Deconstructing The Lies

[Robert Mady]

Thomas, lets just call it a day, I don't really want to banter with you nor do I appreciate you comments, my questions were meant to be straight forward, your unwillingness to address them indicates you believe the films to be real in a vacuum, without supporting foundation, you just believe the films are real, so be it. I won't argue against a belief, the discussion would prove to be a foolish waste of time.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Robert Mady

[Robert Prudhomme]

Bob

I'm very interested in the whereabouts of Lovelady following the assassination. I not only find it interesting he managed to make it outside for a smoke, considering the building may have been locked down, I also think his presence outside the TSBD, at this time, may seriously contradict his WC testimony.

Do you think you can actually nail down the time the front entrance of the TSBD was sealed, and provide witness testimony?

[Robert Mady]

Robert P., I have no doubt that LOVELADY and SHELLEY left the steps moments following the gunshots and are seen walking down the Elm Street extension in the Couch film as PO BAKER runs to the front door and PO BARNETT runs to the rail yards.

I also have no doubt SHELLEY and LOVELADY went as far as the end of the building and upon seeing PO BARNETT running in front of them to the rail yards with his gun drawn scared LOVELADY and SHELLEY that this was a serious situation, so they entered into the TSBD thru the garage. There they encountered ADAMS and STYLES leaving the building to go to the rail yards (STYLES and ADAMS most likely also ran into BARNETT who turned them away from the rail yards and back to the TSBD), I believe LOVELADY stayed on the first floor for 30 minutes then escorted police to the sixth floor. LOVELADY could not have exited the building after it was sealed, at least until after 3:00 when they allowed employees to leave. The scenario fits together absolutely corroborating the timing of the actions for PO BAKER, TRULY, PO BARNETT, SHELLEY, LOVELADY, STYLES and ADAMS. ADAMS and STYLES went out the north dock area around the building, encountered BARNETT at the rail yards and was turned back to the building, ADAMS and STYLES reentered the building thru the front door. So BARNETT was still in the rail yards, this could have been 5 -10 or more minutes following the gunshots. Interesting that BARNETT was taking the time to turn people back from entering the rail yards instead of searching for the gunmen...hummm....

The information provided was to show number 1, that BARNETT and SMITH shortly after the gunfire sealed the front door, number 2, employees that delayed returning to the building were prohibited from reentering, this could have been 5 or 15 or more minutes, there is no way to determine the exact timing of when BARNETT was finally stationed by the front door. number 3, that once BARNETT and SMITH took up position, no one got in or out without expressed permission from a superior, I find it doubtful that LOVELADY could have exited or reentered the building for any reason once BARNETT and SMITH were protecting the front door, this is the point the supporters of the Martin and Hughes creations need to realistically address, how did LOVELADY get to the steps and back into the TSBD whether it was 5 minutes or 50 minutes why would LOVELADY have been allowed egress and access.

Remember we see BARNETT run to the rail yards, why he returned to the front of the TSBD would be the question to have answered.

I do understand the CALVERY conflict in SHELLEY and LOVELADY testimony does not fit, I don't understand why this was interjected if it is true or imagined or if the timing of the conversation is off, or if it may have happened later inside the TSBD. I think you are overthinking an anomaly rather than piecing together significant portions of corroborated testimony supported by photographs and film.

Just a thought: The CALVERY conversation testimony from SHELLEY and LOVELADY if taken as truth, would mean that they delayed and went to the rail yards 3 or 4 minutes after the gunshots, which now changes the timing of encountering ADAMS and STYLES, in other words this creates doubt that ADAMS and STYLES were on the stairs as quickly as they claimed and clears the way for OSWALD to have run the stairs unhindered.

CALVERY could be a deception thrown in to cause confusion and create doubt and nothing more.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Robert Mady

[Robert Prudhomme]

In short, we have no way of establishing precisely when the front of the TSBD was sealed off.

