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The Most Important Error the FBI told the Warren Commission about the Rifle


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beautiful - i meant of the backyard photos, tho - that's where it's hard for me to see the rifle slings (and the front of the trigger guard someone pointed out was different, slightly)...

correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the entire proposed purpose of these backyard photos to show LHO's propensity for Communism (even though the two mags in his hands were of polarized schools of Communism...) AND to attach the MC that would later be found on 6 to him...?

which means that in order for the Lone Gunman theory to be true, that rifle MUST BE the one found on 6. right?

there's no way around that, right?

if that rifle in the backyard photo is NOT C2766, then the entire LN theory is a wash.

right?

Glenn, there is no way the BY photos are genuine. I've seen high resolution copies of those (but I don't keep files on those things) where you can see the fence boards and the limbs and leaves of the plants by his legs, through his legs. In other words someone layed the person onto the background photo without completely blanking out what they were laying it over. It's also clear that the head has been added at the chin level. No one is claiming that the conspirators got it all correct. They obviously botched the assignment on the BY photos, why else would copies of them be in the police station before they were 'found' at Ruth Paines's the next day? As to the 'authenticating' of the photo's, if you have enough money or power you can get anything 'authenticated'. The attempts to get the 'rifle' right has been largely covered by the evidence tampering of the FBI.

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beautiful - i meant of the backyard photos, tho - that's where it's hard for me to see the rifle slings (and the front of the trigger guard someone pointed out was different, slightly)...

correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the entire proposed purpose of these backyard photos to show LHO's propensity for Communism (even though the two mags in his hands were of polarized schools of Communism...) AND to attach the MC that would later be found on 6 to him...?

which means that in order for the Lone Gunman theory to be true, that rifle MUST BE the one found on 6. right?

there's no way around that, right?

if that rifle in the backyard photo is NOT C2766, then the entire LN theory is a wash.

right?

It would be foolish of them not to plant the same rifle on the 6th floor as was used in the back yard photos.

No one has accused them of being brilliant. In some photos, the slings do appear to be different. It may only be the perspective. But it's basically a certainty that LHO never saw this rifle.

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beautiful - i meant of the backyard photos, tho - that's where it's hard for me to see the rifle slings (and the front of the trigger guard someone pointed out was different, slightly)...

correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the entire proposed purpose of these backyard photos to show LHO's propensity for Communism (even though the two mags in his hands were of polarized schools of Communism...) AND to attach the MC that would later be found on 6 to him...?

which means that in order for the Lone Gunman theory to be true, that rifle MUST BE the one found on 6. right?

there's no way around that, right?

if that rifle in the backyard photo is NOT C2766, then the entire LN theory is a wash.

right?

Glenn, there is no way the BY photos are genuine. I've seen high resolution copies of those (but I don't keep files on those things) where you can see the fence boards and the limbs and leaves of the plants by his legs, through his legs. In other words someone layed the person onto the background photo without completely blanking out what they were laying it over. It's also clear that the head has been added at the chin level. No one is claiming that the conspirators got it all correct. They obviously botched the assignment on the BY photos, why else would copies of them be in the police station before they were 'found' at Ruth Paines's the next day? As to the 'authenticating' of the photo's, if you have enough money or power you can get anything 'authenticated'. The attempts to get the 'rifle' right has been largely covered by the evidence tampering of the FBI.

i do not dispute that the photos are a load of crap - i just like to see things for myself. i will never be guilty (like someone i know in here) of saying something like, "everybody knows such and such because i read it on Jean what's her name's website."

i was mainly just asking about the differences between the mounts on the different photos of the rifles, but i'm getting the feeling that my related observations and questions are too amateurish for most of this forum's participants.

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beautiful - i meant of the backyard photos, tho - that's where it's hard for me to see the rifle slings (and the front of the trigger guard someone pointed out was different, slightly)...

correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the entire proposed purpose of these backyard photos to show LHO's propensity for Communism (even though the two mags in his hands were of polarized schools of Communism...) AND to attach the MC that would later be found on 6 to him...?

which means that in order for the Lone Gunman theory to be true, that rifle MUST BE the one found on 6. right?

there's no way around that, right?

if that rifle in the backyard photo is NOT C2766, then the entire LN theory is a wash.

right?

