Dan Rather's Description of Zapruder Film Corroborated by Witness

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hang on here. I never fired a DRT frangible bullet into a deer's head and, to date, have not had the privilege to shoot one of these rounds. They are fairly new onto the market, and I'm not even sure they are sold in Canada yet. The bullet I fired into the deer's head was a simple hollow point bullet with a solid lead core. While the DRT frangible bullet also has a hollow point noise, its core is made from compressed metal powder.

A soft tipped bullet will often stay in one piece, although the nose will look mushroomed, and often will exit the opposite side of the skull.

Think of bullets in this order:

Full metal jacket - no expansion, tends to exit unless special features (not found in Carcano bullet) makes it tumble in wound

Soft tipped - limited and often controlled expansion (guarantees kill but limits amount of damage to meat in game animals), may not always exit. Expansion will impart energy.

Hollow point - uncontrolled expansion, does not have to hit bone to make it open up in fact, opens better going through flesh. Often does not exit and imparts most of its energy to surrounding tissue

Hollow point frangible (DRT Ammo) - total disintegration into 3-4 inch diameter lethal cloud of metal powder. NEVER exits, imparts ALL of its energy to surrounding tissue.

There are many variations of FMJ, soft tipped and hollow point bullets that will perform in various different ways but, these are the basic bullets.

You ask about the head snap. The thing to consider is that the skull is a water tight vessel filled with fluid and semi-fluid matter. The first thing taught in any class concerning hydraulics is that while air can be compressed, fluid cannot. If a frangible bullet stops 2 inches into the skull as it disintegrates, ALL of its energy is transferred to the brain matter ahead of it. As this brain matter is semi-fluid, it cannot be compressed within the skull, and this energy is transferred through it to the skull itself.

None of these bullets seem to have a hard time penetrating skull bone, and I don't believe they lose a lot of energy doing so. Even the hollow points I used only made a tiny entrance wound in a skull.

I have looked closely at the head snap in the Z film, and I recognize it. It is very brief, and I don't believe it moves JFK more than an inch to the left. I believe the remaining "back and to the left" motion is simply JFK's inert form falling over, due to gravity.

[Gary Murr]

Brad Milch @ Post # 16:

"...I was quite startled to learn that the 'Oswald weapon' fired bullets manufactured in the 1950's under contract for the CIA."

This statement is not true.

Gary Murr

[Greg Burnham]

Brad Milch @ Post # 16:

"...I was quite startled to learn that the 'Oswald weapon' fired bullets manufactured in the 1950's under contract for the CIA."

This statement is not true.

Gary Murr

Agreed.

However, what we do know is that the CIA asked the FBI to trace the spent cartridges "found" on the 6th floor in an attempt to "place them in Oswald's hands." The FBI memo states that the spent casings were traced to Western Cartridge Company of Chicago. They originated from an order placed in 1954 by the US Marine Corps for a batch of 4,000,000 [4 million] rounds. The FBI concluded that the ammunition order was actually placed for the Central Intelligence Agency (through the USMC apparently for "concealment" purposes, according to the memo) since the USMC did not then, nor has it ever, had any weapon through which such ammunition (6.5mm Mannlicher) could be fired.

[edit: added a comma and a zero to the number 400,000 as the correct number is 4 million]

Edited January 6, 2015 by Greg Burnham

[Brad Milch]

That 'fast summation' comment I made refers to the discussion in this thread:

http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/news/the-origins-of-mannlicher-carcano-bullets/

The last time I checked, comments are still growing. The topic is still under discussion. Some are interpreting it much differently than others & there is some confusion to boot. What Mr. Burnham publishes online is 'takeable to the bank' IMHO.

I ran across it in following Mr. Prudhomme's online research efforts. There's something to be learned from him wherever he posts IMHO. I was using it to demonstrate that educational information follows Mr. Prudhomme's research efforts & comments. In this case, there's info to be learned about rifle scopes, frangible, exploding & other types of carcano bullets from comments Mr. Prudhomme contributed to the discussion. He's got some info on WWII tossed in the mix as well.

I did not intend my comment to appear to insinuate Mr. Prudhomme had claimed CIA contract bullets were fired by the 'Oswald weapon'. He did not. That claim was made by the website referenced in the discussion intro section.

