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Deconstructing The Lies


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Robert, can we return to the question, do the two men in the Couch photograph resemble SHELLEY and LOVELADY?

Does the shape of the heads match? SHELLEY - long, LOVELADY rounded back of the head

Do the hairlines match? SHELLEY - bushy and upright, LOVELADY receding and same shape

Do the shoulders match? SHELLEY - straight, LOVELADY slumped down

SHELLEY I believe is taller than LOVELADY

Do we agree that the descriptions of SHELLEY and LOVELADY are a match for two men in Couch film.

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Robert, are you unwilling to continue this converstaion?

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Robert P., I have no doubt that LOVELADY and SHELLEY left the steps moments following the gunshots and are seen walking down the Elm Street extension in the Couch film as PO BAKER runs to the front door and PO BARNETT runs to the rail yards.

I also have no doubt SHELLEY and LOVELADY went as far as the end of the building and upon seeing PO BARNETT running in front of them to the rail yards with his gun drawn scared LOVELADY and SHELLEY that this was a serious situation, so they entered into the TSBD thru the garage. There they encountered ADAMS and STYLES leaving the building to go to the rail yards (STYLES and ADAMS most likely also ran into BARNETT who turned them away from the rail yards and back to the TSBD), I believe LOVELADY stayed on the first floor for 30 minutes then escorted police to the sixth floor. LOVELADY could not have exited the building after it was sealed, at least until after 3:00 when they allowed employees to leave. The scenario fits together absolutely corroborating the timing of the actions for PO BAKER, TRULY, PO BARNETT, SHELLEY, LOVELADY, STYLES and ADAMS. ADAMS and STYLES went out the north dock area around the building, encountered BARNETT at the rail yards and was turned back to the building, ADAMS and STYLES reentered the building thru the front door. So BARNETT was still in the rail yards, this could have been 5 -10 or more minutes following the gunshots. Interesting that BARNETT was taking the time to turn people back from entering the rail yards instead of searching for the gunmen...hummm....

The information provided was to show number 1, that BARNETT and SMITH shortly after the gunfire sealed the front door, number 2, employees that delayed returning to the building were prohibited from reentering, this could have been 5 or 15 or more minutes, there is no way to determine the exact timing of when BARNETT was finally stationed by the front door. number 3, that once BARNETT and SMITH took up position, no one got in or out without expressed permission from a superior, I find it doubtful that LOVELADY could have exited or reentered the building for any reason once BARNETT and SMITH were protecting the front door, this is the point the supporters of the Martin and Hughes creations need to realistically address, how did LOVELADY get to the steps and back into the TSBD whether it was 5 minutes or 50 minutes why would LOVELADY have been allowed egress and access.

Remember we see BARNETT run to the rail yards, why he returned to the front of the TSBD would be the question to have answered.

I do understand the CALVERY conflict in SHELLEY and LOVELADY testimony does not fit, I don't understand why this was interjected if it is true or imagined or if the timing of the conversation is off, or if it may have happened later inside the TSBD. I think you are overthinking an anomaly rather than piecing together significant portions of corroborated testimony supported by photographs and film.

Just a thought: The CALVERY conversation testimony from SHELLEY and LOVELADY if taken as truth, would mean that they delayed and went to the rail yards 3 or 4 minutes after the gunshots, which now changes the timing of encountering ADAMS and STYLES, in other words this creates doubt that ADAMS and STYLES were on the stairs as quickly as they claimed and clears the way for OSWALD to have run the stairs unhindered.

CALVERY could be a deception thrown in to cause confusion and create doubt and nothing more.

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

I'm bumping this great post by Robert "Maddening" Mady.

FWIW, we now know that Bill Shelley was "best man" at Gloria Calvery's wedding in July, 1963, and that her husband worked practically next door to the TSBD in the County Records Office. I do not believe that the two possible "Gloria Calverys" down on Elm Street (where Gloria said in her FBI statement that she had watched the motorcade with Karan Hicks, Carol Reed, and Karen Westbrook) was the "Running Woman" in Couch / Darnell -- wrong clothes, wrong complexion, not enough time. In her statement to the FBI, Calvery said nothing about walking or running back to the "island" or to the TSBD and telling Shelley. Lovelady, Molina, or anyone else for that matter, at either of those two places, about what she had seen down on Elm Street. Interestingly, she was not required to give testimony to the Warren Commission, so all we have is her FBI statement.