Glenn, there is no way the BY photos are genuine. I've seen high resolution copies of those (but I don't keep files on those things) where you can see the fence boards and the limbs and leaves of the plants by his legs, through his legs. In other words someone layed the person onto the background photo without completely blanking out what they were laying it over. It's also clear that the head has been added at the chin level. No one is claiming that the conspirators got it all correct. They obviously botched the assignment on the BY photos, why else would copies of them be in the police station before they were 'found' at Ruth Paines's the next day? As to the 'authenticating' of the photo's, if you have enough money or power you can get anything 'authenticated'. The attempts to get the 'rifle' right has been largely covered by the evidence tampering of the FBI.

i do not dispute that the photos are a load of crap - i just like to see things for myself. i will never be guilty (like someone i know in here) of saying something like, "everybody knows such and such because i read it on Jean what's her name's website."

i was mainly just asking about the differences between the mounts on the different photos of the rifles, but i'm getting the feeling that my related observations and questions are too amateurish for most of this forum's participants.

that my related observations and questions are too amateurish for most of this forum's participants. Maybe, but not to me. I've been around a long time and ask some of the same type questions. The people that I can't figure at all is someone such as DVP. He is apparently obsessed by it and considers himself an 'expert'. How anyone can be that invested after that many years and still seemingly 'does not have a clue', is beyond me. For example, if he's lurking, and he always is, he'll come on here and swear, after reading all that info, that there is no question that Lee Harvey Oswald bought a rifle from Klein's. I don't consider myself an 'expert' and don't want to be, but I know when someone is blowing smoke. Is it likely that Badgeman was real? Sure. Can anyone 'prove' it? not likely. Note: Expert. definition, someone that is more than 5 miles from home with a briefcase.

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beautiful - i meant of the backyard photos, tho - that's where it's hard for me to see the rifle slings (and the front of the trigger guard someone pointed out was different, slightly)...

correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the entire proposed purpose of these backyard photos to show LHO's propensity for Communism (even though the two mags in his hands were of polarized schools of Communism...) AND to attach the MC that would later be found on 6 to him...?

which means that in order for the Lone Gunman theory to be true, that rifle MUST BE the one found on 6. right?

there's no way around that, right?

if that rifle in the backyard photo is NOT C2766, then the entire LN theory is a wash. right?

ce133-c.jpg

I have another question: On April 10, Oswald left Marina detailed instructions of what to do if he was captured by the police. Was it a fake too?

Edited by Vitali Zhuk
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thanks, Vitali for the photos.

I think those instructions were regarding the Walker shooting, no...?

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"Posted 10 July 2015 - 11:26 PM

Gary Murr, on 30 Jun 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:snapback.png

One should also be aware in reading this bumped thread that the WCC did not make 6.5mm Carcano ammunition that was "loaded with...bullets that were .264" in diameter." As I believe I indicated elsewhere in a thread on this forum, the 6.5mm Carcano ammunition manufactured by the WCC, and in particular the bullet component, was constructed utilizing specifications from Italian ballistic drawings/schematics supplied to Western by the U. S. Army Ordnance Department, diagrams acquired by the army as part of the massive quantities of "paperwork" confiscated by Allied forces during their liberation of Europe in 1944, 1945. I possess 60 rounds of this ammunition, from three different lot numbers, and the average bullet diameter size is just slightly over .2677".

Following the assassination, SA Robert A. Frazier of the FBI had in his possession CE399, a 6.5mm Carcano bullet made by the Western Cartridge Co., plus the unfired 6.5mm Carcano cartridge found in C2766, also made by the Western Cartridge Co. On top of this, the FBI also purchased several boxes of WCC 6.5mm Carcano cartridges.

As part of his testimony to the WC, Frazier stated the dimensions of these WCC 6.5mm Carcano bullets that he had measured in his laboratory.

What diameter do you think he found the WCC bullets to be, and do you believe his measuring was accurate?"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some very interesting discussions but, I have yet to receive a reply to my question, although I am sure this post has been read many times.

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thanks, Vitali for the photos.

I think those instructions were regarding the Walker shooting, no...?

Yes.

I think it's the same MC model on the BY photos and on the 6 floor.

image-spysguideoswaldassassincostume.jpg

P.S.

3747.jpg

Edited by Vitali Zhuk
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thanks, Vitali for the photos.

I think those instructions were regarding the Walker shooting, no...?

Yes.

I think it's the same MC model on the BY photos and on the 6 floor.

image-spysguideoswaldassassincostume.jpg

P.S.

3747.jpg

The sling on the rifle in the photo with the holster look similar, the sling on the rifle in the BYP doesn't seem to even resemble it. look at the photo in comment 260

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"Posted 10 July 2015 - 11:26 PM

Gary Murr, on 30 Jun 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:snapback.png

One should also be aware in reading this bumped thread that the WCC did not make 6.5mm Carcano ammunition that was "loaded with...bullets that were .264" in diameter." As I believe I indicated elsewhere in a thread on this forum, the 6.5mm Carcano ammunition manufactured by the WCC, and in particular the bullet component, was constructed utilizing specifications from Italian ballistic drawings/schematics supplied to Western by the U. S. Army Ordnance Department, diagrams acquired by the army as part of the massive quantities of "paperwork" confiscated by Allied forces during their liberation of Europe in 1944, 1945. I possess 60 rounds of this ammunition, from three different lot numbers, and the average bullet diameter size is just slightly over .2677".