It's good to get to the bottom of it here at EF. Sorry if I caused you unnecessary 'headaches', Mr. Prudhomme.

BM

Edited January 6, 2015 by Brad Milch

[Gary Murr]

Hello Brad:

I thank you for the link to jfkfacts.org regarding the ongoing discussion at that site regarding the ammunition alleged to have been used in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963 - and don't worry, I am sure that Bob Prudhomme can handle any "heat" thrown his way! As Bob and others who have known me for quite some time can attest, I am not now nor have never pretended to be a ballistics "expert," whatever that terminology entails. However, I can assure you that I am an "expert" - there is that word again - on the true history of the 6.5mm Mannlicher Carcano ammunition physically manufactured in 1954 - and only in 1954 - by the Western Cartridge Company of East Alton, Illinois. And I mean no disrespect to Greg Burnham, an articulate researcher, when I state that most if not all of what he indicates in this thread, post # 20, is inaccurate, with the only accurate statement being that it is true that the U. S. Marine Corps did not possess in 1954, nor at any time prior to that year or thereafter, a weapon or weapons that could fire this specific and rather unique family of 6.5mm ammunition.

Gary Murr

[Ken Rheberg]

Somewhere, amongst my JFK threads that I copied off of the internet, is a thread that was begun on Lancer years ago. I think Ken Rheberg was the author. . . He says Rather was at the Trade Mart, not DP)

I asked Ken if he would comment on this thread. If he doesn't, I'll continue to look for it.

I'm just throwing it in the mix.

Kathy

(I edited because I posted the wrong information--sorry!)

Kathy,

Dan Rather wasn't at the Trade Mart when the shots were fired.

He also wasn't standing right next to the west side of the triple underpass, the story he has told many times over the years. The photographic record disproves that. So where was he?

According to a close CBS colleague of his, Rather was actually at KRLD, on the phone with him when the assassination took place. The colleague, a fellow reporter, had called Rather from the Ramada Inn at Love Field during the lunch hour, wanting to check in with him as was this reporter's habit.

The two spoke for several moments after which Rather suddenly interrupted the conversation, telling the reporter to hold the line. "Don't go away," Rather said.

Within a minute or two, Rather returned to the phone and said that the President had been shot. He told the reporter to head for Parkland Hospital "as fast as you can."

Rather, however, would then leave KRLD, winding up at the Trade Mart within an hour or so after the assassination, something else he has never divulged in numerous interviews or in his memoirs.

Ken

[Brad Milch]

Hello, Gary & Ken:

Gary & others might be interested in this online essay about the 'Oswald weapon' here:

http://harveyandlee.net/Guns/Guns.html

I am sure he & others will be curious about the 'other' carcano with the same serial number as the 'Oswald weapon' sold to an individual the FBI knew about in 1962 & never publicly disclosed. Also, how Lee Oswald allegedly acquired a weapon in the mail with a money order that had not been cashed & endorsed by the banking system for money orders at the time.

Hobbyists, like myself, should find it as enlightening as the research efforts of the ballistics, ammo & small arms weapons experts

Ken, I saw a video posted on a video site similar to YouTube in which Rather is standing on the West side of the TUP explaining why he was there & what he saw after the ambush here:

(advance to the 24:15 location on the video for Mr. Rather's Dealey Plaza remembrances)

According to the stats, the video is entitled 'My Days In Dallas - A Remembrance With Dan Rather' & aired on AXS-TV November 18, 2013 (YouTube has the promo for this program posted).

Dan Rather's recollections in this video & elsewhere will be obviously confusing to many people in light of the info you have graciously provided.

BM

Edited January 6, 2015 by Brad Milch

[Gary Murr]

Hello Brad:

I thank you for your response and am glad to see your continued interest in the Ed Forum. One of the positive offshoots of those who have chosen to keep this forum alive - and we all owe a great debt of thanks to James, Kathy, Pat, et al for sticking with this endeavor - is to see the arrival of "hobbyists" such as yourself and many others who have chosen to help keep the subject matter of November 22, 1963 alive - not only that but to contribute in whatever way to a further understanding of what is involved in educating oneself on this same topic. It is not my intent to hijack this thread from its original theme - that of the extremely slippery Dan Rather and his "history" with the Zapruder film - and so the comments I offer hereafter regarding 6.5mm ammunition manufactured by the WCC are included merely as information on what I hope will be available to all in 2015.