I think the "Calvery-Shelley / Calvery-Lovelady / Calvery-Molina stories were fabricated out of whole cloth (with "limited hangouts," half-truths, and confusing intentional inaccuracies in all of them) in order to impunge (spelling?) Vicki Adams' account of how she and Sandra Styles descended the wooden stairs from the 4th floor to the 1st floor about one minute after the assassination.

From another website:

The Girl in the stairs

Victoria Elizabeth Adams, a 22-year-old employee of textbook publisher Scott Foresman watched the JFK motorcade from the fourth floor of the Texas School Book Depository as it passed by.

After seeing the fatal head shot, Adams and co-worker Sandra Styles ran to the stairwell and raced down the stairs to the first floor, determined to get out the back of the building to see what they could find in the railroad yard behind the fence on the grassy knoll.

The key aspect of her testimony was that the stairway Adams took was the same stairway Lee Harvey Oswald would have had to have taken to get from the sixth floor to the lunchroom, where he was found by Baker and Truly.

Yet, Adams testified she saw and heard nobody else on the stairs at that time. She estimated the time between hearing the shots and leaving the window to head for the stairway was between 15 and 20 seconds. She estimated it took less than a minute to run down the stairs from the fourth floor to the first floor.

The problem was that Adams did not see Oswald passing her on the stairs; she testified she did not hear anyone else on the stairs when she was running down.

Investigative reporter Barry Ernest describes in his book “The Girl on the Stairs” his 35-year search to find and interview Victoria Adams.

When he finally found her in 2002, Adams repeated for him her story in person. She explained how various government officials, including the Dallas Police Department, had harassed her over her testimony.

She produced for Ernest a 1964 letter her attorney had written to L. Lee Rankin, the chief counsel for the Warren Commission, complaining that someone had made changes in her deposition, altering her meaning.

She explained to Ernest that she left Dallas after the assassination because she was seeking to disappear.

“Remember, though, I was a very young woman at the time (22 years old) and believed in my government,” she told Ernest. “Because of the strange circumstances and discounting of my statements, my multiple questioning by various government agencies and the Warren Commission’s conclusions, I lost my starry-eyed beliefs in the integrity of our government. And I was scared, too. I was a young lady alone with no family or friend support at the time.”

Reviewing with Ernest her testimony as published in the Warren Commission volumes, Adams insisted her testimony had been altered.

“The freight elevator had not moved, and I did not see anyone on the stairs,” she insisted to Ernest.

When Ernest asked her why the Warren Commission never called Sandra Styles to testify, Adams speculated, “Looking backwards I think they didn’t want to corroborate any evidence.”

Yet, the record is clear. There is no photograph showing Lee Harvey Oswald on the sixth floor during the JFK shooting, and there is no testimony from anyone who worked in the building to suggest that he was there either.

The Warren Commission dismissed Victoria Adams, saying she must have come down the stairs later than she estimated – enough later that Oswald had already passed by.

[...]

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/10/girl-on-the-stairs-refutes-p-c-jfk-narrative/#TYvvcJPjgAWicIXa.99

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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If you can see all of this so clearly, can you also see that Lovelady and Shelley never went to the rail yard, and that we are not seeing them walking down the Elm St. extension in the Darnell/Couch film?

Now, here is a real tough one for you, Thomas. As you have quoted from another site (the author makes one small error, as Victoria Adams does not actually see JFK impacted by the fatal head shot, unless her testimony was altered to conceal this), Victoria Adams would have been travelling down the stairs at the same time as Oswald. If Oswald was not on those stairs, by default, the second floor lunch room encounter between Baker and Oswald could not have occurred.

HOWEVER, Ms. Adams did not encounter anyone else on the stairs, either.

"Mr. BELIN - Now when you were running down the stairs on your trip down the stairs, did you hear anyone using the Stairs?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Did you hear anyone calling for an elevator?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see the foreman, Roy Truly? Did you see the superintendent of the warehouse, Roy S. Truly?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir; I did not.
Mr. BELIN - What about any motorcycle police officers?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir."

For the umpteenth time, Thomas, do you not see anything wrong with the whole "Baker rushing into the TSBD and up the stairs twenty seconds after the last shot" story?

No one on the TSBD steps saw him enter, Eddie Piper testified that Truly entered the first floor with an FBI agent, and Victoria Adams never met him on the stairs.