Following the assassination, SA Robert A. Frazier of the FBI had in his possession CE399, a 6.5mm Carcano bullet made by the Western Cartridge Co., plus the unfired 6.5mm Carcano cartridge found in C2766, also made by the Western Cartridge Co. On top of this, the FBI also purchased several boxes of WCC 6.5mm Carcano cartridges.

As part of his testimony to the WC, Frazier stated the dimensions of these WCC 6.5mm Carcano bullets that he had measured in his laboratory.

What diameter do you think he found the WCC bullets to be, and do you believe his measuring was accurate?"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some very interesting discussions but, I have yet to receive a reply to my question, although I am sure this post has been read many times.

Robert, are you going to give us the answer soon?

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The sling on the rifle in the photo with the holster look similar, the sling on the rifle in the BYP doesn't seem to even resemble it. look at the photo in comment 260

I believe the entire Alba situation was used to suggest the sling was made for Oswald as opposed to provided and atached to the rifle by whoever it was that left it on the 6th floor.

I'd suggest that either no sling was sent and this other thing was used - some say it looks like a rope, I think it may be the cloth standard sling that Klein's says they send with rifles tha do not request a specific sling....

Point remain..

The BYPs are composites... the black clothing seen in the image was never found in Oswald's possessions...

I've seen the original, as have a few people who do the looking. While Roscoe White may have helped create the final product, I do not think it is he in the photo... there are other names to consider - but since the sources are unconfirmed I'll just leave it at that.

THAT rifle - I do believe I am in the process of proving via this essay I'm trying to finish - was never at Klein's along with the other 100 rifles in that shipment. In fact, there is not one shred of evidence which support that Klein's ever shipped or had in inventory these rilfes... only that 10 of 520 packing slips - one of which with C2766 listed - were used to create the evidence that Klein's rec'd that shipment.

I will prove otherwise. It's called "closed loop evidence" . As long as the evidence corroborates itself it can be believed. If it does not corroborate with any other process or order of shipment received (or that info is never offered to corroborate) we have a tautological presentation of evidence...

Slip #3620 with carton #3376 = Feb shipment = VC document = Blank Order = Hidell = Oswald

Except the only shipment related by the man who originally offered the slips is to June 1962 not Feb 1963.

And as much as DVP and other LNers cannot fathom it, each and every item in Evidence IS the conspiracy, NOT the investigation of the event... except for JFK's shirt and JAcket - there is no way to spin that to incriminate Oswald.

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"Posted 10 July 2015 - 11:26 PM

Gary Murr, on 30 Jun 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:snapback.png

One should also be aware in reading this bumped thread that the WCC did not make 6.5mm Carcano ammunition that was "loaded with...bullets that were .264" in diameter." As I believe I indicated elsewhere in a thread on this forum, the 6.5mm Carcano ammunition manufactured by the WCC, and in particular the bullet component, was constructed utilizing specifications from Italian ballistic drawings/schematics supplied to Western by the U. S. Army Ordnance Department, diagrams acquired by the army as part of the massive quantities of "paperwork" confiscated by Allied forces during their liberation of Europe in 1944, 1945. I possess 60 rounds of this ammunition, from three different lot numbers, and the average bullet diameter size is just slightly over .2677".

Following the assassination, SA Robert A. Frazier of the FBI had in his possession CE399, a 6.5mm Carcano bullet made by the Western Cartridge Co., plus the unfired 6.5mm Carcano cartridge found in C2766, also made by the Western Cartridge Co. On top of this, the FBI also purchased several boxes of WCC 6.5mm Carcano cartridges.

As part of his testimony to the WC, Frazier stated the dimensions of these WCC 6.5mm Carcano bullets that he had measured in his laboratory.

What diameter do you think he found the WCC bullets to be, and do you believe his measuring was accurate?"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some very interesting discussions but, I have yet to receive a reply to my question, although I am sure this post has been read many times.

Robert, are you going to give us the answer soon?

I guess I'm going to have to answer the question myself, as the person it is directed towards is not responding. If you're interested, I have bumped an old thread of mine titled "How a Popular Misconception Gave Away a Lie by the FBI". It deals with the Carcano ammunition, CE399 and FBI SA Robert A. Frazier.

From the Warren Commission testimony of SA Robert A. Frazier, FBI, describing the spent 6.5mm Carcano bullet referred to as CE 399:

"Mr. FRAZIER - The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. Its diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length--possibly it would be better to put it in inches rather than millimeters The diameter is .267 inches, and a length of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 inches."

While I believe Frazier actually obtained the figure of 6.65 mm by measuring (or guessing), he likely obtained the diameter of .267" (actually .2677") and the length of 1.185" from a text, as these are correct dimensions but do not match the above photo, as do his diameter and land impression width measurements.

