Thomas Graves Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 P.P.S. They also lied about making the trip to the rail yard OR Victoria Adams lied about coming down the stairs. Take your pick. Robert P., I can't imagine that Lovelady, a convicted purveyor of stolen military guns and former fugitive, would lie about anything. LOL --Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 P.P.S. They also lied about making the trip to the rail yard OR Victoria Adams lied about coming down the stairs. Take your pick. Robert P., I can't imagine that Lovelady, a convicted purveyor of stolen military guns and former fugitive, would lie about anything. LOL --Tommy That is possibly what made it easy to make him lie in his testimony. "You ever been to prison, son? Wellllll, we'd hate like hell for you to end up back there now, wouldn't we." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Mady Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 Robert, I see your point on ADAMS on the stairs and TRULY. I understand the conflict your attempting to resolve. Good luck. The WC testimonies are fraught with inconsistencies, they can't be resolved. Just the fact that BAKER asked TRULY where the stairs were and TRULY brought him directly to the elevator is odd, then in the haste to get to the roof, they both stand there and ring the elevator and wait to see if it comes down. A police officer I doubt would have taken the elevator over running the stairs, if there were a culprit at large, being stuck in a freight elevator would be the last location to place yourself, from the stairs you guard the stairs and have access to elevator shaft on each floor. The whole scenario stinks. If the WC had been a trial, the important inconsistencies would have been resolved, in reality the WC fostered inconsistencies, it makes the mystery impossible to untangle. Dismiss SHELLEY and LOVELADY walking to the rail yards -> not a chance. There is significantly more evidence as proof that this was the actions that were taken than what you are proposing. No we can't definitively prove it was SHELLEY and LOVELADY in the Couch film walking down the extension, we can't disprove it either and a massive amount of circumstantial evidence indicates that it is in deed SHELLEY and LOVELADY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Mady Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) Thomas, please review the Hughes film I posted, do an analysis of the potential time line for yourself instead of blindly believing in Groden 8-15 minutes claim. Then answer the question, how did LOVELADY get out on the steps if he was inside the TSBD with BARNETT and SMITH guarding the door and how did he get back inside past BARNETT and SMITH? Either you enter a dialog and discuss these issues in a civilized manner or you can continue to post criticisms of me to your self. Edited March 26, 2015 by Robert Mady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Thomas, please review the Hughes film I posted, do an analysis of the potential time line for yourself instead of blindly believing in Groden 8-15 minutes claim. Then answer the question, how did LOVELADY get out on the steps if he was inside the TSBD with BARNETT and SMITH guarding the door and how did he get back inside past BARNETT and SMITH? Why do you believe Lovelady? He was a convicted criminal -- purveyor of a stolen military weapon and former fugitive. --Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) Thomas, please review the Hughes film I posted, do an analysis of the potential time line for yourself instead of blindly believing in Groden 8-15 minutes claim. Then answer the question, how did LOVELADY get out on the steps if he was inside the TSBD with BARNETT and SMITH guarding the door and how did he get back inside past BARNETT and SMITH? Why do you believe Lovelady? He was a convicted criminal -- purveyor of a stolen military weapon and former fugitive. --Tommy Thomas, please review the Hughes film I posted, do an analysis of the potential time line for yourself instead of blindly believing in Groden 8-15 minutes claim. Then answer the question, how did LOVELADY get out on the steps if he was inside the TSBD with BARNETT and SMITH guarding the door and how did he get back inside past BARNETT and SMITH? "Maddening" Mady, Why do you believe Lovelady? He was a convicted criminal -- purveyor of a stolen military weapon and former fugitive. --Tommy "Maddening" Mady, It's funny how you never did answer my questions in a declarative manner. Guess you are simply incapable of doing that. Regardless -- What if Groden was wrong and the Martin and Hughes "Lovelady" clips were filmed, let's say, 18.75 or 23.50 or 46.25 minutes after the assassination. Would you be happy then? How long after the assassination must it be for you to be willing to accept the fact that that's Lovelady standing and smoking a cigarette in front of the TSBD in the Martin and Hughes clips? Oh, I see. The big problem is the long sleeved, mostly red "plaid" shirt that Lovelady's wearing in those clips. It's a big problem for you because it would mean that Doorman was Lovelady, not Oswald, in Altgens 6. But wait! Haven't you heard of Sean Murphy's Prayerman who has been shown to (most probably) be Oswald? It's too bad that Prayerman / Oswald was so far above and behind and to the left of Lovelady in Altgens 6 as to not be visible in that photograph. But he is visible in Couch / Darnell, which was shot from a "better" angle. And it's too bad that Lovelady is not visible on