Was Baker invisible?

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If you can see all of this so clearly, can you also see that Lovelady and Shelley never went to the rail yard, and that we are not seeing them walking down the Elm St. extension in the Darnell/Couch film?

I like Maddening Mady's 'take' on this, Robert -- That we do see Shelley and Lovelady walking down Elm Street Extension ( I do, except Mady has mistaken Shelley for Lovelady and vice versa because he's hung up on Lovelady's shirt's apparent light color as it appears in C/D) towards the parking lot about 20 seconds after the final shot, but they didn't go all the way there. They were discouraged from doing so when they saw a policeman running around in that area with his damn pistol drawn, and decided to cut their journey short by "hanging a right," instead, and they entered the TSBD though a rear or side door, saw there on the first floor Eddie Piper, Vicki Adams, and maybe even Sandra Styles, and then proceeded to lie their you-know-whats off to the authorities as to whom they had encountered there, and more importantly, when they had encountered them. Ergo the phony "Calvery told us what she had seen and it must have been a good 3 or 4 minutes after the final shot because she was so dang far down on Elm Street when it all happened, and it took her a dang long time for her to run up to us there at the TSBD doncha-know."

Now, here is a real tough one for you, Thomas. As you have quoted from another site (the author makes one small error, as Victoria Adams does not actually see JFK impacted by the fatal head shot, unless her testimony was altered to conceal this), Victoria Adams would have been travelling down the stairs at the same time as Oswald. If Oswald was not on those stairs, by default, the second floor lunch room encounter between Baker and Oswald could not have occurred.

Not as tough as you think, Bobby, because I have no problem with it. I don't care where Oswald was (or wasn't) at the time of the assassination, as long as he wasn't at the sixth floor "sniper's window." And I don't believe that he was. In fact, I think Oswald was standing by Buell Wesley Frazier, Joe Molina, and Billy Lovelady right outside the front door, that he was captured on film, and has recently become known to the world as "Prayer Man." I get the feeling that just because I think that Shelley and Lovelady were "captured" in C/D while walking towards the parking lot, and just because I think C/D strongly suggests that Baker ran up the steps (where else could he have gone to?), that you take that to mean that I think Baker and Truly must have done exactly what they said they did, and that they encountered Oswald in the second floor lunch room about 90 seconds after the final shot. No, Bobby, now this here is a really tough one for you to get your mind around, but I don't believe that happened, unless, for some strange reason, Oswald / Prayer Man rushed up to the second floor right after JFK had been shot to buy his-self a Cokie-Coly, which I think is highly unlikely, powerful strong thirst though he may have had.

HOWEVER, Ms. Adams did not encounter anyone else on the stairs, either.

"Mr. BELIN - Now when you were running down the stairs on your trip down the stairs, did you hear anyone using the Stairs?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Did you hear anyone calling for an elevator?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Did you see the foreman, Roy Truly? Did you see the superintendent of the warehouse, Roy S. Truly?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BELIN - What about any motorcycle police officers?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir."

For the umpteenth time, Thomas, do you not see anything wrong with the whole "Baker rushing into the TSBD and up the stairs twenty seconds after the last shot" story?

Hmmm, well now that you mention it for the umpteenth time....

No one on the TSBD steps saw him enter, Eddie Piper testified that Truly entered the first floor with an FBI agent, and Victoria Adams never met him on the stairs.

Was Baker invisible?

I rather doubt it. He probably just sprinted like a mad man down to the corner to tell another policeman about the pigeons, and nobody noticed.

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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You are an enigma to me, Thomas. You openly doubt that Shelley and Lovelady told the truth to the Warren Commission about walking down to the rail yard, and admit that their first day statements about going directly back into the TSBD are closer to the truth.

How can you still believe they were captured in Darnell/Couch walking down the Elm St. extension?

Once more, if Victoria Adams did not see Truly and Baker on the stairs, was she lying or was Baker lying?

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If you can see all of this so clearly, can you also see that Lovelady and Shelley never went to the rail yard, and that we are not seeing them walking down the Elm St. extension in the Darnell/Couch film?

I like Maddening Mady's 'take' on this, Robert -- That we do see Shelley and Lovelady walking down Elm Street Extension ( I do, except Mady has mistaken Shelley for Lovelady and vice versa because he's hung up on Lovelady's shirt's apparent light color as it appears in C/D) towards the parking lot about 30 seconds after the final shot, but they didn't go all the way there. They were discouraged from doing so when they saw a policeman running around in that area with his damn pistol drawn, and decided to cut their journey short by "hanging a right," instead, and they entered the TSBD though a rear or side door, saw there on the first floor Eddie Piper, Vicki Adams, and maybe even Sandra Styles, and then proceeded to lie their you-know-whats off to the authorities as to whom they had encountered there, and more importantly, when they had encountered them. Ergo the phony "Calvery told us what she had seen and it must have been a good 3 or 4 minutes after the final shot because she was so dang far down on Elm Street when it all happened, and it took her a dang long time for her to run up to us there at the TSBD doncha-know."

Now, here is a real tough one for you, Thomas. As you have quoted from another site (the author makes one small error, as Victoria Adams does not actually see JFK impacted by the fatal head shot, unless her testimony was altered to conceal this), Victoria Adams would have been travelling down the stairs at the same time as Oswald. If Oswald was not on those stairs, by default, the second floor lunch room encounter between Baker and Oswald could not have occurred.

Not as tough as you think, Bobby, because I have no problem with it. I don't care where Oswald was (or wasn't) at the time of the assassination, as long as he wasn't at the sixth floor "sniper's window." And I don't believe that he was. In fact, I think Oswald was standing by Buell Wesley Frazier, Joe Molina, and Billy Lovelady right outside the front door, that he was captured on film, and has recently become known to the world as "Prayer Man." I get the feeling that just because I think that Shelley and Lovelady were "captured" in C/D while walking towards the parking lot, and just because I think C/D strongly suggests that Baker ran up the steps (where else could he have gone to?), that you take that to mean that I think Baker and Truly must have done exactly what they said they did, and that they encountered Oswald in the second floor lunch room about 90 seconds after the final shot. No, Bobby, now this here is a really tough one for you to get your mind around, but I don't believe that happened, unless, for some strange reason, Oswald / Prayer Man rushed up to the second floor right after JFK had been shot to buy his-self a Cokie-Coly, which I think is highly unlikely, powerful strong thirst though he may have had.

HOWEVER, Ms. Adams did not encounter anyone else on the stairs, either.

"Mr. BELIN - Now when you were running down the stairs on your trip down the stairs, did you hear anyone using the Stairs?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Did you hear anyone calling for an elevator?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Did you see the foreman, Roy Truly? Did you see the superintendent of the warehouse, Roy S. Truly?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BELIN - What about any motorcycle police officers?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir."

For the umpteenth time, Thomas, do you not see anything wrong with the whole "Baker rushing into the TSBD and up the stairs twenty seconds after the last shot" story?

Hmmm, well now that you mention it for the umpteenth time....

No one on the TSBD steps saw him enter, Eddie Piper testified that Truly entered the first floor with an FBI agent, and Victoria Adams never met him on the stairs.

Was Baker invisible?

I rather doubt it. He probably just sprinted like a mad man down to the corner to tell another policeman about the pigeons, and nobody noticed.

--Tommy :sun

edited and bumped

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You are an enigma to me, Thomas. You openly doubt that Shelley and Lovelady told the truth to the Warren Commission about walking down to the rail yard, and admit that their first day statements about going directly back into the TSBD are closer to the truth.

How can you still believe they were captured in Darnell/Couch walking down the Elm St. extension?

Once more, if Victoria Adams did not see Truly and Baker on the stairs, was she lying or was Baker lying?

Dear Robert,

I didn't mean to imply any of that. Perhaps you are inferring it?

(Perhaps you posted this while I was still writing / editing my last post.)

There's a big difference between saying that S & L walked to the parking lot and hung out there for a couple of minutes, versus saying that S & L started walking towards the parking lot (and were caught in C/D doing so), but cut their journey short, and entered the TSBD via a rear or side door, instead.

Regarding your question about Adams and Baker, I'm sure the former was telling the truth. But that doesn't mean that Baker couldn't have run up the steps and entered the building, as suggested by the C/D footage. It's anybody's guess what he (and Truly) did after that. Maybe they stepped inside the Domino Room, shut the door, and talked about the situation for a couple of minutes, just to make sure they got their stories straight. How do I know?

What do you think Baker and Truly did for the first five minutes or so after the final shot?

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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