It should be pointed out here that the diameter of 6.65 mm Frazier obtained is impossible for a 6.5mm Carcano bullet. Most 6.5mm rifles shoot a bullet .264" in diameter, while the Carcano shoots a bullet .268" (.2677" actually) in diameter. However, 6.65 mm works out to .2618" and, outside of one experimental Swiss cartridge made for NATO, there is not a rifle I know that shoots a bullet this diameter. It would be easy to forgive Frazier this mistake and blame it on the fact CE 399 was flattened but, Frazier not only had the unfired bullet found in the chamber of C2766 to measure, the FBI also purchased WCC 6.5mm ammo. How Frazier came up with a diameter of 6.65 mm is still a mystery.

If we convert the length measurement of 1.185" to Metric, we get a length of 30.099 mm or 30 mm. Measuring the length of the bullet in the photo, I get 28.5 mm.

Once again, not a 6.5mm Carcano bullet."

As pointed out, the bullet measured in millimeters by Frazier, converts from 6.65 mm to .2618 inches.

Before anyone points out that CE 399 was slighty flattened at the base and difficut to measure, let me remind everyone that not only did Frazier have the pristine unfired bullet left in the chamber of C2766 to measure, he also went out and purchased several boxes of Western Cartridge Co. 6.5mm Carcano ammunition from the same lot as the cartridges allegedly purchased by Oswald.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme
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The BYPs are composites... the black clothing seen in the image was never found in Oswald's possessions...

I've seen the original, as have a few people who do the looking. While Roscoe White may have helped create the final product, I do not think it is he in the photo... there are other names to consider - but since the sources are unconfirmed I'll just leave it at that.

THAT rifle - I do believe I am in the process of proving via this essay I'm trying to finish - was never at Klein's along with the other 100 rifles in that shipment. In fact, there is not one shred of evidence which support that Klein's ever shipped or had in inventory these rilfes... only that 10 of 520 packing slips - one of which with C2766 listed - were used to create the evidence that Klein's rec'd that shipment.

I will prove otherwise. It's called "closed loop evidence" . As long as the evidence corroborates itself it can be believed. If it does not corroborate with any other process or order of shipment received (or that info is never offered to corroborate) we have a tautological presentation of evidence...

Slip #3620 with carton #3376 = Feb shipment = VC document = Blank Order = Hidell = Oswald

Except the only shipment related by the man who originally offered the slips is to June 1962 not Feb 1963.

And as much as DVP and other LNers cannot fathom it, each and every item in Evidence IS the conspiracy, NOT the investigation of the event... except for JFK's shirt and JAcket - there is no way to spin that to incriminate Oswald.

BYP: I think the camera lens had no anti-reflective coating. That is why you can see leaves on the shoes in BYP.

Illustration: The beam #5 led to a hotspot on dark areas of negatives. It is the same effect both in filters and lenses.

reflections.gif

Edited by Vitali Zhuk
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The sling on the rifle in the photo with the holster look similar, the sling on the rifle in the BYP doesn't seem to even resemble it. look at the photo in comment 260

I believe the entire Alba situation was used to suggest the sling was made for Oswald as opposed to provided and atached to the rifle by whoever it was that left it on the 6th floor.

I'd suggest that either no sling was sent and this other thing was used - some say it looks like a rope, I think it may be the cloth standard sling that Klein's says they send with rifles tha do not request a specific sling....

Point remain..

The BYPs are composites... the black clothing seen in the image was never found in Oswald's possessions...

I've seen the original, as have a few people who do the looking. While Roscoe White may have helped create the final product, I do not think it is he in the photo... there are other names to consider - but since the sources are unconfirmed I'll just leave it at that.

THAT rifle - I do believe I am in the process of proving via this essay I'm trying to finish - was never at Klein's along with the other 100 rifles in that shipment. In fact, there is not one shred of evidence which support that Klein's ever shipped or had in inventory these rilfes... only that 10 of 520 packing slips - one of which with C2766 listed - were used to create the evidence that Klein's rec'd that shipment.

I will prove otherwise. It's called "closed loop evidence" . As long as the evidence corroborates itself it can be believed. If it does not corroborate with any other process or order of shipment received (or that info is never offered to corroborate) we have a tautological presentation of evidence...

Slip #3620 with carton #3376 = Feb shipment = VC document = Blank Order = Hidell = Oswald

Except the only shipment related by the man who originally offered the slips is to June 1962 not Feb 1963.

And as much as DVP and other LNers cannot fathom it, each and every item in Evidence IS the conspiracy, NOT the investigation of the event... except for JFK's shirt and JAcket - there is no way to spin that to incriminate Oswald.

you have piqued my interest with this essay you're working on. i'm eager to see it.

(and I don't think that "fathoming" is their specialty.)

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