Shelley and Lovelady corroborate each other's testimony in two ways. Both testified to remaining on the steps for a minimum of three minutes, following the shots. Both also testified to not leaving the steps before Gloria Calvary returned from the area behind the Stemmons Freeway sign with the news of the assassination.

If both men had only given an estimate of time, I could put it down to the excitement of the event. However, both testified to their leaving the steps being tied to a precise event, the return to the steps of Gloria Calvary. We know from photographs that Ms. Calvary witnessed the assassination from a position mere feet away from the Stemmons sign. We also know, from photographs, that she did not immediately return to the TSBD steps, but lingered, with several other women, in the area of the Stemmons sign for several minutes.

Now, we also know, from the Couch film, that Marion Baker had parked his motorcycle, 45 feet from the TSBD entrance, and run to the TSBD steps within seconds of the last shot.

As there is NO way Gloria Calvary could beat Baker to the steps, and as Shelley and Lovelady testified to remaining on the steps a minimum of three minutes, until Ms. Calvary's arrival, how can that possibly be Shelley and Lovelady seen walking down the Elm St. extension in the Couch film?

It may appear to be Lovelady in the Couch film, but his ID is about as well established as a number of other individuals on the TSBD steps.

Want to know what I think? I think Shelley and Lovelady never went anywhere, except right back inside the building. In Shelley's statement of 22/11/63, he states he ran across the street and spoke to Gloria Calvary. No mention is made of how long after the shots he did this but, as we know Ms. Calvary was delayed down by the pergola, it would have to be several minutes. Shelley stated he then went back into the TSBD and phoned his wife. Billy Lovelady's statement says he went straight back into the building after the assassination.

No trip to the rail yard for these men. Hard thing to forget, wouldn't you say?

Shelley is lying in his statement. He could not have spent enough time outside for Gloria Calvary to return from the pergola, as Victoria Adams testified to seeing him and Billy Lovelady in the NW corner of the 1st floor, just as she and Sandra Styles made it down from upstairs. In other words, Shelley came right back into the building with Lovelady. He had to, or the timing simply does NOT work. As Ms. Adams testified, she and her friend came down the stairs immediately after the shots.

Now, think real hard on this next one. Victoria Adams simply could not make it across the entire 4th floor and down four flights of stairs before Baker and Truly made it to the NW corner of the 1st floor, where the elevators and stairs were. Yet, Ms. Adams never saw a white helmeted motorcycle cop by the stairs as she emerged onto the 1st floor. Neither did Frazier or Molina, who would have been right in Baker's way on the steps. The only witnesses who saw Baker and Truly enter together were Shelley, Lovelady and Eddie Piper. Shelley and Lovelady are proven liars, so I do not believe their sighting. Piper testified that Truly might have been with an FBI agent, so I give no credence to his testimony. Also, he testified to being inside the TSBD at the time of the shooting, yet Molina's original statement places him on the steps, again calling Piper's testimony into question.

Other than that, who saw Baker enter the front of the TSBD? As far as I can tell, no one.

You want to de-construct lies? You haven't even started looking yet.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Mady]

can anyone affirm that this is the complete Hughes film, that it has not been spliced, that the scenes are still in order of filming?

[Robert Mady]

Robert, I am interested to know why you think LOVELADY and SHELLEY lied.

Absolutely agree there is no way to know exactly when the TSBD was sealed, it was not within 2-1/2 - 3 minutes as BARNETT claimed, this guy is full of inconsistencies, he also claimed to be in the rail yards and watched police search, but how did the police beat him to the rail yards, he may have been the first to arrive, did he stand there until other police arrived and started searching...this could have been many minutes who knows, BARNETTS testimony can't be trusted.

You seem to be putting all the weight on CALVERY statements.

The visual proof of BAKER and the timing to enter the TSBD, the fact that two people are walking down the Elm Street extension and are precisely at the locations LOVELADY and SHELLEY claimed to be when BAKER was seen by them and that PO BARNETT can be seen running in front of them, all of this evidence you are ignoring because of the intrigue of the CALVERY statements when logic dictates the CALVERY information can't be correct.

