anyone who can blindly support Judyth is not living in the real world imo...

But they put out a lot of other very important books. And I am sure Kris simply believes Judyth. We used to. (Long ago.)

[David Josephs]

Thanks Dawn...

Has she ever been able to explain having the wrong copy (B copy) of a W-2 from 1963 which never existed as a form...

For those who have not seen the comparison....

The 1963 W-2 reflects the reordered tax & wage boxes from 1962. And all three have the amount earned above the person's name. this is what this form looked like all thru the 50's and 60's.

The other thing to notice is how only parts of the bleed-thru match exactly while others do not. The entire page was shifted up and over as can be seen by the bleed... yet from the following we can see many conflicts between the top copy and what lay beneath.

The top page is moved over to the left and slightly down. I created an overlay layer showing what we should see on that layer underneath based on the movement of the top and the matching writing/amounts.

Something very wrong with that image and that W-2.

[Pamela Brown]

Thanks Dawn...

Has she ever been able to explain having the wrong copy (B copy) of a W-2 from 1963 which never existed as a form...

For those who have not seen the comparison....

The 1963 W-2 reflects the reordered tax & wage boxes from 1962. And all three have the amount earned above the person's name. this is what this form looked like all thru the 50's and 60's.

The other thing to notice is how only parts of the bleed-thru match exactly while others do not. The entire page was shifted up and over as can be seen by the bleed... yet from the following we can see many conflicts between the top copy and what lay beneath.

The top page is moved over to the left and slightly down. I created an overlay layer showing what we should see on that layer underneath based on the movement of the top and the matching writing/amounts.

Something very wrong with that image and that W-2.

Very interesting, David. Is there any way there could have been more than one version of that form for that year? I know that's probably a silly question, but the kind of excuse Judyth would jump on. Also, what are all the black dots about? Interesting that the address on Judyth's form is FL, not NOLA, where Reilly Coffee was.

[David Josephs]

That W-2 appears to be opened or separated on the right so it makes sense to me that the writing wouldn't match. The dots may have been lined up there. If you move the paper over and down (for the dots to cover the other dots,which looks about like the distance that "INC's" are apart), it looks like it would line up. Also, I think Judyth was in FL during the time these are sent out. This would've been mailed to her in '64.

Not "Copy B" Kathy. Most citizens will happily show their Copy C of their W-2 - the one you keep while Copy B - goes to the IRS.

If there are other forms for those years then by all means - produce them.

Yet between there not being a matching form in any year and her having the wrong copy of the W-2 and finally.. where is the Reilly Coffee copy?

The other thing that always intrigued me was the bus ride they shared daily for months - guess they were cautious just not overly - no one on the bus or the driver would recognize the same two getting on blocks apart and sitting together and getting off together... every day?

If any of the physical evidence supported her story she would offer it, instead we get this W-2 and Anna Lewis as her bona fides.

What other do with that is up to them - I find it terribly assumptive to think we'd all just nod our heads and be amazed. But then that's why there are sheep, wolves and the dogs who protect the sheep.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

None of that is produced in this instance.

[Pamela Brown]

That W-2 appears to be opened or separated on the right so it makes sense to me that the writing wouldn't match. The dots may have been lined up there. If you move the paper over and down (for the dots to cover the other dots,which looks about like the distance that "INC's" are apart), it looks like it would line up. Also, I think Judyth was in FL during the time these are sent out. This would've been mailed to her in '64.

Not "Copy B" Kathy. Most citizens will happily show their Copy C of their W-2 - the one you keep while Copy B - goes to the IRS.

If there are other forms for those years then by all means - produce them.

Yet between there not being a matching form in any year and her having the wrong copy of the W-2 and finally.. where is the Reilly Coffee copy?

The other thing that always intrigued me was the bus ride they shared daily for months - guess they were cautious just not overly - no one on the bus or the driver would recognize the same two getting on blocks apart and sitting together and getting off together... every day?

If any of the physical evidence supported her story she would offer it, instead we get this W-2 and Anna Lewis as her bona fides.

What other do with that is up to them - I find it terribly assumptive to think we'd all just nod our heads and be amazed. But then that's why there are sheep, wolves and the dogs who protect the sheep.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

None of that is produced in this instance.

Could you possible post copy A and copy C of the 1961, 1962 and 1963 forms?

Thanks...