I have spent the last eight years researching and accumulating all manners of documentation on basically one item - this same 6.5mm ammunition and in particular its true history from "birth" to the discovery of components of this same family of four million plus on the sixth floor of the TSBD on that Friday afternoon in November of 1963. To that end I have collected in excess of 200,000 pages of information on this subject matter - some of it directly related, some of it peripheral but absolutely necessary to the chronological history of this same ammunition. This same long and winding road has led me to numerous archival holdings many of which I have personally visited, five here in my native Canada [Quebec City, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto and Winnipeg], four different branches of NARA in the United States, including New York, Washington, Philadelphia, and St. Louis. In addition I have corresponded and acquired documents from archives in England, France, Germany, and Italy. I have also corresponded with individuals who worked for and at the East Alton plant of the Western Cartridge Company, individuals who were at this location at the time this ammunition was manufactured and though many are of advancing age, that does not deter from either their first hand accounts and in two instances absolutely vital collections of primary resource materials that they have kept all of these years, documents which I now possess and have used extensively in my forthcoming book on this subject matter. To be sure there are still missing pieces to this puzzle, but it is my opinion that what I have discovered is of interest and will dissolve many of the myths that have circulated regarding this ammunition since the discovery of the memorandum of speculation generated by FBI Lab night shift supervisor, Jay Cochran, on December 2, 1963. Not surprisingly two of the most important players in this entire affair have been the least cooperative with me - the Olin Corporation, who still controls what is left of the Western Cartridge Company, and the surviving members of the Sucher family who continue to run Century Arms International. If one does not know the historical background of both of these entities one cannot fully understand the history of the 6.5mm WCC ammunition. On the other side of the coin I have been pleasantly surprised with the cooperation I have received from numerous branches of the American military, in particular current archivists and historians associated with and working in the Ordnance Department and the Joint Munitions Command. But I fear I ramble on. To a large extent I agree with fellow researcher, Larry Hancock, when he indicates that at times forums are an "insufficient" vehicle of explanation, without having the time and space to lay out background information. And like Larry I have spent a great deal of time and hours of study in an effort to piece this puzzle all together.

In closing I thank you for the link to the work of John Armstrong, an article I am familiar with. Suffice to say I have a great deal to add to this area of John's work, in particular what I have discovered about the FBI and their contact with Louis Feldsott, a minor but important "player" if you will in the history of WCC 6.5mm ammunition - and I also am very familiar with the "other" carcano, bearing serial number 2766 - after all it and this ammunition made their way back onto the North American continent as a result of efforts undertaken by the historical precursor of Century Arms International - the International Firearms Company of Montreal.

FWIW

Gary Murr

[Greg Burnham]

[...] However, I can assure you that I am an "expert" - there is that word again - on the true history of the 6.5mm Mannlicher Carcano ammunition physically manufactured in 1954 - and only in 1954 - by the Western Cartridge Company of East Alton, Illinois. And I mean no disrespect to Greg Burnham, an articulate researcher, when I state that most if not all of what he indicates in this thread, post # 20, is inaccurate, with the only accurate statement being that it is true that the U. S. Marine Corps did not possess in 1954, nor at any time prior to that year or thereafter, a weapon or weapons that could fire this specific and rather unique family of 6.5mm ammunition.

Gary Murr

I was unaware that Gary Murr had evidence that impeaches this document. Perhaps he will cite his source(s) as I have done here.

[edit: I corrected my original post # 20 to add a ZERO to the number 400,000 -- I accidentally left it out. It should have read 4 Million instead of 400 Thousand. A minor error that was irrelevant to the post]

Edited January 6, 2015 by Greg Burnham

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hello Gary

It is good to see you posting again. I had not seen anything from you in a while and it is good to see you are still in fine form.

Your work on the origins of the WCC 6.5mm Carcano cartridges is so thorough and extensive, it has inspired me to take a closer look at my beliefs, and to study the subject much more thoroughly.