the steps in Couch / Darnell. Or is he? Maybe he's sitting down again, finishing his lunch... --Tommy Edited March 26, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) P.P.S. They also lied about making the trip to the rail yard OR Victoria Adams lied about coming down the stairs. Take your pick. Robert P., I can't imagine that Lovelady, a convicted purveyor of stolen military guns and former fugitive, would lie about anything. LOL --Tommy That is possibly what made it easy to make him lie in his testimony. "You ever been to prison, son? Wellllll, we'd hate like hell for you to end up back there now, wouldn't we." "But we gotta 400-pound boy we gotta keep inna cage by the name a 'Bubba' who's jus' a-dyin' ta meet ya." --Tommy PS for Robert P. -- I don't think that's Gloria Calvary running past "Shelley" and "Lovelady" in Darnell / Couch. Calvary was photographed wearing a light-colored dress and a dark-colored blouse or coat, but in Couch / Darnell the colors are reversed. credit: Gerda Dunkel credit: posted on jfkassassinationforum by Robin Unger Edited March 26, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 "Dismiss SHELLEY and LOVELADY walking to the rail yards -> not a chance. There is significantly more evidence as proof that this was the actions that were taken than what you are proposing. No we can't definitively prove it was SHELLEY and LOVELADY in the Couch film walking down the extension, we can't disprove it either and a massive amount of circumstantial evidence indicates that it is in deed SHELLEY and LOVELADY." Bob Would you mind sharing with us this "massive amount of circumstantial evidence" indicating Shelley and Lovelady are seen walking down the Elm St. extension in the Couch film? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 "Mr. BALL - After you heard these noises you said sounded like firecrackers this girl came up and said the President was shot? Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah.Mr. BALL - You were still standing there?Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm?Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider.Mr. BALL - Between the two Elm Streets?Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.Mr. BALL - The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct?Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out?MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there.Mr. BALL - Did you stay very long?Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, it wasn't very long.Mr. BALL - How long?Mr. SHELLEY - Maybe a minute or two.Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building?Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh,Mr. BALL - Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first railroad track?Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.Mr. BALL - That's about what distance?Mr. SHELLEY - Approximately 100 yards." Bob Mady We don't need circumstantial evidence, we have Shelley's own testimony to tell us it was not him and Lovelady in the Couch film. If I can translate his above testimony for you, they remained on the steps until Gloria Calvary returned from the pergola area with the news. I really don't think a lady in high heels was able to beat Baker to the steps. BUT, most importantly, Shelley tells us that after they spoke with Calvary, they ran out to the divider, and STAYED at the divider for a minute or two, and, better yet, it was from this stationary position they viewed Baker and Truly entering the TSBD. As the two men in the Couch film are walking down the Elm St. extension, and not standing out at the divider for "maybe a minute or two", Shelley disqualifies himself from being one of the men seen walking in the Couch film. It is interesting to note that Shelley told much the same story in the earlier part of his testimony, but left out the part about remaining on the divider for a minute or two. When one reads the story again, as quoted above, it is clear they were standing on the divider when Baker/Truly entered the TSBD, and not on their way to the rail yard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) "Mr. BALL - After you heard these noises you said sounded like firecrackers this girl came up and said the President was shot? Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah. Mr. BALL - You were still standing there? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider. Mr. BALL - Between the two Elm Streets? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out? MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there. Mr. BALL - Did you stay very long? Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, it wasn't very long. Mr. BALL - How long? Mr. SHELLEY - Maybe a minute or two. Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh, Mr. BALL - Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first railroad track? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - That's about what distance? Mr. SHELLEY - Approximately 100 yards." Bob Mady We don't need circumstantial evidence, we have Shelley's own testimony to tell us it was not him and Lovelady in the Couch film. If I can translate his above testimony for you, they remained on the steps until Gloria Calvary returned from the pergola area with the news. I really don't think a lady in high heels was able to beat Baker to the steps. BUT, most importantly, Shelley tells us that after they spoke with Calvary, they ran out to the divider, and STAYED at the divider for a minute or two, and, better yet, it was from this stationary position they viewed Baker and Truly entering the TSBD. As the two men in the Couch film are walking down the Elm St. extension, and not standing out at the divider for "maybe a minute or two", Shelley disqualifies himself from being one of the men seen walking in the Couch film. It is interesting to note that Shelley told much the same story in the earlier part of his testimony, but left out the part about remaining on the divider for a minute or two. When one reads the story again, as quoted above, it is clear they were standing on the divider when Baker/Truly entered the TSBD, and not on their way to the rail yard. FWIW, I think Shelley was lying when he said "Yeah" instead of "Yes" or "Yes, sir." I also think he was lying when he says "Yes, uh-huh" after being asked if he had seen Baker run into the TSBD while standing on the "divider" between Elm Street and the Elm Street Extension. He answers all of the other questions with a "Yes" or a "Yes, sir." That's my "take" on it. If Shelley and Lovelady remained on the TSBD steps until Gloria Calvary told them JFK had been shot, why then aren't they visible on the steps in any of the films / photographs after Altgens 6? Edit: Or are they? Here's part of Shelley's WC testimony: Mr. BALL - Then what happened? Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute. Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there? Mr. BALL - Yes. Mr. SHELLEY - That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street. Mr. BALL - It dead ends? Mr. SHELLEY - There's concrete between the two streets. Mr. BALL - Elm Street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn't it? Mr. SHELLEY - Well, that's also Elm that goes under the triple underpass. Mr. BALL - That is Elm that goes under the triple underpass? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, where they split. Mr. BALL - You went out there and then what did you do? Mr. SHELLEY - Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and I walked down that way. Mr. BALL - How did you get down that way; what course did you take? Mr. SHELLEY - We walked down the middle of the little street. Mr. BALL - The dead-end street? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island. Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building? Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit. Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Going to watch the rest of the parade were you? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - The Vice President hadn't gone by, had he, by your place? Mr. SHELLEY - I don't know. I didn't recognize him. I did recognize Mr. Kennedy and his suntan I had been hearing about. Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly? Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly. Mr. BALL - And Truly? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building? MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in. Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running? Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes. Mr. BALL - Were they running? Mr. SHELLEY - That, I couldn't swear to; there were so many people around. Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do? Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end. Mr. BALL - At the west end? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room. Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody? Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper. Mr. BALL - What was he doing? Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room. Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Who else did you see? Mr. SHELLEY - That's all we saw immediately. Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Vickie Adams? Mr. SHELLEY - I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her. Mr. BALL - You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back? Mr. SHELLEY - It was after we entered the building. Mr. BALL - You think you did see her after you entered the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that. --Tommy Edited September 3, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 "Mr. BALL - After you heard these noises you said sounded like firecrackers this girl came up and said the President was shot? Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah. Mr. BALL - You were still standing there? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider. Mr. BALL - Between the two Elm Streets? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out? MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there. Mr. BALL - Did you stay very long? Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, it wasn't very long. Mr. BALL - How long? Mr. SHELLEY - Maybe a minute or two. Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh, Mr. BALL - Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first railroad track? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - That's about what distance? Mr. SHELLEY - Approximately 100 yards." Bob Mady We don't need circumstantial evidence, we have Shelley's own testimony to tell us it was not him and Lovelady in the Couch film. If I can translate his above testimony for you, they remained on the steps until Gloria Calvary returned from the pergola area with the news. I really don't think a lady in high heels was able to beat Baker to the steps. BUT, most importantly, Shelley tells us that after they spoke with Calvary, they ran out to the divider, and STAYED at the divider for a minute or two, and, better yet, it was from this stationary position they viewed Baker and Truly entering the TSBD. As the two men in the Couch film are walking down the Elm St. extension, and not standing out at the divider for "maybe a minute or two", Shelley disqualifies himself from being one of the men seen walking in the Couch film. It is interesting to note that Shelley told much the same story in the earlier part of his testimony, but left out the part about remaining on the divider for a minute or two. When one reads the story again, as quoted above, it is clear they were standing on the divider when Baker/Truly entered the TSBD, and not on their way to the rail yard. FWIW, I think Shelley was lying when he said "Yeah" instead of "Yes" or "Yes, sir." I also think he was lying when he says "Yes, uh-huh" after being asked if he had seen Baker run into the TSBD while standing on the "divider" between Elm Street and the Elm Street Extension. He answers all of the other questions with a "Yes" or a "Yes, sir." That's my "take" on it. --Tommy Interesting observation, Thomas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) "Mr. BALL - After you heard these noises you said sounded like firecrackers this girl came up and said the President was shot? Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah. Mr. BALL - You were still standing there? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider. Mr. BALL - Between the two Elm Streets? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out? MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there. Mr. BALL - Did you stay very long? Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, it wasn't very long. Mr. BALL - How long? Mr. SHELLEY - Maybe a minute or two. Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh, Mr. BALL - Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first railroad track? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - That's about what distance? Mr. SHELLEY - Approximately 100 yards." Bob Mady We don't need circumstantial evidence, we have Shelley's own testimony to tell us it was not him and Lovelady in the Couch film. If I can translate his above testimony for you, they remained on the steps until Gloria Calvary returned from the pergola area with the news. I really don't think a lady in high heels was able to beat Baker to the steps. BUT, most importantly, Shelley tells us that after they spoke with Calvary, they ran out to the divider, and STAYED at the divider for a minute or two, and, better yet, it was from this stationary position they viewed Baker and Truly entering the TSBD. As the two men in the Couch film are walking down the Elm St. extension, and not standing out at the divider for "maybe a minute or two", Shelley disqualifies himself from being one of the men seen walking in the Couch film. It is interesting to note that Shelley told much the same story in the earlier part of his testimony, but left out the part about remaining on the divider for a minute or two. When one reads the story again, as quoted above, it is clear they were standing on the divider when Baker/Truly entered the TSBD, and not on their way to the rail yard. FWIW, I think Shelley was lying when he said "Yeah" instead of "Yes" or "Yes, sir." I also think he was lying when he says "Yes, uh-huh" after being asked if he had seen Baker run into the TSBD while standing on the "divider" between Elm Street and the Elm Street Extension. He answers all of the other questions with a "Yes" or a "Yes, sir." That's my "take" on it. --Tommy Interesting observation, Thomas. Thanks, Robert P. Now for a little Devil's Advocate argument: If Shelley and Lovelady remained on the TSBD steps until Gloria Calvary told them JFK had been shot, why then aren't they visible on the steps in any of the films / photographs after Altgens 6? Or are they? --Tommy Edited March 26, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Mady Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) Robert P. Here are images of LOVELADY, SHELLEY and Couch frame showing two men walking down extension, would you say that it might be a fair assessment to determine that the two men in the Couch frame according to stature and hair line and shape could in deed be LOVELADY and SHELLEY? Edited March 26, 2015 by Robert Mady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) Robert P. Here are images of LOVELADY, SHELLEY and Couch frame showing two men walking down extension, would you say that it might be a fair assessment to determine that the two men in the Couch frame according to stature and hair line and shape could in deed be LOVELADY and SHELLEY? If you watch a closeup of the Couch / Darnell film clip at issue, you'll notice that "Lovelady's" shirt has a bold "checked" or "plaid" pattern, not a vertically-striped one. credit: Gerda Dunkel Edited March 26, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Mady Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) Thomas, nice gif, have you examined this gif frame by frame? Have you noticed the patterns change? Have you noticed that darker areas seem to have more pattern, look at the woman in the dark sweater to the left of the screen, can you discern patterns, same as on SHELLY and LOVELADY, and the pattern changes with each frame, SHELLEY has similar patterns as LOVELADY on his clothing, what I believe you are seeing is an artifact of enlarging not a pattern on the clothing. Edited March 26, 2015 by Robert Mady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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