Robert, if two other people are walking down Elm Street extension at precisly the moment when LOVELADY and SHELLEY testified to be doing this would be a miraculous coincidence or lets just say impossible. It is undoubtedly LOVELADY and SHELLEY walking down the street as PO BAKER runs into the TSBD and PO BARNETT runs to the rail yards as seen in the Couch film.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Robert Mady

[Robert Mady]

Assuming this is the complete Hughes film, in its original format.

Please watch this film from beginning to end and tell me again that you still believe LOVELADY could have possibly been filmed 8-15 minutes following the assassination as Pundit Groden is said to have proclaimed according to Thomas.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Robert

Baker and Shelley testified to remaining on the steps for 3-4 minutes, and not leaving the steps until Gloria Calvary returned to the steps from down below at the pergola area. There are photographs placing her down near the pergola some time after the assassination.

Can you get that through your head? This is SHELLEY'S and LOVELADY'S testimony, NOT CALVARY'S. THEY are the ones who testified they did not leave the steps until Calvary came back.

Now, according to time trials conducted by Baker and the WC lawyers, it took Baker 20 seconds to run his motorcycle up to the TSBD and run up to the steps. Three minutes minus twenty seconds is two minutes and forty seconds. According to testimony, he would have been going up the back stairs with Truly before Shelley and Lovelady left the front entrance of the TSBD.

If you do not see a slight timing problem here, you are lost.

[Robert Mady]

Robert, honestly I understand what you are saying, I understand it is LOVELADY and SHELLEY proclaiming to wait on the steps for CALVERY to come back to the TSBD, I understand. I just don't believe this is true, when all the other evidence points to LOVELADY and SHELLEY leaving the steps immediately to go to the rail yards. As I suggested to you this could be an invention by the WC to change the timing of LOVELADY and SHELLEY encounter with ADAMS and STYLES, the location of LOVELADY or SHELLEY was not important to the WC, what was important was to discredit ADAMS, they needed ADAMS off the stairs when OSWALD ran down from the sixth floor, this could have been a mechanism to introduce conflict and doubt.

I do not believe SHELLEY and LOVELADY waited for a conversation with CALVERY to leave the steps or start walking towards the rail yard.

You proclaimed SHELLEY and LOVELADY lied in testimony, most simply, they lied about CALVERY!

I don't understand if they went back into the building after the conversation with CALVERY, why would they make up a complex story about going towards the rail yards?

Edited March 26, 2015 by Robert Mady

[Robert Prudhomme]

Ok, in that case, what happened? Were Lovelady and Shelley coerced into lying before the Warren Commission, or is their testimony severely altered?

P.S.

It has never been proven that Lovelady and Shelley are in the Couch film. They likely went back inside the building, just as it says in Lovelady's statement. In fact, they HAD to re-enter the TSBD almost immediately, in order to be at the NW corner of the 1st floor, in order to be seen by Victoria Adams coming down four flights of stairs, unless she is lying, too.

The only way for Baker to be telling the truth about making it to the 2nd floor landing in just over a minute from the time of the last shot, is for Adams and Styles to have come down the stairs SO fast, they were out the back door before Baker and Truly got to the elevator. HOWEVER, this once again requires Shelley and Lovelady to re-enter the front door of the TSBD IMMEDIATELY after the shots, as she testified to seeing both men by the elevators, just as she left the building by the loading dock door.

Any way you slice it, someone or several someones are lying through their teeth.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

P.P.S.

They also lied about making the trip to the rail yard OR Victoria Adams lied about coming down the stairs. Take your pick.

[Robert Mady]

Robert, I feel your pain.

Nothing is proven, nothing will ever be proven.

But what ever scenario we decide on must make the most logical sense.

STYLES is watching the motorcade, shots are fired, does she immediately run to the stairway or observe out the window to see what is happening then decide it is important to also get to the rail yards, she may have recalled it was immediate but she may have lingered longer than she thought, watching the limo disappear, to observe a hoard of people running toward the monument area, long enough to make it down the stairs while BAKER was in the lunch room attempting to murder OSWALD, by the time she made it downstairs, SHELLEY and LOVELADY who had left the steps immediately following the assassination walked down the extension and reentered the building in time to see ADAMS before she exited the building.

Either all these events happened or they didn't if they all did they fit together in a coherent manner. Not all evidence is real or real useful. Remember much of this testimony was taken months after the assassination, memories change and memories can be influenced for nefarious purposes.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Robert Mady

[Robert Prudhomme]

If you watch the Couch film, it is quite obvious the two figures presumed to be Shelley and Lovelady are not even walking together. In a still photograph, it appears they are together but, once in motion, you can see "Lovelady" catch up to and pass "Shelley" without even glancing at him.

Other than this belief, what other proof is there Shelley and Lovelady didn't go straight back into the TSBD by the front entrance, following the assassination?

And, regardless of whether or not you believe they did go to the rail yard, the encounter with Gloria Calvary is a fabrication both of them tell, that simply could not have happened.

In order for them to have been in position to look back and see Baker/Truly enter the TSBD, they simply could not have waited the 3 or 4 minutes it took her to come back to the front entrance, and by that time Baker was well on his way to the 5th floor.

If you cannot comprehend the timing of these events, and the glaring faults in much of the testimony, you will never comprehend the massive hoax perpetrated here.

[Robert Prudhomme]

And anyone who is naive enough to think that Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles were able to "slip by" Baker and Truly on the 2nd floor landing, while they were confronting Oswald, should read this excerpt from Roy Truly's WC testimony:

"Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.
Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.
Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?
Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.
Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?
Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. 2 or 3 feet, possibly.
Mr. BELIN. Could you put an "O" where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?
All right.
You have put an "O" on Exhibit 497.
What did you see or hear the officer say or do?
Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?
Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. All right."

So, Baker is just inside the second door, confronting Oswald, and Truly "opened the door back and leaned in this way". One quick question from Baker, a quick response from Truly, and they are gone up the stairs again. A VERY brief encounter.

Truly does not enter the lunch room and let the doors close behind him, he opens the first door and leans in, not going past this doorway. If two young ladies in high heels passed behind him, wouldn't he hear them? If he had the door open, would Styles and Adams not only see Truly in the doorway, but likely Oswald and Baker, too?

The supposed encounter with Oswald was so brief, what are the chances of it occurring at the exact moment Styles and Adams went by?

[Thomas Graves]

Thomas, lets just call it a day, I don't really want to banter with you nor do I appreciate you comments, my questions were meant to be straight forward, your unwillingness to address them indicates you believe the films to be real in a vacuum, without supporting foundation, you just believe the films are real, so be it. I won't argue against a belief, the discussion would prove to be a foolish waste of time.

No, Robert.

We're not "calling it a day."

I'm going to continue to criticize the illogical assumptions inherent in your ridiculous assertion that the Martin and Hughes "Lovelady" clips were either magically staged at a later date or somehow altered to make it appear that Lovelady, wearing his long sleeved, mostly-red "plaid" shirt, was standing in front of the TSBD a few minutes after the assassination.

Sorry dude. You can't run away on this forum.

I didn't think you could answer my earlier questions (months ago) in a declarative manner, and I was right.

Instead, you tried to avoid them by asking me weaselly, rhetorical, off-subject questions. When I ignored them, you accused me of refusing to answer your questions, and you continue to do so!

What a weaselly hypocrite!

No, I'm not "calling it a day" with you.

The sun never sets on this forum and charlatans are exposed.

It's obvious that you should throw in the towel regarding the Martin and Hughes "Lovelady" clips, but you're too embarrassed to admit your illogic (noun; look it up), and you've got way too much to lose by doing so..

--Tommy

Edited March 26, 2015 by Thomas Graves