What has always bothered me about the manufacture date of 1954, and the connection with the CIA, is just what part of the planet could possibly employ 4 million rounds of an obsolete cartridge at that particular point in history. My research eventually led me to the Italian occupation of the tiny country of Albania during the Second World War. It seems that, prior to Italy signing an armistice with the Allies in 1943 and removing themselves from the war, Italy had lost several battles to Albanian partisans with the subsequent seizure of many Carcano rifles. Following the signing of the armistice, Italian troops were disarmed by co-occupying German forces, often violently. One account states that the commanding general and 150 officers of one Italian division were executed by firing squad. As was the case with Italian troops being repatriated to Italy from Greece following the armistice, Germany was deeply afraid these troops would return to Italy as anti-Nazi partisans, which is precisely what happened.

It is unclear precisely what happened to the Carcano rifles seized by the Germans. It is known that some returned to Germany and were used there, but it must be assumed that many stayed in Albania, and were seized by partisans following the expulsion of German occupiers.

The next chapter, and I will only touch on it briefly, is the failed overthrow of the communist Albanian government in 1954, led by Western forces including the USA. The plan was betrayed to the Russians, and ultimately the Albanians, by the famous British double agent Kim Philby. The reading of the account of this failed overthrow finally explains, to me anyways, why 4 million rounds of this obsolete ammo would be made so secretively in 1954.

That being said, there still remains the conundrum of the two letters, from executives in the Olin Corp., stating that their production of this ammunition was all pre-1944.

From Sylvia Meagher's book "Accessories After the Fact":

"On March 23, 1964, Mr. RW Botts, District Manager, Winchester-Western Division, Olin Mathieson Chemical Corp., Braniff Building, advised that the Western Cartridge Co., a division of Olin Industries, East Alton, Illinois, manufactured a quantity of 6.5 M/M Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition for the Italian government during World War II. At the end of the war the Italian Carcano rifle, and no telling how much of this type ammunition, was sold to United States gunbrokers and dealers and subsequently was distributed by direct sales to wholesalers, retailers and direct purchasers."

From Mark Lane's "Rush to Judgement", an excerpt from a letter, also from the Olin Corp, to Lane associate Stewart Galanor:

"Any previous production on this cartridge was made against government contracts, which were completed in 1944."

Looking at the obvious contradiction here, one can only draw three reasonable conclusions.

1. Sylvia Meagher and Mark Lane have both told an outrageous lie.

2. The FBI memo from 1963 regarding the cartridges in 1954 is a deception by the FBI, and also a lie.

3. Cartridges were made pre-1944 AND in 1954, and the knowledge of the 1954 production was kept to a very few people in the Olin Corp.

No. 3 seems to be the most likely of the three, and opens up other possibilities. As far as anyone knows, 6.5 WCC cartridges never made it into the hands of Italian partisans in Italy, if they were ever manufactured, and likely were kept in storage in the USA.

Could it be possible these pre-1944 cartridges were taken out of storage and dressed up as "new" cartridges in 1954?

[Larry Hancock]

The only thought I can contribute here is that Sam Cummins was getting very involved in procurement for the Agency about this time, first with weapons and ammo for PBFORTUNE and after PBSUCCESS he did some large scale sales to reequip the Guatemalan army with a new set of weapons. Don't know that any of that would make sense but along with what was going on in Albania/Greece that would be another Agency area of activity that involved weapons traffic.

Also, if Olin was doing some covert sales for the US government, certainly I would expect some broad cover statements from them that would obfuscate the movement of certain ammo...but I'm guessing Gary knows all about that possibility.

[Gary Murr]

Larry, Robert, Monk, et. al.

As it turns out, this subject matter was/is complex beyond any original concept I had when I decided to follow the old Penn Jones Jr. edict and "study the hell" out of what was known and not known about this particular ammunition. As I indicated previously, this search has gone on for over eight years and while not completely "solved," I have uncovered a wealth of information that is new.

Starting with Larry's input at post # 28, this thread; as you know, Larry, based at least in part upon writings I sent you that you were gracious enough to incorporate/mention into your great book, Shadow Warfare, Sam Cummings and Interarmco/Interarms were on my list of multiple potential "suspects" when it came to the end users of the 6.5mm WCC ammunition. However, and I must apologize for I cannot now remember precisely what materials I sent you, after spending considerable time studying some 14,000+ pages of documentation that related to PBFORTUNE and PBSUCCESS, as well as being fortunate enough to come across a former Interarms office employee who took it upon himself to rescue the bulk of the Cummings records from destruction after Sam's death, an individual who unashamedly identifies himself as the only true "archivist" of the records of Interarmco, I now know that Cummings/Interarmco/Interarms never possessed any 6.5mm WCC ammunition - not one single round. Again based upon my study of the records it is apparent that while Cummings may have coveted this particular ammunition he was wise enough to realize that the direct acquisition of these same rounds of ammunition by him and his company would have opened the doorway of potential federal prosecution and thus avoided becoming involved. He did, as I point out in my forthcoming work, attempt to back door the successful "owners" of this reacquisition of 6.5mm WCC ammo - the International Firearms Company of Montreal - through the planting of information with both the Office of Munitions Control and the Secret Service, but was unsuccessful in what he was really attempting to attain - the elimination of a major North American competitor. But that is a lengthy story unto itself.

Robert - re your post # 27. I am, of course, very familiar with the comments of Mr. Botts as well as the letter from H. J Gebelein to Lane associate, Stewart Galanor. Therefore in answer to the three propositions you put forth I can and will state the following:

1.] Neither Lane nor Meagher "lied." Rather, they were both lied to by representatives of the Olin corporation. Statements issued by both of the sources quoted by Lane and Meagher are unquestionably false and the ammunition in question was not "made against Government contracts completed in 1944."

2.] The infamous December 2, 1963 memorandum "from" Jevons "to" FBI lab boss, Ivan Conrad - a document that was actually constructed as I have repeatedly indicated by SA Jay Cochran - can best be described as "deceptive." Does it contain outright lies? Yes - for example, the "two page copy of the records of Western..." are no such thing. In addition, these same "records" also do not indicate any involvement with the U. S. Marine Corps, let alone any element of the CIA. As with most artfully constructed FBI memorandum, one has to examine it very carefully. In doing so you will note that it is Cochran, the author of the memo, who indicates that the concept of some form of mutual deception on the part of the Marines and the CIA "for concealment purposes" is speculation - and that is all it is - speculation. Who was the original author of this speculative rumor is something that continues to elude me. There is absolutely no doubt that members of the FBI lab involved in this entire affair, and in particular just what this "unique" ammunition was or represented, had to have discussed this issue among themselves. I also know to an absolute certainty that other members of this same FBI lab knew more about this ammunition than was ever revealed to the WC. If this same information, in turn, was passed along to Frazier, Cochran, etc or was given the "deep six" as suggested by the individual who passed this information along to lab hierarchy, is something that I do not know.

3.] In essence I have answered this option in part 1.] herein.

I do believe you are on the right "track" in your thought process here, Robert. Indeed, the way I approached the formidable question of who would want this ammunition in 1954 was to make a list of potential end-users, including as I have indicated Sam Cummings and Interarmco [for monetary gain] and then accumulate all I could on each potential suspect. Albania was/is on my list, as are numerous other countries and entities, including the American military and the CIA. Unfortunately you will have to wait for my answer to this endeavor. I will, however, reveal the following. Though the ammunition in question was eventually manufactured and shipped in 1954, under contract DA-23-196-ORD-27, the original contract had called for the completion of the order no later than December 31, 1952. As it was phrased on the "Continuation Sheet" of the invitation to bid on the contract, a document that bears order number ORD-23-196-52-9, "Early delivery will be a factor in making the award if all other conditions of the bid, expect price, are equal." As it turns out, Western were the successful bidder on this contract and were notified of their success by way of a "Copy of Notice of Award," dated June 27, 1952, at which time the "official" contract number DA-23-196-ORD-27 was affixed to the successful Western bid. The contract was to eventually undergo five "Contract Modifications" before the eventual production of the four million rounds of ammunition. Just how and why it took Western two years to complete the task is a large part of the story I am currently attempting to finish.

FWIW

Gary Murr

[Robert Prudhomme]

Thank you for that, Gary. You've provided a perspective I had not considered before; the possibility that Meagher and Galanor were purposely misled by Olin.

[Gary Murr]

You are welcome, Robert - as well as exactly right.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Just out of curiosity, Gary, do you think Olin was acting out of concern for customer confidentiality? What I mean by this, could the CIA have asked them to give out the pre-1944 story, if anyone should come around asking questions?

This seems a bit of a stretch, but then one has to consider how much the people Meagher and Galanor spoke to were "in the know", and if, by 1963, the 1954 contract had been whitewashed into something from WW II.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme